View source for Forum:Temporary forums/Meta-Crisis Doctor

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== Opening post ==
{{first pic|Meta-Crisis Ten.jpg|See this guy? He's is the [[Meta-Crisis Doctor]], but the Wiki seems to refuse to accept that.}}
The exact name of the [[Tenth Doctor]]'s [[Tenth Doctor's hand|hand]]'s [[Tenth Doctor (Journey's End)|new body person thing]] was never clear to be begin with, but over the years, it seems that his name is near unaminously accepted as the "Meta-Crisis Doctor", but his page hasn't been renamed to that name. In part, I feel this is because of the... [[Talk: Tenth Doctor (Journey's End)/Archive 3|talk page "dicussions" about it]] which often lead into vast arguments over continuity and was eventually resolved by @[[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] who took a neutral stance and named the character's page [[Tenth Doctor (Journey's End)]]. However, I feel this could be improved.

So I suggest we definitively rename the article to [[Meta-Crisis Doctor]] (''not'', mind you, [[Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor]] which is rarely used and is much clunkier), rename [[:Category:Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor images]] and [[:Category:Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor stories]] to [[:Category:Meta-Crisis Doctor images]] and [[:Category:Meta-Crisis Doctor stories]], and rename [[Theory:Timeline - Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor]] to [[Theory:Timeline - Meta-Crisis Doctor]].

I want to approach this rename from a two pronged angle, with two new good reasons.

[[File:Meta-Crisis and Rose kiss.jpg|thumb|Awww lovely. Oh and look, the BBC is using "Meta-Crisis Doctor"...]]
# The name "Meta-Crisis Doctor" has been used in valid sources, those being [[PROSE]]: ''[[Citation Needed (short story)|Citation Needed]]''. (The version of the ebook I'm working with renders it as "metacrisis Doctor" but I think that is a transcribing issue.)
# The "Fugitive Doctor" precedent allows us to name articles a certain name — without a conjecture tag — if both the official marketing and fans use the name. This was a codification of the standard indirectly set up by [[T:ROMANA]] and has since been applied to [[Unbound Doctor]] and [[9.5th Doctor]].
::: To support the second prong, I will support evidence of its use: [https://www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-features/how-can-they-be-back-the-doctor-and-donna-noble-return-to-doctor-who here], [https://www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-features/class-lady-christina-the-eleventh-doctor-tales-and-more-big-finish-doctor-who here], [https://www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-features/steven-moffat-says-no-to-bringing-back-tenth-doctor-clone here], [https://forbiddenplanet.com/374338-doctor-who-the-60th-anniversary-diamond-collection-t-shirt-the-meta-crisis-doctor/ here], [https://www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-features/five-other-doctors-from-50-years-of-doctor-who here], and, well, I could go on and on. As for fans... just Google "Meta-Crisis Doctor", it pulls over 23,000,000 results. If that's not widely used, I don't know what is. If that's not enough for you... see [https://twitter.com/search?q=meta-crisis%20doctor&src=typed_query&f=top on Twitter, if you search "Meta-Crisis Doctor"], lots results from both official sources and fans. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 15:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

== Discussion ==

I '''support''' this proposal to move the article to Meta-Crisis Doctor. I was honestly shocked this wasn't already the case when I discovered what we were calling his article, because it's such a strange title. [[User:Pluto2|Pluto2]][[User talk:Pluto2|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:51, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

: I '''Support''' this 100% [[User:Time God Eon|Time God Eon]] [[User talk:Time God Eon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:07, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

:: I'm baffled as to why it isn't already "Meta-Crisis Doctor". Full agreement from me. [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:13, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

::: I ''support'' this. In cases like this, we should use the name that users would instinctively search for. [[Meta-Crisis Doctor]] is just the best term for the story. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 16:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I '''support''' the move to Meta-Crisis Doctor. [[User:MrThermomanPreacher|MrThermomanPreacher]] [[User talk:MrThermomanPreacher|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

:Can you give the specifics of how ''[[Citation Needed (short story)|Citation Needed]]'' refers to him like so? I also note that I'm pretty sure the Fugitive Doctor standard doesn't apply, because he ''has'' a name, it's just one fans hate. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:21, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

::Complete support. The only detractor from the name I would be able to think of would be if another Meta-Crisis Doctor along the line (even though I think those chances are slim). [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

::: Actually Najawin, the issue is he has three names. ''Corin'', ''Josh Smith'', and ''the Doctor'' in contradicting stories. Finding a name appropriate from his origin story is simply the best resolution when keeping [[T:NPOV]] in mind. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 22:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

: Absolutely support. If there's ever another metacritical incarnation, we can deal with it then. No point making out current coverage worse for stuff that doesn't exist yet, and may never. Additionally, any in-universe name this incarnation takes, such as "Corin" or "John Smith", is not what a reader will search for, and we can't choose one over the other per [[T:NPOV]]. [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:08, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

::Oh, huh, first I heard about Josh Smith. Yeah, that's also an issue. But still, Fugitive doesn't seem to be an applicable standard. (I just want to make sure the context from ''Citation Needed'' is appropriate. If it is, I'm all aboard.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

:::{{quote|TWELFTH BODY: See "<u>Metacrisis, numerical confusion of</u>".|Encyclopedia Gallifreya|Citation_Needed_(short_story)}}

:::I believe this is the quote in question. [[User:Time God Eon|Time God Eon]] [[User talk:Time God Eon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

::::If that's all there is, I'm absolutely against this proposal. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:46, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

::::: I am not sure what you mean about the Fugitive Doctor precedent not applying. AFAIK, "Meta-Crisis Doctor" is the only name used outside of "the Doctor" which all Doctors are called anyway. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 00:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

:::::the same "Metacrisis, numerical confusion of:" gets used again in relation to Twelve and Thirteen not matching their numbers, but that's all that's mentioned in Citation Needed. [[User:Time God Eon|Time God Eon]] [[User talk:Time God Eon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:53, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

: I am in support of this name. While I do not believe that the use of ''Citation Needed'' is particularly compelling, I do believe that the use of it on the official Instagram is more than sufficient --particularly in conjunction with its overwhelming use in fandom and the fact that the prefix of "Meta-Crisis" is aggressively in-universe. We have been handed an intuitive, clean, accurate, and frequently-used-in-fandom name by the official license holders. It would be foolish not to use it. All other naming options (e.g., Tenth Doctor (Journey's End), Corin, or John Smith) are either inaccurate, contradicted in a good deal of sources, or too vague. This name is accurate in ALL sources and is used pretty much universally within fandom. Let us not look a gift horse in the mouth. I ''bombastically'' support this proposal. [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

:: That's about my thoughts as well and while I am in certainly favor of the proposed change, I believe that even if we don't change the page to [[Meta-Crisis Doctor]], it probably shouldn't call him the Tenth Doctor since he's never actually called that to my knowledge. and is in fact called out at times as being not-tenth. So I think that as a plan B, we could go with [[The Doctor (Journey's End)]] instead, as at least it's more consistent with what he actually called. [[User:Time God Eon|Time God Eon]] [[User talk:Time God Eon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:11, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
::: I am going to go against the grain and say I am against this for reasons highlighted by Najawin and one with in the talk page for said Doctor. Eon has made an alternative suggestion that I am all for however that of [[the Doctor (Journey’s End)]] which I am fully behind. [[User:Anastasia Cousins|Anastasia Cousins]] [[User talk:Anastasia Cousins|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 09:42, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I support this. [[User:SherlockTheII|SherlockTheII]] [[User talk:SherlockTheII|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

:I support this and agree with [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] above. [[User:66 Seconds|66 Seconds]] [[User talk:66 Seconds|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:29, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

::Far more important to me than in-universe precedent is the fact that "Meta-Crisis Doctor" is the official name used by the BBC and widely in fandom. This is common sense. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 19:18, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
:::I '''support''' on common sense grounds as well. I agree that the ''Citation Needed'' justification is pretty weak, but the overwhelming use of the name, partnered with the contradictory in-universe names, makes Meta-Crisis the best name, in my opinion. [[User:Schreibenheimer|Schreibenheimer]] [[User talk:Schreibenheimer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I completely '''support''' the renaming of this page. There really should be no excuse to make pages ''harder'' to find for no real reason. And as you said now with the [[Fugitive Doctor]] and [[War Doctor]]s, this rename makes the most sense. [[User:StevieGLiverpool|StevieGLiverpool]] [[User talk:StevieGLiverpool|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:00, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

== Conclusion ==
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No sense in drawing this out. 

To begin with, I think '''it's been shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that [[Tenth Doctor (Journey's End)]] is a suboptimal name'''; [[The Doctor (Journey's End)]], if we wanted a wholly neutral name, would already be superior. 

But moreover, '''there is broad support for applying the [[Fugitive Doctor]] precedent and naming this page [[Meta-Crisis Doctor]], in line with BBC marketing and common fan parlance'''. The conflict between various sources on whether he adopted the name "John Smith", "Corin" or simply "the Doctor", with none of them clearly beating the others in terms of breadth of usage, means we really can't use ''any'' of these names, and should go back to his original, non-controversial appearance, where he is just "the Doctor", and is defined in terms of the Meta-Crisis. It's simply the best, most neutral non-dabbed name for this page. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:21, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
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