Talk:Companion: Difference between revisions
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:This was removed by Bold Clone, and should remain here till we decide whether to reinsert it into the article or re add bits of it. Also, it may be used in the forums with the latest 'Who counts as a companion debate' [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 14:51, May 2, 2011 (UTC) | :This was removed by Bold Clone, and should remain here till we decide whether to reinsert it into the article or re add bits of it. Also, it may be used in the forums with the latest 'Who counts as a companion debate' [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 14:51, May 2, 2011 (UTC) | ||
::Huh. Weird. I never noticed this was put here. Why was it put here? This is the one part of the old article that's more or less intact in the new one. I didn't actually see a reason to change the facts, although I did add a few things here and there, as well as the picture. Not sure what the complaint is. It's very clear in several narratives that the Doctor did make travelling companions out of historically famous humans. This is doubly the case now that Mary Shelley is an unambiguous BF companion of the Eighth Doctor. And is there any doubt that Ten would have taken Mme de Pomp had not her death intervened? She's the Astrid of celebrity historical companions. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::Huh. Weird. I never noticed this was put here. Why was it put here? This is the one part of the old article that's more or less intact in the new one. I didn't actually see a reason to change the facts, although I did add a few things here and there, as well as the picture. Not sure what the complaint is. It's very clear in several narratives that the Doctor did make travelling companions out of historically famous humans. This is doubly the case now that Mary Shelley is an unambiguous BF companion of the Eighth Doctor. And is there any doubt that Ten would have taken Mme de Pomp had not her death intervened? She's the Astrid of celebrity historical companions. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''23:37:11 Thu '''25 Aug 2011 </span> | ||
:One-time adventurers like Van Gogh and Agatha Christie do not a companion make. To be a companion, you have to travel with the Doctor regularly. If a historical character regularly traveled with the Doctor, then go ahead and place them on the page. But don't go and say "Every famous person the Doctor ever had an encounter with is a companion." That's just stupid. Again, being invited to become a companion does not make you a companion. It's like getting elected president and then dying before you took the oath of office and actually became president. Madame de Pompadour and Astrid accepted the Doctor's offer of companionship, but died before they could actually become companions. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 15:17, August 26, 2011 (UTC) | :One-time adventurers like Van Gogh and Agatha Christie do not a companion make. To be a companion, you have to travel with the Doctor regularly. If a historical character regularly traveled with the Doctor, then go ahead and place them on the page. But don't go and say "Every famous person the Doctor ever had an encounter with is a companion." That's just stupid. Again, being invited to become a companion does not make you a companion. It's like getting elected president and then dying before you took the oath of office and actually became president. Madame de Pompadour and Astrid accepted the Doctor's offer of companionship, but died before they could actually become companions. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 15:17, August 26, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:::You proceed from the common fan misconception that "companion" is a title. Your analogy about the president-elect not actually being the president is quite spurious. To the extent that we have a definition in canon, it really comes from ''[[Situation Vacant]]'': companions are the Doctor's friends who actively help him solve problems. That's pretty much it. | :::You proceed from the common fan misconception that "companion" is a title. Your analogy about the president-elect not actually being the president is quite spurious. To the extent that we have a definition in canon, it really comes from ''[[Situation Vacant]]'': companions are the Doctor's friends who actively help him solve problems. That's pretty much it. | ||
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:::I say above "your personal, out-of-universe definition", and we should dwell on that for a second. Your "multi-adventure rule" is your own ''thang'. Such a rule is nowhere laid down in any canonical source. That's just you, as a fan, defining the term the way you want to. Now, of couse, you're buoyed by common fan wisdom and maybe even a JNT reference book from the 1980s. But it's important to try to look afresh at the issue, from an in-universe perspective. Would the Tenth Doctor call his relationship with Mme de Pomp as equivalent to Rose? Obviously. That's why Rose gets jealous. Would the Third Doctor consider his relationship with [[Joe (Fogbound)|Joe]] as equivalent to Liz in ''Spearhead''? Absoultely. The Doctor couldn't have finished the adventure of ''[[Fogbound]]'' without Joe. Heck, he couldn't have even begun it. Is Dickens important to the solution of ''The Unquiet Dead''? Obviously, the Ninth Doctor has a man-crush on Dickens, and Dickens is quite clearly the one who saves the Doctor's life, not Rose. | :::I say above "your personal, out-of-universe definition", and we should dwell on that for a second. Your "multi-adventure rule" is your own ''thang'. Such a rule is nowhere laid down in any canonical source. That's just you, as a fan, defining the term the way you want to. Now, of couse, you're buoyed by common fan wisdom and maybe even a JNT reference book from the 1980s. But it's important to try to look afresh at the issue, from an in-universe perspective. Would the Tenth Doctor call his relationship with Mme de Pomp as equivalent to Rose? Obviously. That's why Rose gets jealous. Would the Third Doctor consider his relationship with [[Joe (Fogbound)|Joe]] as equivalent to Liz in ''Spearhead''? Absoultely. The Doctor couldn't have finished the adventure of ''[[Fogbound]]'' without Joe. Heck, he couldn't have even begun it. Is Dickens important to the solution of ''The Unquiet Dead''? Obviously, the Ninth Doctor has a man-crush on Dickens, and Dickens is quite clearly the one who saves the Doctor's life, not Rose. | ||
:::That's why this article is written from the very broadest possible stance. It tries to note the wide variety of circumstances in which someone might have come to travel with — or, in some cases, assist — the Doctor. You might not want to call Dickens or Mme de Pomp a companion, and so this article doesn't try to declaratively state that they are. But it does try to provide the widest possible range of people who ''might'' be considered companions or assistants or friends '''by the Doctor'''. As an in-universe article, we do have to ask ourselves, would ''the Doctor'' introduce this person as a "companion", "assistant" ro "good friend"? If so, then it's not a problem to have them in this article. Of course, this article isn't trying to be '''exhaustive'''. But it is trying to give a liberal smattering of the different kinds of companion. And the "celebrity" companion is definitely a broad classification of companion that deserves to be specially highlighted in the article. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :::That's why this article is written from the very broadest possible stance. It tries to note the wide variety of circumstances in which someone might have come to travel with — or, in some cases, assist — the Doctor. You might not want to call Dickens or Mme de Pomp a companion, and so this article doesn't try to declaratively state that they are. But it does try to provide the widest possible range of people who ''might'' be considered companions or assistants or friends '''by the Doctor'''. As an in-universe article, we do have to ask ourselves, would ''the Doctor'' introduce this person as a "companion", "assistant" ro "good friend"? If so, then it's not a problem to have them in this article. Of course, this article isn't trying to be '''exhaustive'''. But it is trying to give a liberal smattering of the different kinds of companion. And the "celebrity" companion is definitely a broad classification of companion that deserves to be specially highlighted in the article. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''02:19:00 Thu '''01 Sep 2011 </span> | ||
:Having an adventure with the Doctor or helping him out does not make you a companion--otherwise Canton, [[Mo Northover]], and [[Nasreen Chaudhry]] would all be undisputed companions. According to ''your'' definition, "Danny Boy" and Madame Vastra are companions, since they were friends of the Doctor who helped him out. To be a companion, you need to regularly travel with the Doctor. It's a common-sense limitation that prevents us from listing ''every new person'' from ''every new episode'' as a companion. We don't need to say that Captain Avery and his son were companions of the Doctor, or that Nixon and the Gangers were companions. I suppose what we could do is list "travelling companions" and "non-travelling companions", but we would still have a massive amount of random people in the "non-travelling companions" section, following your definition. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 15:46, September 2, 2011 (UTC) | :Having an adventure with the Doctor or helping him out does not make you a companion--otherwise Canton, [[Mo Northover]], and [[Nasreen Chaudhry]] would all be undisputed companions. According to ''your'' definition, "Danny Boy" and Madame Vastra are companions, since they were friends of the Doctor who helped him out. To be a companion, you need to regularly travel with the Doctor. It's a common-sense limitation that prevents us from listing ''every new person'' from ''every new episode'' as a companion. We don't need to say that Captain Avery and his son were companions of the Doctor, or that Nixon and the Gangers were companions. I suppose what we could do is list "travelling companions" and "non-travelling companions", but we would still have a massive amount of random people in the "non-travelling companions" section, following your definition. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 15:46, September 2, 2011 (UTC) | ||
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I've started a subsection on this topic. Since Moffat and Gaiman have both indicated in DWM and Confidential that the TARDIS is a companion, that makes it pretty official, and add to that media coverage and reviews referring to her as such in the wake of Doctor's Wife. Chapter and verse citations from DWM would be helpful. All mine are packed away in boxes right now. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.71.145|68.146.71.145]] 13:38, July 28, 2011 (UTC) | I've started a subsection on this topic. Since Moffat and Gaiman have both indicated in DWM and Confidential that the TARDIS is a companion, that makes it pretty official, and add to that media coverage and reviews referring to her as such in the wake of Doctor's Wife. Chapter and verse citations from DWM would be helpful. All mine are packed away in boxes right now. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.71.145|68.146.71.145]] 13:38, July 28, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:I've removed this section, as there's not quite the kinda proof you need for it. What you have is a writer in a magazine missing the narrative point of ''The Doctor's Wife''. That episode clearly states that the TARDIS stole the Doctor, which implies that it's at least as likely that the Doctor is the TARDIS' companion as the other way around. More to the point, their relationship is described as different to that which is associated with normal companions, in that Idris calls such people "strays". Indeed the whole point of the episode is to explain how very much greater is the relationship between Doctor and TARDIS than that of a normal companion. I think your evidence for the central thrust of this article is a hack writer who didn't understand ''The Doctor's Wife''. But I preserve it here for future discussion: | :I've removed this section, as there's not quite the kinda proof you need for it. What you have is a writer in a magazine missing the narrative point of ''The Doctor's Wife''. That episode clearly states that the TARDIS stole the Doctor, which implies that it's at least as likely that the Doctor is the TARDIS' companion as the other way around. More to the point, their relationship is described as different to that which is associated with normal companions, in that Idris calls such people "strays". Indeed the whole point of the episode is to explain how very much greater is the relationship between Doctor and TARDIS than that of a normal companion. I think your evidence for the central thrust of this article is a hack writer who didn't understand ''The Doctor's Wife''. But I preserve it here for future discussion: | ||
::In the wake of the revelations made in [[DW]]: ''[[The Doctor's Wife]]'' - not the least of which is the confirmation, long implied and assumed, that the TARDIS, if not itself sentient, was controlled by a sentient consciousness - a school of thought has been established that considers the Doctor's TARDIS not simply a travelling vessel, but an actual companion. Although this fact has yet (as of 2012) to be stated explicitly on screen, it has been referenced in reviews ([http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/doctor-who-the-doctors-wife-neil-gaiman-brings-good-things-to-life such as this example]), in the ''[[Doctor Who Confidential]]'' episode "Bigger on the Inside" and by episode writer Neil Gaiman and producer Steven Moffat in the pages of ''[[Doctor Who Magazine]]''. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::In the wake of the revelations made in [[DW]]: ''[[The Doctor's Wife]]'' - not the least of which is the confirmation, long implied and assumed, that the TARDIS, if not itself sentient, was controlled by a sentient consciousness - a school of thought has been established that considers the Doctor's TARDIS not simply a travelling vessel, but an actual companion. Although this fact has yet (as of 2012) to be stated explicitly on screen, it has been referenced in reviews ([http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/doctor-who-the-doctors-wife-neil-gaiman-brings-good-things-to-life such as this example]), in the ''[[Doctor Who Confidential]]'' episode "Bigger on the Inside" and by episode writer Neil Gaiman and producer Steven Moffat in the pages of ''[[Doctor Who Magazine]]''. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}23:28: Fri 17 Aug 2012 </span> | ||
== Tegan isn't the only "four season regular". What about Sarah Jane Smith? == | == Tegan isn't the only "four season regular". What about Sarah Jane Smith? == | ||
Revision as of 03:04, 28 August 2012
The main photo
Pursuant to a couple of things said above, I've now changed the photo over into something which is much simpler and doesn't at all give the (very false) impression of being exhaustive. It's just, "Here are four companions to show you, the reader, what kind of characters we're talking about." The companions chosen do not represent my particular biases, but rather illustrate the concept in terms of four companions who are important for different reasons. It's first companion, longest-serving comics companion, first companion of new series/post-time war, longest-serving male companion. That's a perfectly adequate representation of the concept; we don't need more than that to illustrate what a companion is.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍
I'm not sure the image needs Izzy Sinclair, the comics aren't always seen as being canon by some fans. Personally, I would suggest K9 (a non human companion) or Sarah Jane Smith (being one of the most popular companions and having her own spin off) Just a suggestion though.211.31.195.107 05:56, February 28, 2011 (UTC)
Historically "famous" humans
Occasionally, the Doctor had adventures with people considered to be "famous" historical figures on Earth. Examples included H. G. Wells (DW: Timelash), Charles Dickens (DW: The Unquiet Dead), William Shakespeare (DW: The Shakespeare Code), and Vincent Van Gogh (DW: Vincent and the Doctor).
Agatha Christie shared an adventure with the Tenth Doctor, but some actual TARDIS travel with the Eighth.
Agatha Christie assisted two separate incarnations of the Doctor. Once, the Tenth Doctor and she encountered a Vespiform in rural England. (DW: The Unicorn and the Wasp) At another time, she travelled in the TARDIS, probably with the Eighth Doctor, (BFA: Terror Firma) though little was known of these adventures.
The Tenth Doctor invited Madame de Pompadour of France to travel with him, but she died before she could take him up on his offer. (DW: The Girl in the Fireplace)
The Eighth and Tenth Doctors shared adventures with Mary Shelley. As with Christie, Shelley had an Earth-bound adventure with the later Doctor but actually travelled for an unknown length of time with the earlier. (BFA: Mary's Story, DWBIT: The Creative Spark).
The Tenth Doctor claimed to have taken Isaac Newton to an alien planet, as well. (IDW: Final Sacrifice)
- This was removed by Bold Clone, and should remain here till we decide whether to reinsert it into the article or re add bits of it. Also, it may be used in the forums with the latest 'Who counts as a companion debate' Mini-mitch\talk 14:51, May 2, 2011 (UTC)
- Huh. Weird. I never noticed this was put here. Why was it put here? This is the one part of the old article that's more or less intact in the new one. I didn't actually see a reason to change the facts, although I did add a few things here and there, as well as the picture. Not sure what the complaint is. It's very clear in several narratives that the Doctor did make travelling companions out of historically famous humans. This is doubly the case now that Mary Shelley is an unambiguous BF companion of the Eighth Doctor. And is there any doubt that Ten would have taken Mme de Pomp had not her death intervened? She's the Astrid of celebrity historical companions.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 23:37:11 Thu 25 Aug 2011
- Huh. Weird. I never noticed this was put here. Why was it put here? This is the one part of the old article that's more or less intact in the new one. I didn't actually see a reason to change the facts, although I did add a few things here and there, as well as the picture. Not sure what the complaint is. It's very clear in several narratives that the Doctor did make travelling companions out of historically famous humans. This is doubly the case now that Mary Shelley is an unambiguous BF companion of the Eighth Doctor. And is there any doubt that Ten would have taken Mme de Pomp had not her death intervened? She's the Astrid of celebrity historical companions.
- One-time adventurers like Van Gogh and Agatha Christie do not a companion make. To be a companion, you have to travel with the Doctor regularly. If a historical character regularly traveled with the Doctor, then go ahead and place them on the page. But don't go and say "Every famous person the Doctor ever had an encounter with is a companion." That's just stupid. Again, being invited to become a companion does not make you a companion. It's like getting elected president and then dying before you took the oath of office and actually became president. Madame de Pompadour and Astrid accepted the Doctor's offer of companionship, but died before they could actually become companions. --Bold Clone 15:17, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
- You proceed from the common fan misconception that "companion" is a title. Your analogy about the president-elect not actually being the president is quite spurious. To the extent that we have a definition in canon, it really comes from Situation Vacant: companions are the Doctor's friends who actively help him solve problems. That's pretty much it.
- The section you removed studiously avoids using the word "companion" and lets the reader decide for themselves what to do about these "celebrity historical figures". It in no way claims that "every celebrity historical figure is a companion". Please read the grafs you removed before you remove them. It points out examples of people who had adventures with the Doctor, and were integral to the resolution of various problems he faced. Agatha Christie actually meets even your personal, out-of-universe definition of a companion, as confirmed by two different sources — she had multiple adventures with the Doctor. It's just that we, the audience, only know details of the The Unicorn and the Wasp. Mary Shelley is clearly a multi-adventure companion, as she's the current BFA 8D companion.
- I say above "your personal, out-of-universe definition", and we should dwell on that for a second. Your "multi-adventure rule" is your own thang'. Such a rule is nowhere laid down in any canonical source. That's just you, as a fan, defining the term the way you want to. Now, of couse, you're buoyed by common fan wisdom and maybe even a JNT reference book from the 1980s. But it's important to try to look afresh at the issue, from an in-universe perspective. Would the Tenth Doctor call his relationship with Mme de Pomp as equivalent to Rose? Obviously. That's why Rose gets jealous. Would the Third Doctor consider his relationship with Joe as equivalent to Liz in Spearhead? Absoultely. The Doctor couldn't have finished the adventure of Fogbound without Joe. Heck, he couldn't have even begun it. Is Dickens important to the solution of The Unquiet Dead? Obviously, the Ninth Doctor has a man-crush on Dickens, and Dickens is quite clearly the one who saves the Doctor's life, not Rose.
- That's why this article is written from the very broadest possible stance. It tries to note the wide variety of circumstances in which someone might have come to travel with — or, in some cases, assist — the Doctor. You might not want to call Dickens or Mme de Pomp a companion, and so this article doesn't try to declaratively state that they are. But it does try to provide the widest possible range of people who might be considered companions or assistants or friends by the Doctor. As an in-universe article, we do have to ask ourselves, would the Doctor introduce this person as a "companion", "assistant" ro "good friend"? If so, then it's not a problem to have them in this article. Of course, this article isn't trying to be exhaustive. But it is trying to give a liberal smattering of the different kinds of companion. And the "celebrity" companion is definitely a broad classification of companion that deserves to be specially highlighted in the article.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 02:19:00 Thu 01 Sep 2011
- That's why this article is written from the very broadest possible stance. It tries to note the wide variety of circumstances in which someone might have come to travel with — or, in some cases, assist — the Doctor. You might not want to call Dickens or Mme de Pomp a companion, and so this article doesn't try to declaratively state that they are. But it does try to provide the widest possible range of people who might be considered companions or assistants or friends by the Doctor. As an in-universe article, we do have to ask ourselves, would the Doctor introduce this person as a "companion", "assistant" ro "good friend"? If so, then it's not a problem to have them in this article. Of course, this article isn't trying to be exhaustive. But it is trying to give a liberal smattering of the different kinds of companion. And the "celebrity" companion is definitely a broad classification of companion that deserves to be specially highlighted in the article.
- Having an adventure with the Doctor or helping him out does not make you a companion--otherwise Canton, Mo Northover, and Nasreen Chaudhry would all be undisputed companions. According to your definition, "Danny Boy" and Madame Vastra are companions, since they were friends of the Doctor who helped him out. To be a companion, you need to regularly travel with the Doctor. It's a common-sense limitation that prevents us from listing every new person from every new episode as a companion. We don't need to say that Captain Avery and his son were companions of the Doctor, or that Nixon and the Gangers were companions. I suppose what we could do is list "travelling companions" and "non-travelling companions", but we would still have a massive amount of random people in the "non-travelling companions" section, following your definition. --Bold Clone 15:46, September 2, 2011 (UTC)
Opening Quote?
I'm not sure what the TARDIS INDEX FILE's policy is on pages having and/or needing an opening quote, but I noticed this page didn't have one and wondered if the following would be fitting:
"... the last time I was dying I looked back on all of you, every single one -- and I was so proud." - Eleventh Doctor
It's from his episode on the Sarah Jane Adventures. Not sure if I punctuated it correctly, though.
Anyway, maybe there are better quotes... but I really liked that one.
95.150.81.32 18:04, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion. It is a great quote, but alas it is against policy.----Skittles the hog--Talk 18:10, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
Reference
Just for reference: the archive page of Companion.
TARDIS as companion
I've started a subsection on this topic. Since Moffat and Gaiman have both indicated in DWM and Confidential that the TARDIS is a companion, that makes it pretty official, and add to that media coverage and reviews referring to her as such in the wake of Doctor's Wife. Chapter and verse citations from DWM would be helpful. All mine are packed away in boxes right now. 68.146.71.145 13:38, July 28, 2011 (UTC)
- I've removed this section, as there's not quite the kinda proof you need for it. What you have is a writer in a magazine missing the narrative point of The Doctor's Wife. That episode clearly states that the TARDIS stole the Doctor, which implies that it's at least as likely that the Doctor is the TARDIS' companion as the other way around. More to the point, their relationship is described as different to that which is associated with normal companions, in that Idris calls such people "strays". Indeed the whole point of the episode is to explain how very much greater is the relationship between Doctor and TARDIS than that of a normal companion. I think your evidence for the central thrust of this article is a hack writer who didn't understand The Doctor's Wife. But I preserve it here for future discussion:
- In the wake of the revelations made in DW: The Doctor's Wife - not the least of which is the confirmation, long implied and assumed, that the TARDIS, if not itself sentient, was controlled by a sentient consciousness - a school of thought has been established that considers the Doctor's TARDIS not simply a travelling vessel, but an actual companion. Although this fact has yet (as of 2012) to be stated explicitly on screen, it has been referenced in reviews (such as this example), in the Doctor Who Confidential episode "Bigger on the Inside" and by episode writer Neil Gaiman and producer Steven Moffat in the pages of Doctor Who Magazine.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 23:28: Fri 17 Aug 2012
- In the wake of the revelations made in DW: The Doctor's Wife - not the least of which is the confirmation, long implied and assumed, that the TARDIS, if not itself sentient, was controlled by a sentient consciousness - a school of thought has been established that considers the Doctor's TARDIS not simply a travelling vessel, but an actual companion. Although this fact has yet (as of 2012) to be stated explicitly on screen, it has been referenced in reviews (such as this example), in the Doctor Who Confidential episode "Bigger on the Inside" and by episode writer Neil Gaiman and producer Steven Moffat in the pages of Doctor Who Magazine.
Tegan isn't the only "four season regular". What about Sarah Jane Smith?
sarah jan smith was a reguler in seson 11 12 13 and 14 tegan was in seson 18 19 20 and 21
Yes, you're entirely correct - edited. Silent Hunter UK talk to me 11:47, June 7, 2012 (UTC)
