Forum:Magnus, Divided Loyalties and more

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This thread was blanked by CzechOut at 14:21: Tue 06 Nov 2012. I am re-blanking and editing this forum post down to the most recent edits by 41.133.0.18 in order bring some clarity to the discussion that the previous copied text from the Magnus talk page did not.

The original discussion was at Talk:Magnus.

To 41.133.0.18 do not copy and past the text from that talk page. Users who wish to follow the discussion so far can go to that talk page.

Panopticon forum threads propose changes in the way we do things on this wiki. In simple terms, please restate what it is you're trying to change, and what supporting evidence you have for that change. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:50, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

This started on the Magnus article. An original point stating that Gary Russell explicitly stated that Magnus in Flashback(comic) was always meant to be The Master. It grew from there.

Summary

1)Gary Russell himself states that both he and Warwick Scott Gray agreed that the Magnus in Flashback(comic) is The Master.

2)The questions as to why/when/where things like Death Comes to time and Dimensions in Time are labelled non-DWU still stand. When did the creators of these, the Cushing movies, or various stories that tie into Dimensions in Time ever say those stories were non-DWU? And if they didn't what were the criteria for listing them as non-DWU here? Surely those criteria should be applied the same to every story, not just those select few?

3)Even if it is felt, for whatever reason, that the War Chief and the Master are two separate characters, there is clearly NOTHING in any media that states that they can not be the same character. 41.133.0.18^{talk to me} 13:16, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

...Oh, and another point. The fact that Malcolm Hulke(writer of, amongst others, the War Games) stated that the Master and the Doctor were the only two renegade Time Lords he ever wrote for was dismissed, because it was "non-narrative". Yet, the supposed reason Death Comes Time is excluded from the DWU is because of a real-world statement that somebody thought he saw somewhere. The real reason is of course because it contradicts the established continuity to the point where no amount of fanwankery can reconcile it with established fact. Same as Divided Loyalties. Of course, if that real-world("non-narrative") statement is valid, then what about Russell's or Hulke's or...? 41.133.0.18^{talk to me} 13:55, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

This issue is obviously very important to you. However, you don't seem to care about the people you are trying to convince. This page is a long wall of text that will turn away many readers. Instead of copy/pasting the other arguments, try giving a short summary of your arguments. Then you might get more discussion. Shambala108 ☎ 14:49, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

It started off at the Magnus disambiguation page. Basically, a post by Gary Russell stating that Mag(n)us from the Flashback(comic) was always supposed to be The Master. Confirmed by Warwick Scott Gray, the person who actually wrote Flashback(comic). And that there is nothing in any media which makes that an impossibility. Someone else then took that to mean that I was stating that the War Chief is the Master. Not my original intent, but he said he was "going to support me". This site's policy is that anything in a Target novelisation which gives extra background to, without contradicting the original tv serial counts. so, the long passages of text are from Target novelisations of The War Games, Terror of the Autons, The Doomsday Weapon(Colony in Space) and The Sea Devils. As well as a real-world interview with Malcolm Hulke. This was then greeted with "But what about Timewyrm:Exodus and Divided Loyalties?" So, it was then a job to show how Timewyrm:Exodus doesn't contradict any of the above. Fine. Then came the biggie "Divided Loyalties". I had to give text from that book, as well as text from other narrative sources, showing how it can't possibly exist in the same universe. Another user appeared, demanding I take it to the forum, and locking that discussion. Someone else, then said that Death Comes to Time is excluded because someone supposedly said somewhere that it was non-canon. Despite no evidence. This, despite Hulke's and Russell's real-world statements being dismissed as "non-narrative"! The only way to get everything here, was to place the entire discussion here. Simply glimpsing bits will omit the development. The same person who locked the earlier discussion then blanked this one. They have also yet to actually state their position. 41.133.0.18^{talk to me} 15:00, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Oh. earlier, the same person told me that "the burden of proof [was] on [me] to show that Round 4 Part 3 of divided Loyalties can't be part of the DWU". Immediately after I did so, he locked the discussion, saying it's "unfair to other users". 41.133.0.18^{talk to me} 15:04, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

One thing I think needs to be made clear. When we tag things NOTDWU, we're not making a judgment on the "official" statement of canon, it is merely a statement of what we cover on this wiki towards in-universe articles.

For these we've had several discussions involving inclusion, as was mentioned on the Talk:Magnus page these are in the Forum:Panopticon archives, many of the pages have been categorised into further categories for ease of searching you can find the; inclusion debates in Category:Inclusion debates, the discussions relating to changes in policy in Category:Policy changers and explanations of policy in Category:Policy explanations. All of these have some bearing on your questions.

You may also wish to see Tardis:Valid sources which explains these rulings in a simple to follow page.

As to your query concerning Death Comes to Time (webcast) you can read the forum discussion here: Forum:Inclusion debate: Death Comes to Time. Although I'm not sure what this question has to do with your Magnus question.

As far as contradictions in the valid sources goes, don't worry about it. It doesn't matter if the valid sources contradict one another, we just present the information. Just because there's contradictions doesn't mean we discount one source, and a contradiction doesn't mean source or another is invalid. As the valid sources states "The DWU has messy continuity. A story can't be declared invalid just because it contradicts other stories".

Finally "giving the text", a small quote is fine, but as Shambala108 and CzechOut have said, summarise your statements, the great chunks of unformatted text do not assist the discussion.

Now to go back to your initial quote which started this whole thing:

He was in a strip I commissioned from Warwick Gray for the Time Lord special I did at Marvel. In Wick's original, he was called Magus and meant to be the Master but I cocked it up and called him Magnus. When Dave McIntee created Koschei, it struck me on re-reading Wick's strip that the character could just as easily, if not better, be the War Chief. Which he is in DL. Gary Russell rec.arts.drwho 04/11/1999

This quote if anything confirms what we have presented in our The War Chief article. That the War Chief is Magnus, as is in Divided Loyalties (novel) (or DL as Russell states).

In Gray's original, it was meant to be the Master, but the editor; Russell "cocked it up".

We take what's presented in the stories as the facts of the DWU universe, not what might have been. What might have been is interesting (when properly sourced), but it's stuff that goes in the "Behind the scenes" section on in-universe articles or the "Notes" section on story articles.

I think from that incorrect assumption you running with that theory and creating an argument to sustain it. But going by your initial point that began this discussion, what appears in Flashback is pretty much what we've got on this wiki at the moment. Russell might have made a mistake in his editing of the strip, but later he didn't attempt a ret-con of the story, he read McIntee's The Dark Path which is where Koschei comes from and wrote Magnus/the War Chief into Divided Loyalties, influenced in part by Flashback. --Tangerineduel / talk 06:37, November 7, 2012 (UTC)