Howling:Are Stories in Paralell Universes Canon?

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The Series 2 first two parter is set in a different universe with different Cybermen and different characters. Now we know there are potentially many paralell universes out there. Let's take the non canonical Dalek movies with the human doctor. Couldn't they almost certainly be occuring in exactly the same way in a different universe somewhere? Would that technically make it canon? Or would that make the series 2 two parter non - canon? Or is it only canon if there is a link between the two different universes, like there was in the episode? Or are there a limited number of parallel universes? 178.78.81.210^{talk to me} 15:02, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

There are parallel universes and there are alternate timelines.

There needs to be evidence of it in narrative. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:19, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

The "Pete's World" universe (as the Doctor eventually called it) interacted with the primary universe of the show. Not only did the Doctor, Rose and Mickey visit it in the Series 2 two-parter mentioned above (Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel), leading to Mickey staying there for a considerable time, but also the Cybus Cybermen from that universe invaded the primary universe (Army of Ghosts/Doomsday) and Rose got trapped there (end of Doomsday). Later, Rose and others crossed from the "Pete's World" universe to the primary universe to combat the Daleks (The Stolen Earth/Journey's End). If the events of the primary universe in those stories are canon, the events of the "Pete's World" universe have to be canon, too. There have been several stories set in other universes, Inferno (Third Doctor, 1970), for example, or featuring interactions between universes, such as Battlefield (Seventh .Doctor, 1989). In each case, characters from the primary universe have been involved and have continued in the primary universe afterwards -- not all have continued in the primary universe but some always have.

The "non-canonical Dalek movies with the human doctor" are a wholly different case. There is no interaction with the primary universe of the show. Nothing in the events of the show or in the lives of the characters would be any different if the events of those movies had or had not occurred in some other universe. The idea that they did occur in some other universe is an invented excuse to make them "canon" and the same could equally easily be done in respect (say) of the 1960s US TV shows The Man from UNCLE/The Girl from UNCLE, the movie The Wizard of Oz and, in fact, absolutely anything else. Because there's no interaction, they're all irrelevant (no matter how good or enjoyable). Making them "canon" in this way makes no difference to the continuity of the show and (to quote a fictional character who has been referred to in Doctor Who episodes, Mr. Spock of Star Trek) "A difference that makes no difference is no difference".

The idea that the episodes of the show that are set in other universes are "non-canonical" is daft. The idea that the Dalek movies with the human doctor are "canonical" through occurring in another universe having no interaction with the primary universe of the show is simply meaningless because it makes no difference. --89.241.68.183^{talk to me} 16:24, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

If it had ever been stated that the Dalek movies were a parallel universe then they would be canon, but as it is you might as well say that Star Trek, or the real world are canon within Doctor Who and just take place in another universe.Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 07:59, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Even if there was a parallel universe in the Whoniverse where everything happened the same as in the Dalek movies, it wouldn't canonise those movies, it would just mean there's a universe where everything coincedentally happens identical to Moviewhoniverse. 77.86.108.251^{talk to me} 11:36, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if a future episode decided to retcon the the Dalek movies into taking place in a parallel universe, then they might be canon. Still, as that hasn't happenned, this conversation is largely pointless.Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 23:16, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

For "largely", I'd substitute "completely". --89.241.67.245^{talk to me} 01:15, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

i think everyone here is in agreement that it doesn't matter if they took place in a parrallel universe or not as long as it doesn't affect any parts of the main series. therefore, i think we should stop posting here unless there is anything new to say, which there doesn't seem to be at the moment judging by the repetitive comments above. Imamadmad ^{talk to me} 06:55, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

However on the subject of parallel universes, didn't the Doctor say the Time Lords could travel between them really easily? 77.86.108.251^{talk to me} 17:26, January 5, 2012 (UTC) He did say something of the kind. It's not totally clear, however, if he meant it was the sort of thing that was so easy it could be done casually or if he just meant it was far easier than it had become in their absence. In the 3rd Doctor era, though, the Doctor did travel to a parallel universe entirely accidentally (Inferno). In Battlefield (7th Doctor), Morgaine and company had travelled from a parallel universe with little difficulty. From what I recall, the Doctor said that, when the Time Lords were around, travel between universes was comparatively easy. The implication there is that others could do the travelling, too, not just the Time Lords. None of that does anything to reduce the accuracy of what Boblipton says in the following comment, which conflicted with this edit. If we want a discussion of travel to/from other universes, let's start one. This discussion is just a very badly disguised way of trying to do something obviously silly. --89.241.69.54^{talk to me} 20:13, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Just because there are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays does not mean you can stick a bunch of words together and proclaim it a tribal lay. Just because there is an unimaginably large number of parallel universes does not make Curse of the Fatal Death canonical. I understand it breaks your heart. Get over it and stop trying to slip it in. Boblipton ^{talk to me} 19:53, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Well there's no chance TCOFD is canonical because time lords don't have parallel counterparts but oh well there's no point to this silly discussion anyway. 87.102.117.106^{talk to me} 16:33, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

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czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 17:40: Mon 09 Jan 2012 

The parallel Universe in ROTC/TAOS had split off from our universe. It's assumed that this universe became seperate due to Queen Victoria being killed by the werewolf. So unless the Moviewhoniverse could have split off I doubt Doctor Who and the Daleks is canon. 94.72.237.220^{talk to me} 17:18, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Who assumed that? A parallel universe doesn't have to have any kind of exact split. It is just a different universe where things happenned differently. I would imagine that things were different even before Tooth and Claw. Are you just making that theory up, or was there some story or something that discussed it?Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 19:17, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I believe it's on the Pete's World page. Last time I checked, anyway. 94.72.237.220^{talk to me} 21:21, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, it's from a book or something. Well, in the television canon, Pete's World is most likely completely seperate from N-space.Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 01:18, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Now that IS an assumption. Even if you do refuse to believe that Queen Victoria had anything to do with Pete's World, you can't deny that Parallel Universes split from this universe, because that was confirmed in "the television canon", as you call it. So far as I remember the Doctor started to explain it in one of the Cyberman episodes, I think it was AOG, but he only mentioned something about decisions creating different universes before he was cut off. This would explain why Time Lords don't have parallel counterparts. 94.72.237.220^{talk to me} 23:04, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

just wondering, when was it said that time lords don't have parallel counterparts? could it just be that we just haven't run into any yet, but they still exist? Imamadmad ^{talk to me} 23:46, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

The only parallel universe stories that we have seen have been set on Earth, so it makes sense that we haven't seen any Time Lords. Which episode was AOG?Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 03:13, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I figured it out. You meant Army of Ghosts. With almost 50 years of episodes, abbreviations can be a bit confusing if we don't already know what episode we're talking about. I might have to rewatch that then. Do you know where in the episode that reference came from?Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 03:20, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Abbreviations are OK if you've already given the full title earlier in that same contribution. They're not OK if you haven't. What's ROTD? Resurrection Of The Daleks, Revelation of the Daleks or Remembrance of the Daleks? How about TG or TSM? --89.241.64.85^{talk to me} 03:27, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I was expecting the word "CYBERMEM" and "PARALLEL UNIVERSE" to be good enough clues. And AOG has been mentioned already. Anyway, don't quote me on it but so far as I remember the Doctor started to explain it to Pete when he met Jackie. But he was cut off and only mentioned smething about "every decision you make creates anther universe where you didn't" and didn't go into much detail because Pete was more confused how his dead wife was standing in front of him. As I say, I'm just going by memory. 94.72.237.220^{talk to me} 07:24, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

PS: just realised it's more likely to be Doomsday I'm talking about here. It was an episode with Pete, anyway. (I think). 94.72.237.220^{talk to me} 07:24, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Since Pete wasn't in Army of Ghosts, it probably was Doomsday. On the abbreviations: I assume you want us to think about what you're saying, rather than devoting our attention to decoding abbreviations. There's not much point in making a contribution, then obscuring it so that we pay attention to something else. --89.242.75.47^{talk to me} 10:18, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well, after looking on the archives and seeing how good you guys are at finding even the smallest clues I assumed you'd pick up on the fact that I must be talking about an episode to do with the subject. There have only been a few, so the list is narrowed down from 50 years worth of episode. Anyway, it doesn't matter, in future I will not be lazy and write out the title fully to avoid confusion. Hopefully when someone decides to rewatch it they can clarify whether or not my memory is correct. 94.72.237.220^{talk to me} 16:47, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Does anybody know where in either episode this reference comes from, because I don't remember that, although, admittedly, I haven't seen the episode in a while.Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 16:26, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know for definite which it was, if it WAS either of those two, but I do remember that the Doctor was cut off mid-sentence, which suggests he was explaining the whole parallel universe concept to Pete. If you are going to check, and remember you're going by a memory of mine from a few months ago, I'd suggest you check the scene where Pete meets original Jackie, in Doomsday. 94.72.237.220^{talk to me} 16:47, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I just watched that scene, and what the Doctor said was "every single decision we make creates a parallel existance, a different dimension where-" before he was cut off by Jackie. Based on that explanation though, it seems possible that the universe could have been created by a single change, like Queen Victoria, but even more likely that there were a lot of different decisions that were made, throughout history. Also, this may have been explained in the novel, but wasn't the werewolf just trying to bite Victoria, not kill her?Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 18:30, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'd be prepared to bet that in the split events led to Queen Victoria being cornered and she took her own life to prevent the Werewolf from getting her. Let's face it - Queen Victoria wouldn't be amused by a Werewolf bite. 94.72.237.220^{talk to me} 19:20, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well in at least one universe she was bitten and just chose to ignore it. Anyway, based on the Doctor's partial explanation, there would probably be a lot more universes where there were many different decisions made than just the one. Anyway, none of this really matters to the main point at hand. Going back to Inferno, it was never stated that there were was any point when the 2 universes split, but based on the Doctor's explanation, it is possible that they must have at some point. Therefore, the Dalek movies could just as easily never mentioned the point that the 2 universes only split due to different decisions that were made. However, since it was never stated that the Dalek movies take place in a parallel universe, we have to assume that they don't.Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 19:30, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Our decisions are determined by certain factors. Say if Vic was running down the corridor and had a choice of going left or right. Whichever way she chose there would be a reason for it. As Clyde says in Vault of Secrets, things are tied together by bits of string, what happens will happen. It's a lot more likely that in Pete's world events are tied a lot differently, events starting from the very beginning of that universe that determine that the architecht of Torchwood manor had a bad day and couldn't be bothered to build a corridor going right, leading Vic to a dead end. It's more than just "splits", it's small events being different leading up to one big event being different and having huge consequences. 83.100.196.53^{talk to me} 18:07, February 27, 2012 (UTC)