View source for Forum:Validity: The Sleeze Brothers

{{Archive}}[[Category:Inclusion debates]]
==Original post==
This should be a fairly simple one. [[The Sleeze Brothers (series)|The Sleeze Brothers]] was a comic series published by [[Marvel Comics]], featuring the [[Sleeze Brothers]], who first appeared in ''[[Follow That TARDIS! (comic story)|Follow That TARDIS!]]'', as well as various other elements from that step.

It was originally invalidated for "making no attempt to be set in the DWU". Now, I'm not sure how well this argument holds up today, because it also makes no attempt to ''not'' be set in the DWU. Our general policy nowadays is that if there is no evidence that it isn't intended to be set in the DWU, it's valid, and I think there's no real reason for these to be invalid. 

(I will note that there are some minor fourth wall breaks, but I don't think that these are at all indicative of negative authorial intent.)

What do people think? [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|📢]]  15:23, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
==Discussion==
See [[Thread:210741]] at [[User:SOTO/Forum Archive/Inclusion debates 1]] and [[Thread:283828]] at [[User:SOTO/Forum Archive/Inclusion debates 2]].

I note that at the time Czech specifically affirms that the entirety of [[T:VS]] is being used to disqualify the work, rather than the text of the four rules. Since this is no longer the operating procedure of this wiki (/grumbles/), this itself might be sufficient. W/e. Just passing on the threads. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:07, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
: I think this whole thing is actually a case of "there's new evidence to be considered here that the old debate simply missed". A [[Sontaran]] appears at a party in the third story ''[[The Bugger (comic story)|The Bugger]]'', and a [[Dalek]] appears in a crowd of aliens in the sixth story, ''[[The Malteeze Egg! (comic story)|The Malteeze Egg!]]''. (And [[Death's Head]] makes a cameo in ''[[Down in the Sewers (comic story)|Down in the Sewers]]'', for what that's worth.) I'd say "repeatedly shows prominent DWU aliens in the background" is much stronger evidence of positive DWU intent than a negative "makes no attempt to ''not'' be set in the DWU". [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

:: I think it should be valid, at least from what I've heard elsewhere. [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:14, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

::: [[File:Superhero donations.jpg|thumb|Several [[superhero]]es, including the [[Sleeze Brothers]], donate to [[Comic Relief (in-universe)|Comic Relief]]. ([[COMIC]]: {{cs|The Totally Stonking, Surprisingly Educational And Utterly Mindboggling Comic Relief Comic (comic story)}})]]Oh, and I think it's worth noting that we now have [[The Totally Stonking, Surprisingly Educational And Utterly Mindboggling Comic Relief Comic (comic story)|another source]] featuring the [[Sleeze Brothers]], since that means that the valid sources for the characters are their first appearance and a Comic Relief extravaganza (not that this really changes anything, just thought I'd mention it). [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
:::: to me it feels like a classic [[Vienna (series)]]sittuation. With a standard a “universe of its own” being misinterpreted as an entirely different universe not a different story which is unlinked to Doctor who. It is one which despite being set in the same universe has nothing really to do with events beyond itself and the scope of its own narrative. Thus is believe in validity. [[User:Anastasia Cousins|Anastasia Cousins]] [[User talk:Anastasia Cousins|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:48, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

::::: As far as I can throw it, for years we've officially allowed coverage of these stories. So since that was always the biggest hangup, we should cover the series as valid - the shared universe at play is quite obvious, to the extent that ''[[Follow That TARDIS! (comic story)|Follow That TARDIS!]]'' is obviously set in the same universe as these stories. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 05:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


===The evidence===
I read the whole Sleeze Brothers series a while back (as in, before forums had returned) and was looking forward to a validity discussion. I just somehow never saw it already existed. So here are my thoughts. A lot of them.

To be honest, I don't think this is as incredibly straightforward as it may seem, but I still support validity. My main concern is also a possible misunderstanding/rumor that needs to be dispelled: despite debuting in ''[[Follow That TARDIS! (comic story)|Follow That TARDIS!]]'', the characters and universe of Sleeze Brothers were not "spun off" from DWM. They were created by [[John Carnell]] and [[Andy Lanning]] beforehand, as opposed to as an inherently ''Doctor Who''-related concept. This is detailed by editor [[Richard Starkings]] in [https://www.balloontales.com/letters-from-america/ this interview] as well as [https://elephantmen.blogspot.com/2009/01/sleeze-brothers-animation.html this blog post]. Due to an agreement Marvel UK needed two new series, so Starkings got [[Simon Furman]] to create a series for our mechanoid acquaintance [[Death's Head]], which became [[Death's Head (1988)|''Death's Head'' (1988)]] and Carnell and Lanning to create a series for their pre-existing idea of the Sleeze Brothers. In a very unique case, Carnell and Lanning actually own the rights to the series, which they still have. This led to an attempt to bring them back in 2008 in [[Image Comics]]'s ''Elephantmen'', an animated web series ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F81GrwqVeU trailer]), and [https://web.archive.org/web/20080614195300/http://www.sleeze-brothers.com:80/ a website], all of which seem to have sadly fallen through. (That website's about page also corroborates the creation of the series, but does not mention DWM. There is a preview of ''Follow That TARDIS!'' there, though.)

So yeah, the thing is, ''Follow that TARDIS!'' was not the origin of a spin-off, but a crossover. However, what's notable to me is that it also served the purpose of previewing the series which was scheduled to release later that year, much as ''[[The Crossroads of Time (comic story)|The Crossroads of Time]]'' did with Death's Head. The worldbuilding of the soon-to-come series is very much alluded to, such as [[spond]]s, "[[icehole (slur)|icehole]]", and President "[[Sinatra]]", who was renamed "Sinartra" in the actual series. I can't find explicit confirmation of this, but it very much seems a conscious decision that ''Follow That TARDIS!'' was the publication debut of the Sleeze Brothers by means of DWM. I also checked the behind-the-scenes interviews in the [[A Cold Day in Hell! (graphic novel)|''A Cold Day in Hell!'' graphic novel]] which reprinted it, (interviews reprinted and actually expanded [https://downthetubes.net/british-comics-reference/british-tv-related-comic-strips/a-cold-day-at-marvel-uk-doctor-who-comic-memories/ here]) and while it's sadly short, Carnell said the strip was meant to be a collaboration between various artists at Marvel UK ("a melting pot of talented nutcases"), and that while he expected disdain from hardcore DW fans for bringing back [[the Monk]] for this, "it seemed like a good laugh — the bungling Sleeze Brothers, getting caught up in an adventure and being none the wise about their effects on space time. I think we pulled it off okay." [[DWM 147]]'s indicia also features a separate copyright for ''The Sleeze Brothers''. As the web version says, a reader wrote in about the comic and the response was that they'd be getting their own series.

Now, for the series itself. As I said, there is continuity with the worldbuilding in ''Follow That TARDIS!'', though not any actual references to it (as far as I know). [[User:Scrooge MacDuck]] points out the existence of DWU aliens in the series, which is what I'd like to address. The setting of ''The Sleeze Brothers'' is [[the Big Apple]], a futuristic version of [[New York City]] sometime in the late 21st century. It's full of goofy aliens, robots, and the like, kind of like ''Futurama'' but more in the style of ''MAD'' magazine. (Though, there is a significant amount of continued worldbuilding in the few appearances there are.) All three of the appearances Scrooge mentioned are in ''[[wikipedia:Wimmelbilderbuch|Wimmelbilder]]''-like background scenes, kind of like ''[[Party Animals (comic story)|Party Animals]]'', but the context actually matters. In ''[[The Bugger (comic story)|The Bugger]]'', a Sontaran is seen at a diplomatic party being held by President Sinatra, where several alien species have gathered, and in ''[[The Malteeze Egg (comic story)|The Malteeze Egg]]'', the Dalek is seen in a gathering of "warlords of the galaxy", whom a religious group has gathered to convince them become peaceful. (On the next page, when this inevitably fails at the fault of the Sleeze Brothers, a different alien shouts "Exterminate exterminate!") And, though not inherently DWU himself, Death's Head, the "[[Freelance Peacekeeping Agent]]", is seen in line at a black market weapons shop in ''[[Down in the Sewer (comic story)|Down in the Sewer]]''.

My point is, all of these appearances make contextual sense for these characters to appear in, rather than just random background cameos for the sake of it. However, at the same time I feel it is important to mention there are a few characters from other, unrelated series as well— from what I could find, [[E.T.]] (or a lookalike) is at the president's party, and what appear to be [[Spock]] and [[Bugs Bunny]] are in the scene with the Dalek, which is in fact described as an "Emergency relief Cast of Thousands supplied by [[Anthony Williams (artist)|Anthony Williams]]" on the credits page. Due to this, I worry of placing undue emphasis on what are really Easter eggs. Are they just visual gags, or nods to the connection with ''Doctor Who''? Personally, I feel a bit of both. The appearance of Death's Head actually strengthens the idea for me that they were general nods to the shared Marvel UK fictional universe, which is very evident if you read the interviews and archived website's chronicles of how the series came to be. And like Carnell said, it's notable that ''Follow That TARDIS!'' bothered to bring back the character of the Monk, rather than just the Doctor.

So, the universe of the Sleeze Brothers ("the Big Apple") is definitely DWU-adjacent  at the very least (and regardless of if it's an actual parallel universe, which it [[w:c:marvel:Earth-89547|might be]], but that was irrelevant at the time and I think is now too). The question in the original thread was "whether the authors of the comic series ''genuinely'' meant their work to take place in the DWU", and that there needed to be evidence in the positive, not just absence of a negative. Though not created ''for'' the DWU, the Sleeze Brothers, and more importantly their world, did intentionally debut in a solidly DWU story featuring both the Seventh Doctor and the Monk and featured DWU concepts later on, even if only as small nods. To me, I think that is evidence enough that there was intent of the Sleeze Brothers' world being in a shared universe with ''Doctor Who''. 

Finally, I'd like to address what is actually up for discussion here. Perhaps these shall forever remain red links, but perhaps not, so I shall link them. The Sleeze Brothers universe appears in:
*''[[Follow That TARDIS! (comic story)|Follow That TARDIS!]]'' ([[DWM 147]], April 1989)
*The 1989 miniseries, which probably ought to be given a separate page from the ''Sleeze Brothers'' series itself
**''[[Nice 'n' Sleezy (comic story)|Nice 'n' Sleezy]]'' ([[TSB 1]], August 1989)
**''[[Reel to Real (comic story)|Reel to Real]]'' ([[TSB 2]], September 1989)
**''[[The Bugger (comic story)|The Bugger]]'' ([[TSB 3]], October 1989)
**''[[Murder in Space (comic story)|Murder in Space]]'' ([[TSB 4]], November 1989)
**''[[Down in the Sewer (comic story)|Down in the Sewer]]'' ([[TSB 5]], December 1989)
**''[[The Malteeze Egg (comic story)|The Malteeze Egg]]'' ([[TSB 6]], January 1990)
*''[[The Sleeze Brothers File (graphic novel)|The Sleeze Brothers File]]'', a graphic novel collecting the strips of the above six issues (1990) in the guise of a case file
**''[[The Sleeze Brothers File (short story)|The Sleeze Brothers File]]'', a transcript-style short story preceding contents of the comics
*''[[Some Like It Fresh (comic story)|Some Like It Fresh]]'', a 1991 one-shot issue
*''[[Saturday Night Special (comic story)|Saturday Night Special]]'', published in ''[[Epic Comics Book Two]]'' of the anthology series ''[[Epic (anthology series)|Epic]]'' (1992)
*''[[The Sleeze Brothers: Private Investigators (comic story)|The Sleeze Brothers: Private Investigators]]'', published in issue 16 of ''[[Elephantmen (series)|Elephantmen]]'' (February 2009)

If you read this, thanks, and I'd like to hear your opinion. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

: Thank you very much for the detailed history! Note again that under current policy all those redlinks ''should'' be created, albeit as invalid. 

: I agree with much of your presentation of what you've found, and continue to support validity; but in point of fact I want to argue against the "not actually a spin-off" framing. I think ''Follow That TARDIS!'' is a textbook example of a [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoorlyDisguisedPilot backdoor pilot] — a proof-of-concept/Episode 0 of a would-be-distinct series that's released as part of the parent series. In ''Doctor Who'', we might be used to the "create Third Sontaran From Left as an incidental character in one serial, then give him his own Big Finish range thirty years down the line in a way the original writer couldn't possibly have foreseen" sort of spin-of, but in the wider entertainment industry, "the creators are itching to make this its own thing from the start, but give it its start as part of an established brand" is very much a normal, expected way for the origin of a "spin-off" of anything to play out. No one considers that the result is a "retroactive crossover" between the old and new series! That's not how the terminology works! A spin-off doesn't cease to be a spin-off just because we learn it was the writers' secret intention all along. 

: …Otherwise, ''Torchwood'' wouldn't count as a spin-off, is the thing, because RTD was already planning it in parallel to the Series 1 and Series 2 arcs, and he made Jack leave a certain way and put an earlier Torchwood into Series 2 as the baddie ''in order to set up the Torchwood series the way he wanted''. That doesn't make ''Torchwood'' a non-covered series and ''Army of Ghosts'' a "crossover". I use the example provocatively, but quite seriously; ''Torchwood'' shares such ''Sleeze'' traits as a very distinct tone from ''Doctor Who'' and a general lack of reliance on continuity to the main series aside from occasional easily-ignored "nods". Give or take a Cyberbikini. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 09:56, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

::I'm in full agreement with you, and that's actually part of what I was trying to say— I just perhaps worded it poorly with spin-off vs crossover. The idea I was trying to clarify as being false is that the Sleeze Brothers were created specifically for ''Follow That TARDIS!'', and ''then'' got their own series. Having read the series it's evident this isn't the case, but when I had only read the DWM story and had no knowledge other than "they got their own series" I was under that impression. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:55, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I wanted to bring up a few things about ''The Sleeze Brothers'' I've found since the last message. Mainly, I've realized there is a bit more of even more obscure ''Sleeze Brothers'' material to consider.

* Firstly, and in light of in light of [[Forum:Temporary forums/Trailers]], there's this [https://starlogged.blogspot.com/2012/07/1989-sleeze-brothers-house-ad.html "house ad"] that probably appeared in multiple publications. At the very least, the website with that image has it labeled from "Hulk Summer Special 1989", which was apparently a precursor to ''[[The Incredible Hulk Presents]]''. I think this is worth covering, but not sure about what to call it. I also think further research into its publication is warranted, but at least we have one thing it was published in. I also found an Instagram post saying it was in [[DH88 8|issue 8 of ''Death's Head'']], which we already have a page on.

* Secondly is a much simpler advertisement, which at the very least appeared on the pages of [[Death's Head (1988)|''Death's Head'' (1988)]], if not others. You can see it with a different ad for ''Dragon's Claws'' on [https://oink.blog/2023/12/03/deaths-head-2-killer-comedy/ this conveniently recent blog post]. But, while it's certainly different from other advertisements, I am less certain if this should count as a "work of fiction" under Rule 1. Also, as a note either one of these could potentially be considered first appearances for some characters...

* Then there's the [https://web.archive.org/web/20080614195300/http://www.sleeze-brothers.com:80/ official website] from 2008 I shared earlier, which seems to have had grand plans that were not to be. While the comics and animated series never made it, this website still has some content to consider. One is a section on character profiles that I think has some new information, and is worth covering. The other is a Flash game called "Shoot President Sinartra". I don't think it passes Rule 1, it's basically just whack-a-mole. It ''could'' have a page like [[Thirteen (video game)|''Thirteen'' (video game)]], but I think we'd be better off having a page about this website which includes it. There's a surprising amount of content on it. (This site is also what gives names to some of the stories, which were possibly unnamed in print.)

* [[Eaglemoss Collections|Eaglemoss]] published "Marvel Fact Files" in 2013-2016, and it seems issue #97 had a page on the Sleeze Brothers. I don't think there's anything new, and it seems to be from a real-world perspective but describing in-universe events.

* Lastly, it seems the Sleeze Brothers were due to return in [https://bleedingcool.com/comics/sleeze-brothers-sequels-for-frazer-brown-tales-from-the-quarantine/ a Kickstarter comic stuck in development hell since 2020]. It's not out yet (and maybe never will be), but I wanted to make note of it. The colorist, Darren Stephens, posted the first page [https://www.instagram.com/dscomiccolours/p/Cp8GhcqsDKE/ here], though.

The original comics are still what's most important, but in general if the consensus is reached that the "''Sleeze Brothers'' world" is part of the DWU as I believe it is, I think it's fair to say we can cover anything else like this that's found or released. But first, I'd like to hear from anyone else... [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

:Small update: I missed that the article linked to indicated that the Sleeze Brothers comic was only one page to begin with, so technically we have the whole thing. However, I'm not sure if the Instagram post from the colorist counts as an official release. It does seem like ''Tales from the Quarantine'' not being released caused quite the stir. And apparently a PDF with only some stories was sent to backers, but who knows what stories are in it. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

:Based on Chubby's evidence, I'm all for validating Sleeze Brothers.[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:00, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

== Conclusion ==
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First and foremost, there is clear consensus and evidence to validate ''[[The Sleeze Brothers (series)|The Sleeze Brothers]]'' under [[T:VS]]. The series feels like a pretty typical spin-off to me and, as mentioned by [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]], is very similar to ''[[The Crossroads of Time (comic story)|The Crossroads of Time]]'' and [[Death's Head]], both that and this being a case of a {{w|backdoor pilot}}, a fairly standard method of creating spin-offs as mentioned by [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]]. ''[[Vienna (series)|Vienna]]'' feels like another solid example of this type of thing. Spin-offs are usually valid and this should likely be no exception. Looking at the 4 rules, 1 and 3 are trivial. For rule 2, the [[Sleeze Brothers]], as mentioned by [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]], are creator-owned so pose no issues. For the other [[DWU]] elements, [[Marvel Comics UK]] was publishing material with the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' license at that time so it can be safely presumed that [[Epic Comics]], being an imprint of [[Marvel Comics]] (who owned Marvel Comics UK and were also reprinting ''Doctor Who'' material themselves around this time) had the license to do this as well. With regard to rule 4, the inclusion of [[Dalek]]s, [[Sontaran]]s and Death's Head suggests that this series was always supposed to fit into the wider Marvel Comics (or at least Marvel Comics UK) [[Marvel multiverse|multiverse]] which definitely, at least at that time, included ''Doctor Who''. As such, seeming as there does not seem to be any evidence to contradict this, I am going to rule that this passes rule 4, hence passing all 4 rules and being valid.

One thing that [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] mentioned that didn't get discussed further is that the [[Sleeze Brothers]] and some other characters and concepts may have actually debuted in adverts before their appearance in ''[[Follow That TARDIS! (comic story)|Follow That TARDIS!]]''. However, as these adverts are auxiliary to the actual series and weren't intended to be the character's debut, I am going to rule that this does not remove said characters' [[DWU]]-ness under rule 2. For example, lets say there was a ''[[Class (series)|Class]]'' minisode released before the first episode that didn't feature [[Coal Hill Academy]] or the [[Twelfth Doctor]] (things which the real first episode did), we would still consider the ''Class'' characters to be inherently DWU characters.

To be clear, all of this opens up the following for valid coverage (thanks to [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] for the research):
*''[[Nice 'n' Sleezy (comic story)|Nice 'n' Sleezy]]''
*''[[Reel to Real (comic story)|Reel to Real]]''
*''[[The Bugger (comic story)|The Bugger]]''
*''[[Murder in Space (comic story)|Murder in Space]]''
*''[[Down in the Sewer (comic story)|Down in the Sewer]]''
*''[[The Malteeze Egg (comic story)|The Malteeze Egg]]''
*''[[The Sleeze Brothers File (short story)|The Sleeze Brothers File]]''
*''[[Some Like It Fresh (comic story)|Some Like It Fresh]]''
*''[[Saturday Night Special (comic story)|Saturday Night Special]]''
*''[[The Sleeze Brothers: Private Investigators (comic story)|The Sleeze Brothers: Private Investigators]]''
*''[[The Sleeze Brothers (1989 comic story)|The Sleeze Brothers]]'' (this is the "house ad" mentiioned by [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] - I'm open to discussion of a better name on [[Talk:The Sleeze Brothers (1989 comic story)]])
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20081120193636/http://www.sleeze-brothers.com/characterprofiles.htm Each of the character profiles from the website] in a manner similar to the character profiles of ''[[The Spiral Politic Database]]''

Additionally, [[Untitled (1988 comic story)|the untitled 1-page advert mentioned by Chubby Potato]] should receive invalid coverage as I don't think it passes rule 4. I'm open to further discussion on this. 

The Kickstarter, development hell, strip can receive coverage as an unreleased story, likely as [[The Sleeze Brothers (unreleased comic story)]] as I can't see an individual title for it. The release on the colourist's Instagram was likely not a licensed, official release and doesn't seem to be available to view unless you follow the colourist's Instagram.

The following publications, issues and series should also receieve pages:
*[[The Sleeze Brothers (1989 series)|''The Sleeze Brothers'' (1989)]] (this should receieve a separate page from the wider ''[[The Sleeze Brothers (series)|The Sleeze Brothers]]'' series)
*[[TSB 1]] - [[TSB 6]]
*''[[The Sleeze Brothers File (graphic novel)|The Sleeze Brothers File]]''
*The comic book issue which ''[[Some Like It Fresh (comic story)|Some Like It Fresh]]'' was printed in should probably have a separate page, depending on what's in the indicia
*''[[Epic (anthology series)|Epic]]''
*''[[Epic Comics Book Two]]''
*''[[Elephantmen (series)|Elephantmen]]''
*[[ELE 16]] (''Elephantmen'' 16 - this is the closest to matching the spirit of [[T:MAGS]] as I could come up with but I'm open to suggestions)
*[[The Sleeze Brothers website]]/[[sleeze-brothers.com]] (this page should discuss the ''Shoot President Sinartra'' which I agree with [[User:Cubby Potato|Cubby Potato]] shouldn't receieve its own page)
*[[MFF 97]] (''Marvel Fact Files'' 97)

Thanks to everyone that contributed! [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|☎]] 15:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
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