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They did use the term "First Doctor" etc. in [[The Three Doctors]]. It would be similar to describing Amelia in [[The Eleventh Hour]] or [[The Big Bang]] as the seven year old Amy Pond.Icecreamdif 22:15, August 31, 2010 (UTC) | They did use the term "First Doctor" etc. in [[The Three Doctors]]. It would be similar to describing Amelia in [[The Eleventh Hour]] or [[The Big Bang]] as the seven year old Amy Pond.Icecreamdif 22:15, August 31, 2010 (UTC) | ||
==Revisited== | ==Revisited== | ||
To answer the original question quite belatedly, yes, it is absolutely, firmly, clearly canonical to use the terms [[first Doctor]], [[second Doctor]], etc. [[Terrance Dicks]] made it so by thoroughly using the naming convention throughout [[ | To answer the original question quite belatedly, yes, it is absolutely, firmly, clearly canonical to use the terms [[first Doctor]], [[second Doctor]], etc. [[Terrance Dicks]] made it so by thoroughly using the naming convention throughout [[PROSE]]: ''[[The Eight Doctors]]''. All eight of the Doctors are repeatedly called by their number, there. And that's all that's necessary for our site to view it as in-universe. There's nothing "marginal" about that, despite what [[user:Rob T Firefly|Rob T Firefly]] intimates, above. Are we really going to argue with the most prolific ''Doctor Who'' writer in history? | ||
There's a separate, stylistic issue as to whether we want to go with [[first Doctor]] or [[First Doctor]]. ''The Eight Doctors'' goes with the latter, but many reference books —for instance everything I've ever seen written by [[David J. Howe]] — goes with the former. We probably do need to pick one of the two and specify it in the [[tardis:manual of style|manual of style]]. But there's absolutely no question of it being in-universe. I think it's even canon just using televised stories, when you combine ''The Lodger'' with ''Death of the Doctor''. People remember he said "eleventh" in ''The Lodger'', but this thread seems to have gone cold before the broadcast of ''[[Death of the Doctor]]'', where he urges Jo and Sarah to remember "every Doctor, every me". This indicates he thinks of himself as different Doctors, and, when combined with his earlier mention of "eleventh", it's not unreasonable to believe that even ''televised'' ''Doctor Who'' views "eleventh Doctor" (or "Eleventh Doctor") as a valid term. | There's a separate, stylistic issue as to whether we want to go with [[first Doctor]] or [[First Doctor]]. ''The Eight Doctors'' goes with the latter, but many reference books —for instance everything I've ever seen written by [[David J. Howe]] — goes with the former. We probably do need to pick one of the two and specify it in the [[tardis:manual of style|manual of style]]. But there's absolutely no question of it being in-universe. I think it's even canon just using televised stories, when you combine ''The Lodger'' with ''Death of the Doctor''. People remember he said "eleventh" in ''The Lodger'', but this thread seems to have gone cold before the broadcast of ''[[Death of the Doctor]]'', where he urges Jo and Sarah to remember "every Doctor, every me". This indicates he thinks of himself as different Doctors, and, when combined with his earlier mention of "eleventh", it's not unreasonable to believe that even ''televised'' ''Doctor Who'' views "eleventh Doctor" (or "Eleventh Doctor") as a valid term. | ||
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::::Cool. That's settled then. It's canon. Oh... and I also agree that the capitalized version looks better. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 18:56, February 17, 2011 (UTC) | ::::Cool. That's settled then. It's canon. Oh... and I also agree that the capitalized version looks better. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 18:56, February 17, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:::::And just in case anyone cries foul on the above passage being that of narration, rather than direct speech by a character, here's another quote: | :::::And just in case anyone cries foul on the above passage being that of narration, rather than direct speech by a character, here's another quote: | ||
::::::[[Volnar]] cleared his throat.<br><br>"[[Flavia|Madame President]], this tempograph represents the current state of the Doctor's time streams. | ::::::[[Volnar]] cleared his throat.<br /><br />"[[Flavia|Madame President]], this tempograph represents the current state of the Doctor's time streams. As you can see, it has returned to normal. The Eighth Doctor has completed his visitations to his former selves, abandoned his temporal peregrinations and returned to his proper place in space and time." | ||
:::::So there we are. | :::::So there we are. Straight from a [[Time Lord]]'s mouth. Can't ask for more in-universe than that. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ||
Even if you just go by televisied stories, the Timelords constantly refer to the Doctors as "First Doctor," "Second Doctor," and "Third Doctor" in The Three Doctors.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 20:39, February 17, 2011 (UTC) | |||
EVERY THING DOSN'T REVOLVE ROUND CANON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Am I the ONLY one who thinks about putting across the information just putting "The Doctor" can be confusing if you went on with a link from a page from a Different era and had a picture of a Dalek. NOW that would be just confusing, So you click on the link and in true TARDIS wiki Fashion it would lead you on to the actual [[The Doctor|doctor]] page. But after about an hour you discover who it is, but the episode hasn't aired yet and due to this stupid "Save are pages from non-existant vandals" Rule you can't change it you put it on the talk page (Honestly do i need to carry on?) [[User:Joshoedit|Joshoedit]] 20:58, February 17, 2011 (UTC) | |||
::Firstly... yes... this kind of thing ''does'' revolve around canon. Secondly... no, please don't carry on... please explain what the rest of that actually means. It makes no sense whatsoever. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 21:08, February 17, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::I think we should go with the canon text example, rather than the reference book example. So that's First Doctor, Second Doctor etc rather than the lower case option. | |||
:::CzechOut is right, ''The Eight Doctors'' is '''''really''''' littered with passages like that ''War of the Daleks'' is almost as bad...I mean intense with its canon ramblings. | |||
:::Joshedit...I'm confused. Though I think he's talking about our protection policy. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:24, February 18, 2011 (UTC) | |||
::: | |||
::::Sorry Hungry and sleepy makes me make no scence. What i'm saying is the infobox IE: Pictures in the infobox with no doctor and just having the doctor will make a HUGE confusion [[User:Joshoedit|Joshoedit]] 05:11, February 23, 2011 (UTC) | |||
What?----[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 11:31, February 23, 2011 (UTC) | |||
==Closing discussion== | |||
Slightly bad form — I guess? — to close the discussion I re-initiated, but I'm not seeing opposition of any strength. Closing in favor of the motion to prefer [[First Doctor]], [[Second Doctor]], etc., since there seems to be a slight preference given for caps, and it seems to be somewhat arbitrary decision. (I still like first Doctor better than First Doctor, but it's not ''that'' big a deal.) MOS has been changed to reflect what I see as the sense of this discussion. I say that we've got tons of open discussions that we need to start closing, so we might as well start with the one that seems the least controversial. See [[tardis:Manual of Style#Incarnations of the Doctor]] for full write up. | |||
[Obviously, if other editors object to me being the one to close it, or to codify it in the MOS, they are free to open a new discussion on this topic. But this wiki has no real rules on how to close a forum discussion, so I'm just doin' the best I can here.] {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | |||
::Isn't it First Doctor instead of first Doctor also because it's a proper noun? It's the name used for an individual, therefore capitalized? --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 14:28, February 21, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::Well, that's precisely the debate. According to a number of writers, perhaps most influentially [[David J. Howe]], it's not the character's name, but their designation. A good many non-fiction writers have followed suit. The preface to ''[[Heart of TARDIS]]'', for instance, has "fourth" and "second", not "Fourth" and "Second". But then you have others who ''do'' think of it as a kind of "name", like Terrance Dicks, and they therefore use caps for the adjective for the reason you suggest. Because there are reasonable cases on both sides, and no one usage appears to dominate, I just went with people who appeared to have a stronger feeling than me. I don't think it can be positively asserted, however, that it ''is'' definitely a proper name, as there are enough well-respected authors on both sides. It's better to think of it as just an arbitrary stylistic choice the wiki is making. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | |||
::Well I'd definitely go with the capitalized version. "The First Doctor" definitely looks better than "The first Doctor", but I don't think its a huge issue which individual users use. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 00:03, February 22, 2011 (UTC) | |||
[[category:policy changers]] |