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Forum:Magnus, Divided Loyalties and more (view source)
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{{ | {{archive|Panopticon archives}}[[Category:Discussions without clear resolution]] | ||
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2)The questions as to why/when/where things like Death Comes to time and Dimensions in Time are labelled non-DWU still stand. When did the creators of these, the Cushing movies, or various stories that tie into Dimensions in Time '''ever''' say those stories were non-DWU? And if they didn't what were the criteria for listing them as non-DWU here? Surely those criteria should be applied the same to every story, not just those select few? | 2)The questions as to why/when/where things like Death Comes to time and Dimensions in Time are labelled non-DWU still stand. When did the creators of these, the Cushing movies, or various stories that tie into Dimensions in Time '''ever''' say those stories were non-DWU? And if they didn't what were the criteria for listing them as non-DWU here? Surely those criteria should be applied the same to every story, not just those select few? | ||
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3)Even if it is felt, for whatever reason, that the War Chief and the Master are two separate characters, there is clearly NOTHING in any media that states that they ''can not be'' the same character. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:16, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | 3)Even if it is felt, for whatever reason, that the War Chief and the Master are two separate characters, there is clearly NOTHING in any media that states that they ''can not be'' the same character. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:16, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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: This issue is obviously '''very''' important to you. However, you don't seem to care about the people you are trying to convince. This page is a long wall of text that will turn away many readers. Instead of copy/pasting the other arguments, try giving a '''short''' summary of your arguments. Then you might get more discussion. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:49, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | : This issue is obviously '''very''' important to you. However, you don't seem to care about the people you are trying to convince. This page is a long wall of text that will turn away many readers. Instead of copy/pasting the other arguments, try giving a '''short''' summary of your arguments. Then you might get more discussion. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:49, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | ||
It started off at the [[Magnus]] disambiguation page. Basically, a post by Gary Russell stating that Mag(n)us from the Flashback(comic) was always supposed to be [[The Master]]. Confirmed by Warwick Scott Gray, the person who actually wrote Flashback(comic). And that there is nothing in any media which makes that an impossibility. Someone else then took that to mean that I was stating that the War Chief is the Master. Not my original intent, but he said he was "going to support me". This site's policy is that anything in a Target novelisation which gives extra background to, without contradicting the original tv serial counts. so, the long passages of text are from Target novelisations of [[The War Games]], [[Terror of the Autons]], The Doomsday Weapon([[Colony in Space]]) and [[The Sea Devils]]. As well as a real-world interview with Malcolm Hulke. This was then greeted with "But what about Timewyrm:Exodus and [[Divided Loyalties]]?" So, it was then a job to show how [[Timewyrm:Exodus]] doesn't contradict any of the above. Fine. Then came the biggie "Divided Loyalties". I had to give text from that book, as well as text from other narrative sources, showing how it can't possibly exist in the same universe. Another user appeared, demanding I take it to the forum, and locking that discussion. Someone else, then said that [[Death Comes to Time]] is excluded because someone supposedly said somewhere that it was non-canon. Despite no evidence. This, despite Hulke's and Russell's real-world statements being dismissed as "non-narrative"! The only way to get everything here, was to place the entire discussion here. Simply glimpsing bits will omit the development. The same person who locked the earlier discussion then blanked this one. They have also yet to actually state their position. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:00, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | It started off at the [[Magnus]] disambiguation page. Basically, a post by Gary Russell stating that Mag(n)us from the Flashback(comic) was always supposed to be [[The Master]]. Confirmed by Warwick Scott Gray, the person who actually wrote Flashback(comic). And that there is nothing in any media which makes that an impossibility. Someone else then took that to mean that I was stating that the War Chief is the Master. Not my original intent, but he said he was "going to support me". This site's policy is that anything in a Target novelisation which gives extra background to, without contradicting the original tv serial counts. so, the long passages of text are from Target novelisations of [[The War Games]], [[Terror of the Autons]], The Doomsday Weapon([[Colony in Space]]) and [[The Sea Devils]]. As well as a real-world interview with Malcolm Hulke. This was then greeted with "But what about Timewyrm:Exodus and [[Divided Loyalties]]?" So, it was then a job to show how [[Timewyrm: Exodus]] doesn't contradict any of the above. Fine. Then came the biggie "Divided Loyalties". I had to give text from that book, as well as text from other narrative sources, showing how it can't possibly exist in the same universe. Another user appeared, demanding I take it to the forum, and locking that discussion. Someone else, then said that [[Death Comes to Time]] is excluded because someone supposedly said somewhere that it was non-canon. Despite no evidence. This, despite Hulke's and Russell's real-world statements being dismissed as "non-narrative"! The only way to get everything here, was to place the entire discussion here. Simply glimpsing bits will omit the development. The same person who locked the earlier discussion then blanked this one. They have also yet to actually state their position. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:00, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:Oh. earlier, the same person told me that "the burden of proof [was] on [me] to show that Round 4 Part 3 of divided Loyalties can't be part of the DWU". Immediately after I did so, he locked the discussion, saying it's "unfair to other users". [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:04, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | :Oh. earlier, the same person told me that "the burden of proof [was] on [me] to show that Round 4 Part 3 of divided Loyalties can't be part of the DWU". Immediately after I did so, he locked the discussion, saying it's "unfair to other users". [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:04, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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: Now, 41, let's be a little more respectful to the admin. If it turns out the messiness of this discussion is my fault by the way, I apologise. 41, I expected at one point to back you up, but you'll have to organise your points before I consider still doing that. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 12:23, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | : Now, 41, let's be a little more respectful to the admin. If it turns out the messiness of this discussion is my fault by the way, I apologise. 41, I expected at one point to back you up, but you'll have to organise your points before I consider still doing that. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 12:23, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | ||
I've chosen not to involve myself in this debate simply because I haven't read any of the sources in question. But from my understanding, ''[[The Quantum Archangel(novel)]]'' has appearances by the Deca. Hopefully that might be able to shed some further light on the subject and help out. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 12:58, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | I've chosen not to involve myself in this debate simply because I haven't read any of the sources in question. But from my understanding, ''[[The Quantum Archangel (novel)]]'' has appearances by the Deca. Hopefully that might be able to shed some further light on the subject and help out. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 12:58, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:Well, what does it say? That's why I posted all those "walls of text". because that's what it actually says in the relevant books, magazines etc. I haven't read Quantum Archangel. Does anyone have the actual passage(s)? [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:04, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | :Well, what does it say? That's why I posted all those "walls of text". because that's what it actually says in the relevant books, magazines etc. I haven't read Quantum Archangel. Does anyone have the actual passage(s)? [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:04, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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Thus, Magnus can not possibly be the War Chief. Not the original thing I set out to show, but using this wiki's own rules, there is no other conclusion. 17:27, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | Thus, Magnus can not possibly be the War Chief. Not the original thing I set out to show, but using this wiki's own rules, there is no other conclusion. 17:27, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | ||
: Pure and simple speculation. [[Special:Contributions/170.185.224.19|170.185.224.19]]<sup>[[User talk:170.185.224.19#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:36, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | : Pure and simple speculation. [[Special:Contributions/170.185.224.19|170.185.224.19]]<sup>[[User talk:170.185.224.19#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:36, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | ||
Which part is "pure and simple speculation"? Could you elaborate? | |||
1)Nowhere is Divided Loyalties is the phrase "War Chief" ever used. | |||
2)Divded Loyalties does not describe the War Games to a tee. Most notably, the fact that Magnus is erased from ever having existed by the Time Lords at a time that is prior to Timewyrm:Exodus | |||
3)Gary Russell edited Flashback and wrote Divided Loyalties | |||
4)Nowhere in Flashback is the phrase "War Chief" ever used either | |||
5)Flashback states that there is no chance for a reconcilliation between Thete and Magnus | |||
6)It is stated here that Narrative elements define biographies, anything else gets mentioned in "behind-the-scenes" | |||
7)Someone already removed the Master part from the biography of the Man with the Rosette, because while it implies he's the Master, and while the writer stated that it's meant to be the Master....it is never explicitly stated that the Man with the Rosette IS the Master | |||
8)My Master=War Chief quotes from the novelisations, and real-life were deemed not good enough, because while it actually describe the supposed ''two characters'' as being the same to a tee, it never states explicitly that they are the same in-narrative | |||
9)Likewise real-world sources wouldn't count, except as behind-the-scenes | |||
10)Therefore....Magnus is not the War Chief from a narrative perspective. Again, '''Where in Divided Loyalties(or anywhere else) does it unambiguously state that Magnus is the War Chief?''' [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:21, November 8, 2012 (UTC) | |||
== Clarification == | |||
Okay. In ''one'' paragraph of no more than 5 short, non-bullet-pointed sentences please state your proposal. You (restarted) this page by saying "This started ..." What is ''this'', precisely? What are you trying to get changed? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 16:31: Fri 09 Nov 2012</span> | |||
1)The original intention was rejected, as we have to go by narrative source, not real-world intentions, and not implications | |||
2)There is nothing in a narrative sense that states unambiguously that Magnus is the War Chief(it's implied, but there are too many differences between the two, and it's never said outright in a way that is unambiguous) | |||
3)There is nothing in a narrative sense that unambiguously states that Koschei/The Master can not also be the War Chief. True, there is nothing narrative that unambiguously states that they are the same Time Lord. But there is nothing narrative that makes rules out the ''possibility''. | |||
4)Just as the Man with the Rosette's article was changed to say that "behind-the-scenes" it was '''meant''' that he is The Master, while all narrative biography of him being the Master was removed...so Magnus/War Chief should be separated. There should be a separate Magnus article, with behind-the-scenes stating that he was meant to be the Master(in Flashback) and the War Chief(in Divided Loyalties). Magnus should also be mentioned in the behind-the-scenes of the War Chief and Master articles, but not included in the narrative biography proper | |||
5)The Magnus, War Chief and Master articles should have behind-the-scenes references to the others. In particular, the War Chief and Master articles should have behind-the-scenes information, stating that some narrative implies that they are the same Time Lord, while other narrative implies that they are two different Time Lords. But this wiki should have no definite statement on the matter either way. Until a narrative element comes along definitively making a statement that is..... [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:15, November 10, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:Nope. Still no idea what you're talking about. Point 1 is completely obscure. Still not getting what this has to do with ''Divided Loyalties''. Come to the point, please. Assume I've read none of your previous comments, start over, keep it short, and don't bullet-point or number your paragraphs. Take one paragraph, 250 words max, and tell us simply what you want to change about this wiki. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 05:53: Sat 10 Nov 2012</span> | |||
:::??? What about the above don't you understand? Is English not your home language? "Point 1" was that I originally came here with real-world sources, as well as in-narrative sources that overwhelmingly implied something(but didn't state it 100% outright). But that was deemed not enough, as it needs to be a clear and unambiguous narrative element that is used for biographies/character histories etc. Any "Real-world" material can only be included in the "behind-the-scenes" section. Thus, using, purely narrative elements, there is nothing at all whatsoever that umambiguously states who "Magnus" is. We know who he's ''implied'' to be. But we need narrative elements. There is also nothing at all whatsoever that makes it impossible for the Master and the War Chief to be the same Time Lord. There is also nothing that unambiguously states they ARE the same. But there is nothing that means they ''can not'' be. Thus, any articles relating to these aspects need to be corrected. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 06:32, November 10, 2012 (UTC) | |||
Ok, so you're saying that we have to say that the Master and the War Chief are the same character because nothing in-universe says they're not? By that logic, we could say that Rose is a chameleon arched version of the Rani. I mean, a chameleon arch changes a person's behavior as well as their genetics and the Rani could have regenerated before hand so she looks different. It has never been stated in universe that she is or isn't, and it is entirely possible for them to be or not to be the same person. However we do not go around adding "Rose and the Rani are the same person" to all relevant articles because the notion is completely absurd! [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] [[User talk:Imamadmad|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:15, November 10, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:I'm trying to help you, 41. You clearly want something done around here, but you're not being very clear about what it is. The title of this thread is ''very'' ambiguous, and what you've said in your most recent post bears little relation to your initial point. I and others have asked you multiple times to clarify your position in simple language, but you haven't done it. Now, you've moved on to insulting me. Please be aware that we do have a strict policy [[tardis:no personal attacks|against personal attacks]], and you have just crossed it. I'm going to assume you're just frustrated because this is all perfectly clear in your mind. However, trust me: as someone who has read and determined the archive status for ''every single'' Panopticon thread ever written, I can safely say I've never seen anything quite this opaque. | |||
:I think the difficulty you're having is that you're assuming that we've all managed to connect the dots between [[Forum:How to handle the Deca]], [[Talk:Magnus]] and points that you've made at [[Tardis talk:Canon policy/Archive 2]] and [[Talk:Season 18B]]. | |||
:Try simpler, more direct language. | |||
:'''Do''' use language like "I propose that <whatever>" or "I think <this thing here> should be changed because of <those reasons over there>." | |||
:'''Do''' give quotes of specific passages of existing text on the wiki that you think is wrong. | |||
:'''Don't''' assume your audience has read ''Divided Loyalties''. | |||
:'''Don't''' assume your audience cares. Give us a compelling reason why this ''matters''. | |||
:'''Consider''' breaking up your requests into discrete parts. Perhaps you should finish the discussion at [[Forum:How to handle the Deca]], before moving to a discussion about a ''specific'' member of the Deca like Magnus. | |||
:I ''am'' interested in trying to figure out what you're trying to say. But it's been days now, and this thread is no closer to making a solid proposal. That needs to change quickly, or we're going to have to archive this thread and move on. ''Please'' make your next post to this thread a succinct one. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 02:34: Sun 11 Nov 2012</span> | |||
Trying not to care but could the point of this discussion be summed up as: Magnus, the War Chief, and the Master should be at three separate articles with behind-the-scenes notes indicating how they are connected by authors' intents. This is how the Man with the Rosette is handled. Only two stories refer to this Magnus and neither name him as somebody else. Divided Loyalties implies he is the War Chief but the continuity is so poor it is a bad fit. (Don't worry about Quantum Archangel. It doesn't mention WC or Magnus.) --[[Special:Contributions/65.24.187.122|65.24.187.122]]<sup>[[User talk:65.24.187.122#top|talk to me]]</sup> 04:02, November 11, 2012 (UTC) | |||
: Yeah, that sounds about right. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 05:17, November 11, 2012 (UTC) | |||
::65.24.187.122 pretty much nailed it. Although I said the same thing. Basically, as with the Man with the Rosette, we know what the author's '''intent''' was, but '''nothing''' in-narrative ever states who Magnus is. Thus, Magnus should get his own article, with the behind-the-scenes stuff mentioning the author's intent. As far as the Master and the War Chief, '''again''', there i nothing in-narrative that makes it impossible for them to be the same character. I '''never''' stated that the articles must be merged or anything like that. I merely stated that having someone state on [[The War Games]] article:"MYTH:The War Chief is The Master. Several licensed novels show they are not" is a mistake. They should remain separate articles. But any definite statements about whether they are or aren't the same should be removed. There should however, be "behind-the-scenes" information added. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:35, November 11, 2012 (UTC) | |||
: There we go. Now I think the proplem here is that ''DL'' clearly hinted him to be the War Cheif, didn't it? [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 05:39, November 11, 2012 (UTC) | |||
::As I said upthread, statement in the Myths section of ''The War Games'' is easily excised, if someone could find a source for the myth that'd be nice and we could just leave it at that as a statement that there was a myth/fan theory. Otherwise it can be removed. | |||
::@65.24 bad continuity does not exclude a source, otherwise we'd be ignoring ''[[Blood Harvest (novel)|Blood Harvest]]'' and ''[[The Eight Doctors (novel)|The Eight Doctors]]'' (which undermine each other's continuity) and ''[[War of the Daleks (novel)|War of the Daleks]]'' (which retcons every Dalek TV story), then there's ''[[Lungbarrow (novel)|Lungbarrow]]'' and every new series story that mentions youth on Gallifrey and the list goes on. | |||
::@41.133 Coming at the discussion from the side that "there is nothing in-narrative that makes it impossible to be the same character" is ludicrous. As I and Imamadmad have said above that's using the lack of proof as proof. As I have shown above with 2 quotes from ''Divided Loyalties'' it's pretty clear that the Master and Magnus are separate people, and that Magnus is the War Chief. | |||
::''Divided Loyalties'' does more than hint, as, again is shown in the quote upthread it basically summarises ''The War Games'' saying that Magnus was the one involved. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 06:06, November 11, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:You're misunderstanding me again. I never said there was narrative proof that the Master is the War Chief. I said there is no narrative proof that the Master is not the War Chief. Two separate things. Divided Loyalties doesn't make it clear that Magnus is the War Chief. It ''implies'' it is the War Chief. The same way that Henrietta Street ''implies'' that the man with the rosette is the Master. And, using your logic, we should edit the [[Mindgame]] and [[Ace]] articles to say that Ace was in Mindgame. Because that's clearly what is implied. Though it is never stated outright. Divided Loyalties says that Koschei is the Master. It implies that magnus is the War Chief. Major difference. Or in The Hollows of Time, Professor Stream was written as the Master. However, in the finished version it never states that he '''is''' The Master. So he is just "Professor Stream". "The Man With The Rosette" is just that, nothing more. Sophie Aldred's character in Mindgame is just "Human". So why try and make Magnus the War Chief, when it never actually confirms that, merely suggests it? [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 07:20, November 11, 2012 (UTC) | |||
To summarise '''again''':The author's real-world intentions are not used for the biography/character information, only for the "behind-the-scenes". Sp...first the words "War Chief: are never used in either Flashback or Divided Loyalties. Secondly, read the War Chief's background/motivation on page 187 of Timewyrm:Exodus. Now read Magnus' background/motivation in Divided Loyalties. That's not "just a continuity error". That's two totally separate characters. Now remember that the War Chief survived The War Games, and went on to Timewyrm:Exodus. Magnus didn't survive his time with "the war lord"(who is described totally differently to the War Lord from the War Games), and was erased from ever having existed. Thus, Magnus, whoever he was, could no possibly have gone on to work with Hitler. The '''only''' similarity is that both Magnus and the War Chief were known to work with "war lords". First, we have no way of knowing whether they were even the same war lords. Secondly, the Doctor and the Master both worked for UNIT. The Doctor and Romana both worked for the Guardian. The Monk and the Master both worked with the Daleks. What does that prove? Two different Time Lords both working for the same people/organisation does '''not''' mean that those two Time lords are the same Time Lord. And, judging by the description in Divided Loyalties, it doesn't even sound as though the people Magnus worked with were even the same people the War Chief worked with. Magnus, of '''Flashback(comic)''' and '''Divided Loyalties''', who went and played with a race devoting themselves to war was, in fact, a completely different person to the War Chief.[[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:32, November 11, 2012 (UTC) | |||
::There is a greater amount of proof the states that Magnus is the War Chief than your above examples. | |||
::In the above quote, from Divided Loyalties, based on what we know of the War Games, the person "Magnus" can't be anyone other than the War Chief. This isn't the same as the Man with the Rosette, where it's actually very vague about who he is, or who "Human" in ''Mindgame'' is. | |||
::In ''Divided Loyalties'' we are presented in-narrative with what is essentially a plot summary of ''The War Games'' with the name "Magnus" at the start. | |||
::On its own, on that quote above alone, you might not be able to directly attribute the War Chief = Magnus, but looking at it in addition to other sources, like ''The War Games'', the information presented between these two leaves little doubt that the War Chief and Magnus are the same person. We use ''Divided Loyalties'' as a starting point and then corroborate that information with other sources of in-narrative information. With your examples there are none to support their implications. | |||
::We only have the information of the DWU to work with, and there is only one "War Lord", we only have one example of a Time Lord building TARDISes for aliens, based on this information combined with ''The War Games'' it can't be any other person. | |||
::As far as real world information, as I've continued to say it's interesting, but before you began this discussion I didn't know anything about the real world info and for the most part I've based my discussion on what's in-narrative. The behind the scenes info is an interesting side-note to the discussion. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 09:38, November 11, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:Sorry, I don't agree. '''It never states in Divided Loyalties, or any other narrative source, that Magnus is the War Chief.''' All we have are some similarities. In fact, if you watch The War Games, read Timewyrm:Exodus, and then read Divided Loyalties, you come away with the feeling that they're two similar, yet essentially different characters. But, either way, there's nothing at all that explicitly and unambiguously states that "Magnus is the War Chief". There is some hinting, there are some similarities and also some MAJOR differences. And, going by your reasoning, I suggest you go and read the first chapter of "Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon".... [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 10:06, November 11, 2012 (UTC) | |||
::So, as I read what you've said lately in this thread, I'm given to understand that this isn't really a policy matter, right? This is just you trying to bounce ideas off the community to help you clarify the ''content'' of certain articles in the main namespace. Despite the fact that you've been dropping in veiled references to problems you've had with site policy in the past, you're now actually trying to work within [[T:VS]] to rewrite articles you think are in violation of those policies. Have I read you correctly? | |||
::If that's what's going on, you probably wanted to be in [[Forum:Reference desk]] rather than [[Forum:Panopticon]]. This forum is for changing policy and the sort of "meta" issues that arise in the practical administration of a wiki. The reference desk is for asking about the narratives themselves. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 02:44: Wed 14 Nov 2012</span> | |||
First, you yourself were the one who said this discussion belongs here. Second, I'm not "bouncing off" anything. As has been stated several times(and you appear to be the only one who is unaware of this) I did originally provide a real-world source about a character. In addition the story featuring that character strongly implied who he was. I was told that real-world sources, as well as something merely being implied doesn't count. It needs a clear and unambiguous narrative connection. I then said "But there is no clear and unambiguous narrative connection in Divided Loyalties between the War Chief and Magnus". That's it. You have already moved the discussion from another place to here, and now you wish to move it again. Only after much trying to confuse the issue. Just when it appears that some sort of clear understanding is about to be reached, you appear and say "Oh no. This should have been in [forum x] all along" And then everyone is told to start from square one again, but explicitly told not to make any posts that were already made, while at the same time, not making any references ''to'' posts that were already made. I am sick and tired of this now, I have tried to work within your system, using your rules, your wiki policies. But now I see why so many people don't even try in the first place This whole thing has been an exercise in futility. Every time I produce what you're looking for, you change your mind, and say the discussion needs to be moved somewhere else. This is a complete and utter waste of time and effort. {{Unsigned-anon|41.133.0.18}} | |||
' | |||
: None of us have ever had any idea what you were talking about. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 05:16, November 14, 2012 (UTC) | |||
::Agreed with [[User:OttselSpy25]] here. This is definitely not an easy discussion to follow. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] [[User talk:Imamadmad|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:28, November 14, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::I regret that you're frustrated, 41. My role here is ''not'' that of a roadblock. I've been desperately trying to help you frame your argument in a way that makes sense to other users. As can be evidenced by the above two comments, '''you haven't done that'''. | |||
:::I think the biggest problem you're having is that you are not actually answering the questions posed to you. For instance, in your response to my earlier comments today, I asked you twice whether this was a policy matter, and you never answered that directly. Your answer to a yes/no question was to complain about the question. | |||
:::As for the implications of this discussion potentially being in the "wrong" forum, you're being well over-dramatic. All that means is that we'd change the template at the very top of this page to read {{tlx|forumheader|reference desk}}. That's it. It wouldn't require a frustrating "restart". | |||
:::And as I recall, what I ''actually'' advised you to do was to finish the discussion at [[Forum:How to handle the Deca]]. I believe I said something like, "once you decide how to handle the Deca, you'll understand more about the Magnus situation." I also thought, at the time, that you were trying to use this case to speak to policy, which would have made this the appropriate forum. But, and you've still not absolutely confirmed this, it now appears that you're merely talking about content, which is a matter for the reference desk. The reason it's important to choose the right forum is that it helps other users understand the broad context of your question. | |||
:::Overall though the entire problem with all of this is that you've stubbornly avoided asking a question. You just info-dumped a ''theory'', with no particular ''application'' of that theory in sight. It took ''another anonymous user'' to finally bring some sort of clarity to this thread. | |||
:::It's unfortunate that you're frustrated with this process. All I can say is that it's worked since 2005. Hundreds of questions have been asked and answered in these forums. Sometimes people have gotten frustrated with the fact that they've had to wait for a few days for obvious things to be resolved. But I've never seen anyone completely miss the point of forum communication quite the way you have. All that's required for successful use of the forums is to ask simple questions, then ''directly'' answer those questions that others pose to you. The reason you've been unsuccessful in your attempts is that you haven't done that. | |||
:::Communication is not the same as info-dumping. It's listening to what other parties have to say and directly addressing them. It's phrasing things so as to influence action. It's ''not only'' having an idea for change, ''but also'' crafting your words so as to achieve that change. That's why, as I've tried to point out to you, your first post should be something along the lines of "I think <this situation here> should be changed because of <that situation there>" or "One of our articles says <this thing here>, but I've read <this bit there> so should we change our approach to our article?" | |||
:::What's even weirder to me is '''that you know this'''. Take a look at your other thread, [[Forum:How to handle the Deca]]. Your first post there is ''very'' clear. You describe what the discussion is about and you say very clearly what you're proposing. I don't really understand why you're so vague in ''this'' thread, and why you've obstinately refused to give a clear statement of purpose here, despite being offered multiple chances to restart the thread. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 15:05: Wed 14 Nov 2012</span> | |||
No. You are making hollow personal insults. The only problem here is that you are deliberately trying to confuse the issue. This started out as a simple discussion which stated that the name "Magnus" was originally applied to a character in Flashback(comic) who both the editor and the actual writer unambiguously stated was The Master. However, you rejected that, as "only narrative elements count". | |||
Fine, if that's the way this works. I then pointed out, that using '''only narrative elements''' there is nothing '''conclusive''' in "Divided Loyalties" who states who this particular "Magnus" really is. Author Gary Russell stated in a real-world interview that "Magnus" is supposed to be The War Chief. However, he also(as noted earlier) stated that "Magnus" in Flashback(comic) is supposed to be The Master? It is sort of '''implied''' in Divided Loyalties that this "Magnus" is The War Chief, however there is nothing that '''explicitly''' states that fact, merely some similarities(and also a lot of differences). So, your response to that was to a)say "Where? Say what is says" and b)lock the original thread, and say "Star again", c)Pretend like you don't understand what I mean, | |||
So, I '''did''' cite the relevant passages, as well as relevant passages from several other episodes, books etc. that flatly contradict Divided Loyalties. Those other sources are all consistent with each other, yet contradict the later-written Divided Loyalties. Your response? Make insulting comments about how "stubborn and "obstinate" I am, and say "don't infodump". However, this so-called "infodumping" was precisely what I was told to do! Just like I was specifically told to start this new discussion here, only to now be told it's the wrong place. I notice you have also made some inaccurate edits to the locked "The Master" article, which shows that you either haven't actually read a word of what either I or various authors have actually put down or b)you couldn't care less about the actual Doctor Who lore/continuity, and only wish to push your own personal canon. | |||
To sum up:a)there is NOTHING in Divided Loyalties that states "Magnus is the War Chief" b)the FASA GAme doesn't actually say what you claim it does b)Divided Loyalties is so riddled with continuity errors, that to cherry-pick one ''implied'' statement, while willfully ignoring everything else is totally point-of-view, and not in keeping with a supposed source of information d)there are countless narrative sources which make it overwhelmingly obvious that the Master is the War chief. Do any of them ever state "The Master is The War Chief" in those exact words? No. Do they all make it far more clear than your ONE muddled "Anti-source" in DL? Absolutely. However, I'm sure you're going to insult me about "walls of text", being "obstinate", say this is the wrong forum, and possibly add some line to The Master article about how Terror of the Autons '''explicitly''' says the Master knows the War Chief as a separate Time Lord, and how the Doctor and the Master haven't seen each other since they both left Gallifrey. My only concern is that some people may come to this wiki looking for genuine information about Doctor Who, and may believe some of the falsehoods that are all over this wiki. | |||
::I'll let others be the judge of which of us has actually hurled insults in this thread. What I care about is understanding you and helping you express your concerns in a way that other people can comment upon them productively. | |||
::So far, I count at least five people in this thread who have no clear idea what you're talking about: me, [[user:Tangerineduel]], [[User:Shambala108]], [[User:Imamadmad]] and [[User:OttselSpy25]]. At least one other person, [[user:170.185.224.19]], seems to have divined your intent, but labelled it "pure speculation". Only one person responding to this thread has seemingly understood you and refactored things in a form that you agreed with. | |||
::If six people either don't understand you or don't agree with you, '''you have failed to make your case.''' By any objective measure, the consensus of this thread is that we don't know what the heck you're talking about. It's not my failure, it's not Tangerineduel's failure: it's ''six'' people independently arriving at the conclusion that, as OS25 said, "None of us have ever had any idea what you were talking about". | |||
::I'm gonna give you one more shot, and if you don't give us something we can work with, I'm locking the thread and throwing away the key, because what''ever'' it is you're trying to say, you have zero consensus to proceed. | |||
::Please ''explicitly'' answer these questions, and keep your answers brief. | |||
::#Are you trying to change some policy of this wiki? If so, what is that policy? | |||
::#Is the following statement an accurate and complete statement of what you're trying to accomplish: "Magnus, the War Chief, and the Master should be at three separate articles with behind-the-scenes notes indicating how they are connected by authors' intents." | |||
::{{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 01:49: Sun 25 Nov 2012</span> | |||
41: Basically, as I see it, people aren't confused about the fact that you believe the Master and the War Chief are the same character, but everyone is confused about what you want to do about it. Well, that's my confusion anyway. There's no point in deciding a piece of information is right, or at least not wrong, if we can't do anything with it. This forum is aimed at understanding and changing wiki policy and the way articles are edited. So, if we agree (I'm not saying we are, but if) that the two characters are not not the same person, how can we use that information on this wiki? If it's just to edit the BTS sections of a couple of articles to say, while citing sources, that some stories suggest a connection between the characters, well, what's stopping you from doing that. As long as it's in the behind the scenes section and properly sourced, I can see any problem with the information. But discussing it further seems to suggest you want to do more with the info. Is this the case? If so, what do you want to do with it. If not, well, I personally think we're done here. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] [[User talk:Imamadmad|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:25, November 27, 2012 (UTC) | |||
@czechout | |||
1)I was told to come to this page. If this should be on separate "policy" page, nobody made that clear until well into this discussion. The only "policy" I m attempting to change is to the way certain articles are written. | |||
2)Yes, as nothing in either "Flashback" or "Divided Loyalties" ever '''explicitly''' states who Magnus is. | |||
2b)In addition, other behind-the-scenes information should include who characters were '''supposed to be''', eg. The Man with the Rosette was '''intended''' to be The Master | |||
2c)You have edited several articles to state that "Several novels explicitly state that the Master is not the War Chief" Could you provide a list of which novels, and where they say that? | |||
...So, yes, using this wiki's policies, the articles [[Magnus]], [[The War Chief]] and [[The Master]] should be three separate articles, although there must be behind-the-scenes information giving author's intent. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:13, November 27, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:Okay, so this ''whole'' thing was about '''confirming''' policy, not changing it? Generally, people don't start discussions in which they argue ''agreement'' with policy. If all you were doing was saying, "according to ''a'', ''b'' and ''c'' narratives, ''x'', ''y'' and ''z'' things are true, then you needn't have discussed that with anyone. That's just called, ''writing an article''. Your tone throughout has suggested — and ''this'' is what I and a lot of people seem to think is confusing — that you were using this case of Magnus to grumble about policy. Or to seek permission. Or ''something'' other than, "I think the article should be written in ''this'' way because of ''these'' facts. What do the rest of you think?" Your tone here has been quite different than at [[Forum:How to deal with the Deca]], and it's that difference which has caused confusing. I think we've all believed there was something of policy ''substance'' at the centre of this particular Tootsie-Pop — and it turns out there's nothing, really. | |||
:As for 2c), I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I've not specifically edited any article as to that point. It's possible that some articles that I've edited have ''included'' that point, but I've not been the originator of such information. I don't even know which are the "several articles" to which you refer. It's a convention of Wiki editing that only the differences between edits (diffs) are that to which any particular editor can lay claim. | |||
:If you're speaking of [[The Master]] do remember that this article's current base was written at The Master/Rewrite, which was largely assembled by others from the constituent "Master (incarnation)" series. So, yes, there's a point at which I imported /Rewrite into the main article, but that was purely technical. I wasn't "vouching" for any of the information, and hadn't even read it at that point, frankly. I was just accepting the community's months' long work as a starting point. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 18:03: Wed 28 Nov 2012</span> | |||
First, as far as "permission" or "policy" I did attempt to edit one other page, but was told that this needed a discussion, and I was redirected here. Next, is it really necessary for you to use phrases like "grumble", "Toostie-Pop" and "there's nothing, really"? | |||
Again, the discussion is about articles. When I have attempted have discussions of the relevant article's talk page, someone has immediately said "Go to the forum for changing policies". So here we are, and now you're making insults because I'm on the forum for changing policies! | |||
But the point is, does anyone have any relevant comments about the Magnus page, The War Chief page, The Master page? [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:28, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:As much as I'm loathed to repeat myself…up thread I provided fairly inarguable proof that the Magnus is the War Chief, before 41.133 shouts me down on that point, I will also refer to a previous discussion regarding speculation, [[Forum:Speculation - What is and what isn't?]]. | |||
:And to quote CzechOut from that thread | |||
::''"Authors don't need to spoon feed us a lot of exposition for us to come to a reasonable conclusion of what they're talking about. Do they? Isn't there a place for the sly reference and the well-written background note?"'' | |||
:In Divided Loyalties, page 248, it's not even a sly reference or background note. It states quite clearly that Magnus was the one who went and worked with the War Lords, then gives a summary of ''The War Games''. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 06:07, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | |||
Actually, the description there is significantly different to The War Games. And Divided Loyalties also tells us(p96) that only people who have the "Rassilon Imprimature" can travel in time, control a TARDIS, and regenerate. It then later(p248) tells us that neither the Doctor nor the Master ever got that "Rassilon Imprimature". | |||
But that's not the point. Again, as I have stated many times before. Read Chapter 1 of ''Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon''. Here we learn that there have only been two TARDISes stolen up to that point(one by the Doctor, and one by the Master). The Master was involved with ''There were tens of thousands of humans from the planet Earth, stranded on another planet where they thought they were re-fighting all the wars of Earth’s terrible history.'', but The Doctor interrupted that by alerting the Time Lords....Terrance Dicks' "Terror of the Autons'' tells us that the Doctor and The Master met recently before 'Autons', that "The Master" is a new name(ie. he had another name when he last met the Doctor), that he had been manipulating wars, that the Master's accomplices had had their life-streams thrown into reverse. Not only did they not exist, they never would have existed. The Doctor is surprised to hear that the Master had a working TARDIS when they met, and the Master was at the same place the Doctor was when the Doctor was captured, only the Master got away. The actual tv serial shows us that they have both regenerated since their last recent meeting. The Doctor also mentions that he has seen the Master's powers of hypnotism, but that he has seen strong-willed people offer resistance to it. The novelisation of the ''War Games'' has the War Chief know for a fact that the "traveller in a time-space machine" MUST be the Doctor, as they are the '''only two''' renegade Time Lords. It also tells us that the War Chief and the Doctor were once friends. TV's ''Frontier In Space''(Episode 4) shows us that The Master knows the events of the ''War Games''. And, although you don't like real-world sources, it still must be said that Malcolm Hulke(who wrote the War Games and three Delgado stories) explicitly stated that during his era there were only '''two''' renegade Time Lords, the Doctor and the Master. | |||
That is actually spoonfeeding. There is no way around that, except maybe to ignore it, as others have done. Note also, that the comic "Flashback" was written as a '''Master''' origin story. In fact the Marvel Encyclopedia lists it using those exact words. However, many people identified the similarity between Magnus(the pre-Delgado Master) and...the War Chief. Both Gary Russell and Warwick Scott Gray stated that it was, indeed, a Master origin story. | |||
On the other side, we have a '''dream sequence''' in a novel that also tells us such fascinating facts as the "Rassilon Imprimature" one above, that Mortimus was at the Academy with the Doctor, and left Gallifrey BEFORE the Doctor, that the Rani left Gallifrey of her own accord(thereby nullifying the whole motivation behind the character in the first place, see "Mark of the Rani"), that the FIFTH Doctor finds out the Toymaker's origin(making the Sixth Doctor in the Nightmare Fair a complete imbecile)...and oh yeah read Timewyrm:Exodus where Kriegslieter explains his reason for leaving Gallifrey. Now read Divided Loyalties where Magnus explains his reasons for leaving Gallifrey. They're 100 per cent different. | |||
So, AGAIN, people are ignoring ALL the evidence in the Target books and the actual TV EPISODES. People are ignoring the dozens of continuity errors throughout Divided Loyalties(that must actually place it in its own self-contained continuity). However, they are slavishly sticking to the idea that "Koschei is the Master, Magnus if the War Chief. Therefore it's two people". As I stated elsewhere, this is cherrypicking. And it is totally inconsistent, and utterly improper for what is supposed to be a factual bank. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:08, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:There is also the fact that it's a '''dream'''. We already know that the dream can '''not''' be a literal depiction of events(Timewyrm:Exodus' version of War Chief's motivation vs what happens in the DREAM, the whole Rasillon Imprimature thing and many many others). All we have at the end is Koschei being the Master(even though ''The Dark Path'' '''explicitly''' states that he was NOT called "Koschei" at the Academy. He only took that name MUCH later.). And Magnus, supposedly, becoming the War Chief based on '''some''' similarities. But are those two facts mutually exclusive? Since we '''know''' the dream can not possibly be a literal depiction of events, and since we've seen screwed-up dreams(eg. Tegan's Mara dreams), there is actually nothing at all stopping Magnus, Koschei, The War Chief and The Master all being the same character. Now, I'm 100% sure that someone will completely misinterpret what I am saying here. So, to summarise: | |||
a)using the '''exact same''' criteria that removed the Man With the Rosette's being the Master, Magnus can not be the War Chief, the Master or anyone other than just Magnus. | |||
b)There is nothing in any narrative source whatsoever that makes it impossible for the Master and the War chief to actually be the same person(although multiple articles here say it's "Explicitly stated in several novels". But of voruse no one can provide names and examples...) | |||
c)If "the writers don't need to spoonfeed the public" then, as per my examples, and several others the Master is the War Chief. | |||
d)The whole sequence with the Deca is a f**d-up DREAM, where the events are known for a fact to be totally different than what has been clearly established in several sources. Thus, either we accept that Divided Loyalties is NOT a literal depiction, but rather some sort of "Alice in Wonderland"-style jumbled-up retelling, OR Divided Loyalties exists in a continuity all of its own. | |||
e)What do '''these'' two statements "prove"? i)K'Anpo Rimoche was a mentor to the Doctor when the Doctor was a boy. b)The Third Doctor first met Cho Je on Earth, after Mike Yates tipped the Doctor off to some mysterious happenings,,,? Yes, K'Anpo Rimoche IS Cho Je AND there were several scenes where they were in the same place at the same time. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:23, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | |||
I would be remiss in not mentioning ''The Time Thief'' from the 1974 Doctor Who Annual. Generally the Annuals were treated as lesser, but this wiki regards all narrative sources as valid. A brief recap...military forces from various periods in Earth's history are attacking UN cargoes. Actually not ALL eras, only up until the First World War. The Doctor and Jo investigate, and are transported to another planet. The Doctor knows who's behind it "Take me to the Master" he says to the soldiers. Arriving at a psychedelic-looking base, the doctor discovers that the Master is working with a group of aliens. Using hypnotism, and the ability to take humans from any period in Earth's history, he plans to create a superarmy. "Up to your old tricks again", says The Doctor. However, the Doctor is able to reprocess the hypnotised soldiers, and use a control panel which appears to be controlled by moving around geometric shapes to return the Earth military to their proper periods. The Doctor and Jo escape back to earth, the aliens turn on the Master. It appears that it's the end of The Master(and Jo even believes as much). But The Doctor has seen him escape from a situation like this before. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:53, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:Nice. There's also these quotes from transcripts of the episodes: | |||
''The War Games'': | |||
DOCTOR: But to help people like that to conquer the galaxy? | |||
WAR CHIEF: Not people like that, people like us. I intend to take over as Supreme Galactic Ruler. You can help me to rule, if you will cooperate | |||
... | |||
WAR CHIEF: We were both Time Lords and we both decided to leave our race. | |||
DOCTOR: I had reasons of my own. | |||
WAR CHIEF: Just as I had. | |||
DOCTOR: Your reasons are only too obvious. Power! | |||
WAR CHIEF: How much have you learnt of our plans? | |||
DOCTOR: I know that you've been kidnapping soldiers from the Earth from various times in it's history and bringing them here to kill one another. | |||
WAR CHIEF: But do you realise our ultimate objectives? | |||
DOCTOR: No objective can justify such slaughter. | |||
WAR CHIEF: The war games on this planet are simply the means to an end. The aliens intend to conquer the entire galaxy. A thousand inhabited worlds. | |||
DOCTOR: Yes, but why choose the people of the Earth? | |||
WAR CHIEF: They are the most suitable recruits for our armies. Man is the most vicious species of all. | |||
DOCTOR: Well, that simply isn't true. | |||
WAR CHIEF: Consider their history. For a half a million years they have been systematically killing each other. Now we can turn this savagery to some purpose. We can bring peace to the galaxy, and you can help. You see, I'm not the cold-hearted villain you suppose me to be. My motives are purely peaceful. | |||
... | |||
WAR CHIEF: We are going to bring a new order to the galaxy, one United Galactic Empire. | |||
DOCTOR: An empire of slaves, with you as one of it's rulers. | |||
''Colony In Space'': | |||
MASTER: Doctor, why don't you come in with me? We're both Time Lords, we're both renegades. We could be masters of the galaxy! Think of it, Doctor, absolute power! Power for good. Why, you could reign benevolently, you could end wars, suffering, disease. We could save the universe. | |||
DOCTOR: No, absolute power is evil. | |||
MASTER: Consider carefully, Doctor. I'm offering you a half-share in the universe. | |||
... | |||
MASTER: You must see reason, Doctor. | |||
DOCTOR: No, I will not join you in your absurd dreams of a galactic conquest. | |||
MASTER: Why? Why? Look at this. Look at all those planetary systems, Doctor. We could rule them all! | |||
DOCTOR: What for? What is the point? | |||
MASTER: The point is that one must rule or serve. That's a basic law of life. Why do you hesitate, Doctor? Surely it's not loyalty to the Time Lords, who exiled you on one insignificant planet? | |||
DOCTOR: You'll never understand, will you? I want to see the universe, not rule it. | |||
MASTER: Then I'm very sorry, Doctor. | |||
(The Master aims his laser gun at the Doctor, and the Guardian's panel rises.) | |||
MASTER: What's happening? | |||
DOCTOR: Wait and see. | |||
(The Guardian's throne comes out of the wall.) | |||
MASTER: What is it? | |||
DOCTOR: The ultimate development of life on this planet. | |||
GUARDIAN: Why have you returned? What do you want here? | |||
MASTER: I want to restore this city and this planet to their former glory. | |||
DOCTOR: Don't listen to him, sir. | |||
MASTER: You have here a wonderful weapon. Why, with it you could bring good and peace to every world in the galaxy. | |||
DOCTOR: On the contrary. He'll bring only death and destruction. | |||
[[Special:Contributions/137.158.153.203|137.158.153.203]]<sup>[[User talk:137.158.153.203#top|talk to me]]</sup> 07:17, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
The problem here is that the discussion has basically gone something like this" | |||
41:I have real-world sources saying that Magnus from Flashback was specifically created to be The Master, and that the writers of the Brayshaw and Delgado serials say the Master and the War Chief are the same guy. | |||
TW:Sorry, we only go with '''narrative''' sources. Those real-world sources can go in behind-the-scenes information, but it's narrative sources we want. | |||
41:(supplies multiple narrative sources providing overwhelming evidence that the Master is the War Chief) | |||
TW:Er, No, that's just ''implied''. Do you have anything that ever explicitly says "The War Chief is The Master"? | |||
41:Not in those exact words, no. | |||
TW:Well, then, it's not good enough. | |||
41:Ok, but then it never explicitly says in Divided Loyalties that magnus is the War Chief, it's only implied. By the way, why does it say on multiple pages that "Several novels explicitly state that The War chief isn't The Master", when in fact, '''one''' novel ''implies'' it, but in fact nothing ever states that explicitly? | |||
TW:We didn't edit that, someone else must have(...note some of those articles are locked, and only admins can edit them. So if the admins didn't...) Oh, and we don't need the narrative sources to spoonfeed us, a sly reference will do. And it mentions the War Games in divided Loyalties, and that Magnus was part of it. | |||
41:Ok, if we don't actually need explicit mentions after all, then what about the numerous implied narrative sources linking the Master to the War games, the Master to the War Chief etc.? | |||
TW:You are a stubborn, obstinate, hollow Tootsie-Pop. We only go with '''narrative''' sources. And it needs to '''explicitly''' state something. | |||
(repeat) [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:56, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
: No, it's more like this: | |||
: 41:I have real-world sources saying that Magnus from Flashback was specifically created to be The Master, and that the writers of the Brayshaw and Delgado serials say the Master and the War Chief are the same guy. | |||
:TW:Sorry, we only take narrative sources | |||
:41:(supplies multiple narrative sources providing overwhelming evidence that the Master is the War Chief) | |||
:TW:Uh, no, that was just a bunch of text, none of it suggested anything. | |||
:41:Not in those exact words, no. | |||
:TW:What? Look, if you don't have anything else to go on- | |||
:41:Ok, but then it never explicitly says in Divided Loyalties that magnus is the War Chief, it's only implied. By the way, why does it say on multiple pages that "Several novels explicitly state that The War chief isn't The Master", when in fact, '''one''' novel ''implies'' it, but in fact nothing ever states that explicitly? | |||
:TW:That was almost strait out said, with very strong implying. What you have, in the mean while... Was just quotes about the Master and the War Chief described similarly... | |||
:41:Ok, if we don't actually need explicit mentions after all, then what about the numerous implied narrative sources linking the Master to the War games, the Master to the War Chief etc.? | |||
:TW:Give me some and I'll listen! | |||
: Basically, you think that the most simple things are sources when they aren't you say that something not being stated out as wrong makes it right. You say that loose quotes and speculation are enough to write an article off of. You say a lot of things and we disagree. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 15:09, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
What? Again? My "repeat" comment was prescient, no? | |||
Off the top of my head... | |||
a)the novelisation of Colony In Space has two Time lords stating that only two TARDISes have ever been stolen, one by someone calling himself "The Doctor", and one by someone calling himself "The Master". The Master was involved with a scheme where humans from various periods in earth's history were taken to another planet, and hypnotised into thinking they were still fighting in those wars. The Doctor alerted the Time Lords to this. | |||
b)the novelisation of Terror of the Autons states that the Master was involved in manipulating wars. The Doctor alerted the Time Lords, but the Master got away. He got away, because it was believed he didn't have a working TARDIS, when if fact he did. The Doctor is angry because the Time Lords took him, and made him stand trial for his crimes, even though the Master's ere far worse. The Doctor's punishment was to be exiled to Earth. The Master's accomplices were erased from history(as though they never existed). The Master was using a different name during these events, however, and "The Master" is a new name. | |||
c)The actual television serial of Terror of the Autons tells us that the Doctor and The Master met recently, although both were in different incarnations. The Doctor knows about the Master's powers of hypnotism, has recently seen them, but also saw that certain stubborn humans are able to offer resistance. The Master has come after the Doctor after the Doctor recently ruined his scheme by alerting the Time Lords. | |||
d)In Frontier In Space(television) The Master knows the events of the War Games, which is odd, considering those events were erased from history/undone by the Time Lords. So only, the Doctor, the War Chief, and those three Time Lords would know these events ever happened. And the Master ain't the Doctor or a member of the High Council. | |||
e)In the novelisation of the War Games when the War Chief learns that a "time-space machine" has landed, he immediately knows it '''must''' be The Doctor, because the Doctor and him are the '''only two''' renegade Time Lords. | |||
f)In the novelisation of The Sea Devils The Doctor and Jo have a conversation where the Doctor tells Jo that he and The Master are the'''only two''' renegade Time Lords. | |||
Now, anyone with any common sense can know that that is indeed straight out saying they are the same character. | |||
My only conclusions here are that you are either | |||
a)someone whose first language clearly is not English | |||
b)possessing a religious belief about this. | |||
:Furthermore it wasn't "just a bunch of text". Have you actually read any of it? Have you actually read Divided Loyalties? the one with that "Rassilon Imprimature" stuff? | |||
The main difference between the Master's war games, and Magnus' war games is that the Master's actually resemble the War Chief's War Games from tv. Magnus'(in Divided Loyalties) had him building TARDISes(the War chief built SIDRATs), working for a moody paranoid war lord(The War Chief worked for an icy War Lord). It was during one of these bouts of paranoia that the paranoid war lord had Magnus executed. It was after the Security Chief provided irrefutable evidence that the War Chief was planning on betraying him that the War Lord(whose mood hardly changed at all) had the War Chief shot. The Time Lords erased Magnus from ever having existed. The War Chief got away from the Time Lords and went after the Doctor for revenge. | |||
That doesn't convince me in the slightest, nice try though. I'm not sure he is the one with the religious belief here. [[User:TARDIS43|TARDIS43]] [[User talk:TARDIS43|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:06, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
I dislike your personal attacks on me. For the record, I am agnostic. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 16:39, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
Well it just shows that you don't understand simple English then. Because by "religious beliefs", I clearly meant you had an absolute belief in something, and no evidence to the contrary will change your deeply rooted dogmas. | |||
And, to "TARDIS43", if that really "doesn't convince you in the slightest", then you must be mentally challenged. You know what? I don't need this nonsense. This isn't a "TARDIS Wikia". It's a "Tard Wikia". You are all arrogant, narrow-minded idiots. You have done nothing but be personally insulting, demeaning, and dismissive. '''because I provided in-universe narrative sources that proved something you dislike'''. Everything has been dismissed out of hand. I'm sure none of you even read a word of it. All you do is cling to some book that also tells us that the Doctor can't travel in time, control a TARDIS or regenerate. And I'm quite sure most of you haven't even read that either. But hey, Malcolm Hulke(writer of the War Games, Colony in Space, the Sea Devils and Frontier in Space, and MANY others) and Robert Holmes(writer of Terror of the Autons, the Deadly Assassin, The Ultimate Foe and MANY MANY MANY others) both stated outright that the Master is the War Chief. Warwick Scott Gray(writer of Flashback and MANY others) stated outright that Magnus is the Master. But what does any of that count for when there are fucktards like YOU who can't understand simple fucking English. Fuck all of you and your pathetic excuse for a Wiki. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 17:42, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
You can believe what you want, but you are wrong and no amount of insulting people who don't take to your poor evidence will ever change that. Perhaps you can start your own wiki? This one clearly isn't for you.[[User:TARDIS43|TARDIS43]] [[User talk:TARDIS43|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:37, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
: You know what? Think this wikia is really horrible. I invite you, no I IMPOLORE YOU, visit [[w:c:Southpark|South Park wikia]]. Then dare call this a bad wikia, simply because your speculation is being ignored. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 18:55, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
==Closing== | |||
When the F-bomb gets dropped in anger, the thread — and the editing rights — go away. This discussion is well and truly over. Please do not restart on any other page. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 03:37: Sat 01 Dec 2012</span> | |||