Howling:Battle of Medusa Cascade never happened: Difference between revisions

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-Okay, so are we all agreed that the Dalek invasion of Earth and the subsequent Battle of the Medusa Cascade are still erased from time by the Time Cracks? [[Special:Contributions/195.188.243.175|195.188.243.175]]<sup>[[User talk:195.188.243.175#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:45, February 16, 2012 (UTC){{Forumheader|The Howling}}
+Okay, so are we all agreed that the Dalek invasion of Earth and the subsequent Battle of the Medusa Cascade are still erased from time by the Time Cracks? [[Special:Contributions/195.188.243.175|195.188.243.175]]<sup>[[User talk:195.188.243.175#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:45, February 16, 2012 (UTC){{archive|The Howling archives}}
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 Well, since no episode after ''The Big Bang'' has really discussed the issue, and ''The Big Bang'' itsself left it rather ambiguous, I don't think that we can make an assumption one way or the other. We can't even be 100% sure that the invasion was actually erased. Maybe Amy stayed in her house throughout the invasion, and any Daleks that came into her house fell into the crack in her wall, causing her to forget them. I'm not saying that that is particularly likely, but it is a possibility. We also can't really use the fact that characters in Torchwood and Sarah Jane still don't believe in aliens, because I don't think that anybody would be too surprised by that even if it hadn't been for the cracks. I'm sure that UNIT or Torchwood or somebody came up with some lame coverstory that most people believed within hours the Earth being returned to its original location. Even in ''The End of Time'', which featured a major event that would be at least as hard to ignore as the Dalek invasion was, Mr. Smith was able to come up with some BS coverstory, and most people would rather believe that the WiFi malfunctioned than that an alien took over all of their bodies and a planet materialized in the sky. [[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 15:51, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
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 I always assumed that the Ironsides were from ''Parting of the Ways'', and not ''Journey's End'' since the Ironsides ere exterminated for being impure. The Daleks in ''The Stolen Earth'' were made from Davros' Kaled cells, and the Doctor made a point of explaining that these were the first large group of "real" Daleks that had been encountered in the new series. The Daleks in ''Bad Wolf'', however, were made from human cells, and the Doctor made a point of explaining that these Daleks were impure and hated themselves. ''Victory of the Daleks'' never made it clear which invasion the Daleks came from. Anyway, even if they did come from the Medusa Cascade battle, and the events were erased, there are plenty of conversations in these forums trying to figure out how the cracks work, and those Daleks may have been able to exist even if the invasion didn't. It still seems a bit ridiculous to assume that an entire invasion was erased though, when all we know is that Amy had never heard of Daleks.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 01:20, March 31, 2012 (UTC)
+Which wouldn't be possible given the events of TSE/JE. Even Clyde's dad knew of them, in ''Mark of the Berserker'', in season 2 of The Sarah Jane Adventures. The dominant theory is that the Dalek invasion was undone by the Cracks, and remains undone now. [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]]<sup>[[User talk:82.2.136.93#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:55, April 1, 2012 (UTC)
+What evidence do we actually have that the invasion was undone though. The only evidence that we have is that Amy doesn't remember them. For all we know, Rory or Mels, or anybody else would remember the invasion, and Amy just missed it somehow. Maybe there were no Daleks in Leadworth, and she slept through the planets in the sky, or maybe any Daleks that were in her house were simply erased, or maybe she believed whatever lame excuse the government came up with for the planets in the sky. [[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 20:20, April 1, 2012 (UTC)
+It's not just Amy. Rory didn't recognise them in THE BIG BANG, if I remember correctly. And no government cover-up could explain away what happened in TSE/JE. [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]]<sup>[[User talk:82.2.136.93#top|talk to me]]</sup> 23:16, April 1, 2012 (UTC)
+Drugs in the water combined with a once in a thousand years alignment of the planets created the illusion of planets in the sky. I don't remember Rory ever saying whether or not he remembered the Daleks in ''The Big Bang''[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 23:22, April 1, 2012 (UTC)
+I'd say there's probably a 98% chance the Dalek invasion was never restored. [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]]<sup>[[User talk:82.2.136.93#top|talk to me]]</sup> 09:51, April 3, 2012 (UTC)
+And how did you calculate that?[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 19:05, April 3, 2012 (UTC)
+Hang on. All the business with the Cracks had already happened BEFORE the Daleks invaded, as the Doctor had already met River, who'd already experienced all of that. So the Crack had ALREADY gotten to the Daleks....except we still saw them, before they were erased. [[Special:Contributions/194.168.208.42|194.168.208.42]]<sup>[[User talk:194.168.208.42#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:47, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
+I think that the only possible response to that is "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey." It gets even more complicated when you realize that in ''Flesh and Stone'', River basically said that she'd already lived through the universe being destroyed and rebooted. [[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 18:59, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
+So, now that there never were any Daleks, what became of the Doctor's hand that Jack kept in a jar? How did Donna get Time Lord abilities? And what killed Harriet Jones? [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]]<sup>[[User talk:82.2.136.93#top|talk to me]]</sup> 21:39, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
+You might as well ask how Amy was born without parents. Of course, things are much simpler if you assume that the invasion wasn't erased.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 02:16, April 5, 2012 (UTC)
+One big push to tackle the whole issue: but we need at least two dimensions in time (just go with it for now).  And for short hand, I will use t1 for the first time dimension that we commonly refer to and t2 for the second dimension in time – and for this discussion, t2 will be a running time with an arbitrary start time.  Remember that the cracks in time and space destroy the universe.  They are not static events.
+On Monday at t1 = 7:50 AM and t2 = 0:00, a crack appears in Amy’s bedroom wall and Amy’s parents pass through the crack and thus the information about her parents is removed from history – without removing their impact on historical events.  At t1=8:00 AM and t2=0:00, a crack appears on Amy's wall.  At t1=8:00 AM and t2 = 1:00 the crack is bigger and at t1=8:00 AM and t2 = 20:00 (or some time period) the crack has grown large enough to cross galaxies, perhaps seen by a convicted felon who passes through the crack into Amy’s world.  At t1=8:00 AM and t2 = Friday (I jest here, I mean t2 = a bunch of time later), the universe at this specific space/time coordinate has completely exploded/imploded or whatever it was that we saw in [[The Big Bang]].
+On Monday at 8:01 AM and t2= 0:00 the crack appears on Amy’s wall.  Days, months, or years go by and on whatever day and t1 time the 11th Doctor arrives in Amy’s room and t2 = 0, the crack is still only on Amy’s wall.  But as t2 increases, that crack eats away the universe (and maybe at some point allows fish-like people to step through to Venice or a different crack could do that just as well).  t2 also allows the 11th Doctor to revisit these “past” events as he rewinds at the end of [[The Big Bang]].
+Provided you agree with the concepts of this argument, then you understand that you cannot ask silly questions like “if we went back in time to Amy’s birth, would she just appear from thin air?” because there is no universe to go back to.  As we see in [[The Big Bang]] nothing at all is left in the universe in all of time and space - only the Earth is left "with time running out, isn't anyone paying attention" and is being kept warm by the exploding TARDIS and only because the Doctor and his companions are at the eye of the storm.
+Finally, the Doctor flies the Pandorica into the exploding TARDIS and reboots the universe.  Now you can debate that the only “atoms of the universe” that exist in the Pandorica represent those after some of the effects of the cracks in time and space.   But considering that a DALEK is revitalized by the light from the Pandorica in the museum at the beginning of [[The Big Bang]], I think one must agree that the information of the DALEK race exists within the Pandorica and therefore the DALEK Race exists after the reboot.--[[User:ANone|ANone]] <sup>[[User talk:ANone|talk to me]]</sup> 08:09, April 6, 2012 (UTC)