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Forum:Magnus, Divided Loyalties and more (view source)
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{{ | {{archive|Panopticon archives}}[[Category:Discussions without clear resolution]] | ||
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2)The questions as to why/when/where things like Death Comes to time and Dimensions in Time are labelled non-DWU still stand. When did the creators of these, the Cushing movies, or various stories that tie into Dimensions in Time '''ever''' say those stories were non-DWU? And if they didn't what were the criteria for listing them as non-DWU here? Surely those criteria should be applied the same to every story, not just those select few? | 2)The questions as to why/when/where things like Death Comes to time and Dimensions in Time are labelled non-DWU still stand. When did the creators of these, the Cushing movies, or various stories that tie into Dimensions in Time '''ever''' say those stories were non-DWU? And if they didn't what were the criteria for listing them as non-DWU here? Surely those criteria should be applied the same to every story, not just those select few? | ||
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3)Even if it is felt, for whatever reason, that the War Chief and the Master are two separate characters, there is clearly NOTHING in any media that states that they ''can not be'' the same character. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:16, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | 3)Even if it is felt, for whatever reason, that the War Chief and the Master are two separate characters, there is clearly NOTHING in any media that states that they ''can not be'' the same character. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:16, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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: This issue is obviously '''very''' important to you. However, you don't seem to care about the people you are trying to convince. This page is a long wall of text that will turn away many readers. Instead of copy/pasting the other arguments, try giving a '''short''' summary of your arguments. Then you might get more discussion. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:49, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | : This issue is obviously '''very''' important to you. However, you don't seem to care about the people you are trying to convince. This page is a long wall of text that will turn away many readers. Instead of copy/pasting the other arguments, try giving a '''short''' summary of your arguments. Then you might get more discussion. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:49, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | ||
It started off at the [[Magnus]] disambiguation page. Basically, a post by Gary Russell stating that Mag(n)us from the Flashback(comic) was always supposed to be [[The Master]]. Confirmed by Warwick Scott Gray, the person who actually wrote Flashback(comic). And that there is nothing in any media which makes that an impossibility. Someone else then took that to mean that I was stating that the War Chief is the Master. Not my original intent, but he said he was "going to support me". This site's policy is that anything in a Target novelisation which gives extra background to, without contradicting the original tv serial counts. so, the long passages of text are from Target novelisations of [[The War Games]], [[Terror of the Autons]], The Doomsday Weapon([[Colony in Space]]) and [[The Sea Devils]]. As well as a real-world interview with Malcolm Hulke. This was then greeted with "But what about Timewyrm:Exodus and [[Divided Loyalties]]?" So, it was then a job to show how [[Timewyrm:Exodus]] doesn't contradict any of the above. Fine. Then came the biggie "Divided Loyalties". I had to give text from that book, as well as text from other narrative sources, showing how it can't possibly exist in the same universe. Another user appeared, demanding I take it to the forum, and locking that discussion. Someone else, then said that [[Death Comes to Time]] is excluded because someone supposedly said somewhere that it was non-canon. Despite no evidence. This, despite Hulke's and Russell's real-world statements being dismissed as "non-narrative"! The only way to get everything here, was to place the entire discussion here. Simply glimpsing bits will omit the development. The same person who locked the earlier discussion then blanked this one. They have also yet to actually state their position. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:00, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | It started off at the [[Magnus]] disambiguation page. Basically, a post by Gary Russell stating that Mag(n)us from the Flashback(comic) was always supposed to be [[The Master]]. Confirmed by Warwick Scott Gray, the person who actually wrote Flashback(comic). And that there is nothing in any media which makes that an impossibility. Someone else then took that to mean that I was stating that the War Chief is the Master. Not my original intent, but he said he was "going to support me". This site's policy is that anything in a Target novelisation which gives extra background to, without contradicting the original tv serial counts. so, the long passages of text are from Target novelisations of [[The War Games]], [[Terror of the Autons]], The Doomsday Weapon([[Colony in Space]]) and [[The Sea Devils]]. As well as a real-world interview with Malcolm Hulke. This was then greeted with "But what about Timewyrm:Exodus and [[Divided Loyalties]]?" So, it was then a job to show how [[Timewyrm: Exodus]] doesn't contradict any of the above. Fine. Then came the biggie "Divided Loyalties". I had to give text from that book, as well as text from other narrative sources, showing how it can't possibly exist in the same universe. Another user appeared, demanding I take it to the forum, and locking that discussion. Someone else, then said that [[Death Comes to Time]] is excluded because someone supposedly said somewhere that it was non-canon. Despite no evidence. This, despite Hulke's and Russell's real-world statements being dismissed as "non-narrative"! The only way to get everything here, was to place the entire discussion here. Simply glimpsing bits will omit the development. The same person who locked the earlier discussion then blanked this one. They have also yet to actually state their position. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:00, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:Oh. earlier, the same person told me that "the burden of proof [was] on [me] to show that Round 4 Part 3 of divided Loyalties can't be part of the DWU". Immediately after I did so, he locked the discussion, saying it's "unfair to other users". [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:04, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | :Oh. earlier, the same person told me that "the burden of proof [was] on [me] to show that Round 4 Part 3 of divided Loyalties can't be part of the DWU". Immediately after I did so, he locked the discussion, saying it's "unfair to other users". [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:04, November 6, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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: Now, 41, let's be a little more respectful to the admin. If it turns out the messiness of this discussion is my fault by the way, I apologise. 41, I expected at one point to back you up, but you'll have to organise your points before I consider still doing that. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 12:23, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | : Now, 41, let's be a little more respectful to the admin. If it turns out the messiness of this discussion is my fault by the way, I apologise. 41, I expected at one point to back you up, but you'll have to organise your points before I consider still doing that. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 12:23, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | ||
I've chosen not to involve myself in this debate simply because I haven't read any of the sources in question. But from my understanding, ''[[The Quantum Archangel(novel)]]'' has appearances by the Deca. Hopefully that might be able to shed some further light on the subject and help out. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 12:58, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | I've chosen not to involve myself in this debate simply because I haven't read any of the sources in question. But from my understanding, ''[[The Quantum Archangel (novel)]]'' has appearances by the Deca. Hopefully that might be able to shed some further light on the subject and help out. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 12:58, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:Well, what does it say? That's why I posted all those "walls of text". because that's what it actually says in the relevant books, magazines etc. I haven't read Quantum Archangel. Does anyone have the actual passage(s)? [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:04, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | :Well, what does it say? That's why I posted all those "walls of text". because that's what it actually says in the relevant books, magazines etc. I haven't read Quantum Archangel. Does anyone have the actual passage(s)? [[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.18|41.133.0.18]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:04, November 7, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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:As for 2c), I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I've not specifically edited any article as to that point. It's possible that some articles that I've edited have ''included'' that point, but I've not been the originator of such information. I don't even know which are the "several articles" to which you refer. It's a convention of Wiki editing that only the differences between edits (diffs) are that to which any particular editor can lay claim. | :As for 2c), I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I've not specifically edited any article as to that point. It's possible that some articles that I've edited have ''included'' that point, but I've not been the originator of such information. I don't even know which are the "several articles" to which you refer. It's a convention of Wiki editing that only the differences between edits (diffs) are that to which any particular editor can lay claim. | ||
:If you're speaking of [[The Master]] do remember that this article's current base was written at | :If you're speaking of [[The Master]] do remember that this article's current base was written at The Master/Rewrite, which was largely assembled by others from the constituent "Master (incarnation)" series. So, yes, there's a point at which I imported /Rewrite into the main article, but that was purely technical. I wasn't "vouching" for any of the information, and hadn't even read it at that point, frankly. I was just accepting the community's months' long work as a starting point. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 18:03: Wed 28 Nov 2012</span> | ||
First, as far as "permission" or "policy" I did attempt to edit one other page, but was told that this needed a discussion, and I was redirected here. Next, is it really necessary for you to use phrases like "grumble", "Toostie-Pop" and "there's nothing, really"? | First, as far as "permission" or "policy" I did attempt to edit one other page, but was told that this needed a discussion, and I was redirected here. Next, is it really necessary for you to use phrases like "grumble", "Toostie-Pop" and "there's nothing, really"? | ||
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But the point is, does anyone have any relevant comments about the Magnus page, The War Chief page, The Master page? [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:28, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | But the point is, does anyone have any relevant comments about the Magnus page, The War Chief page, The Master page? [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:28, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:As much as I'm loathed to repeat myself…up thread I provided fairly inarguable proof that the Magnus is the War Chief, before 41.133 shouts me down on that point, I will also refer to a previous discussion regarding speculation, [[Forum:Speculation - What is and what isn't?]]. | |||
:And to quote CzechOut from that thread | |||
::''"Authors don't need to spoon feed us a lot of exposition for us to come to a reasonable conclusion of what they're talking about. Do they? Isn't there a place for the sly reference and the well-written background note?"'' | |||
:In Divided Loyalties, page 248, it's not even a sly reference or background note. It states quite clearly that Magnus was the one who went and worked with the War Lords, then gives a summary of ''The War Games''. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 06:07, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | |||
Actually, the description there is significantly different to The War Games. And Divided Loyalties also tells us(p96) that only people who have the "Rassilon Imprimature" can travel in time, control a TARDIS, and regenerate. It then later(p248) tells us that neither the Doctor nor the Master ever got that "Rassilon Imprimature". | |||
But that's not the point. Again, as I have stated many times before. Read Chapter 1 of ''Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon''. Here we learn that there have only been two TARDISes stolen up to that point(one by the Doctor, and one by the Master). The Master was involved with ''There were tens of thousands of humans from the planet Earth, stranded on another planet where they thought they were re-fighting all the wars of Earth’s terrible history.'', but The Doctor interrupted that by alerting the Time Lords....Terrance Dicks' "Terror of the Autons'' tells us that the Doctor and The Master met recently before 'Autons', that "The Master" is a new name(ie. he had another name when he last met the Doctor), that he had been manipulating wars, that the Master's accomplices had had their life-streams thrown into reverse. Not only did they not exist, they never would have existed. The Doctor is surprised to hear that the Master had a working TARDIS when they met, and the Master was at the same place the Doctor was when the Doctor was captured, only the Master got away. The actual tv serial shows us that they have both regenerated since their last recent meeting. The Doctor also mentions that he has seen the Master's powers of hypnotism, but that he has seen strong-willed people offer resistance to it. The novelisation of the ''War Games'' has the War Chief know for a fact that the "traveller in a time-space machine" MUST be the Doctor, as they are the '''only two''' renegade Time Lords. It also tells us that the War Chief and the Doctor were once friends. TV's ''Frontier In Space''(Episode 4) shows us that The Master knows the events of the ''War Games''. And, although you don't like real-world sources, it still must be said that Malcolm Hulke(who wrote the War Games and three Delgado stories) explicitly stated that during his era there were only '''two''' renegade Time Lords, the Doctor and the Master. | |||
That is actually spoonfeeding. There is no way around that, except maybe to ignore it, as others have done. Note also, that the comic "Flashback" was written as a '''Master''' origin story. In fact the Marvel Encyclopedia lists it using those exact words. However, many people identified the similarity between Magnus(the pre-Delgado Master) and...the War Chief. Both Gary Russell and Warwick Scott Gray stated that it was, indeed, a Master origin story. | |||
On the other side, we have a '''dream sequence''' in a novel that also tells us such fascinating facts as the "Rassilon Imprimature" one above, that Mortimus was at the Academy with the Doctor, and left Gallifrey BEFORE the Doctor, that the Rani left Gallifrey of her own accord(thereby nullifying the whole motivation behind the character in the first place, see "Mark of the Rani"), that the FIFTH Doctor finds out the Toymaker's origin(making the Sixth Doctor in the Nightmare Fair a complete imbecile)...and oh yeah read Timewyrm:Exodus where Kriegslieter explains his reason for leaving Gallifrey. Now read Divided Loyalties where Magnus explains his reasons for leaving Gallifrey. They're 100 per cent different. | |||
So, AGAIN, people are ignoring ALL the evidence in the Target books and the actual TV EPISODES. People are ignoring the dozens of continuity errors throughout Divided Loyalties(that must actually place it in its own self-contained continuity). However, they are slavishly sticking to the idea that "Koschei is the Master, Magnus if the War Chief. Therefore it's two people". As I stated elsewhere, this is cherrypicking. And it is totally inconsistent, and utterly improper for what is supposed to be a factual bank. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:08, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:There is also the fact that it's a '''dream'''. We already know that the dream can '''not''' be a literal depiction of events(Timewyrm:Exodus' version of War Chief's motivation vs what happens in the DREAM, the whole Rasillon Imprimature thing and many many others). All we have at the end is Koschei being the Master(even though ''The Dark Path'' '''explicitly''' states that he was NOT called "Koschei" at the Academy. He only took that name MUCH later.). And Magnus, supposedly, becoming the War Chief based on '''some''' similarities. But are those two facts mutually exclusive? Since we '''know''' the dream can not possibly be a literal depiction of events, and since we've seen screwed-up dreams(eg. Tegan's Mara dreams), there is actually nothing at all stopping Magnus, Koschei, The War Chief and The Master all being the same character. Now, I'm 100% sure that someone will completely misinterpret what I am saying here. So, to summarise: | |||
a)using the '''exact same''' criteria that removed the Man With the Rosette's being the Master, Magnus can not be the War Chief, the Master or anyone other than just Magnus. | |||
b)There is nothing in any narrative source whatsoever that makes it impossible for the Master and the War chief to actually be the same person(although multiple articles here say it's "Explicitly stated in several novels". But of voruse no one can provide names and examples...) | |||
c)If "the writers don't need to spoonfeed the public" then, as per my examples, and several others the Master is the War Chief. | |||
d)The whole sequence with the Deca is a f**d-up DREAM, where the events are known for a fact to be totally different than what has been clearly established in several sources. Thus, either we accept that Divided Loyalties is NOT a literal depiction, but rather some sort of "Alice in Wonderland"-style jumbled-up retelling, OR Divided Loyalties exists in a continuity all of its own. | |||
e)What do '''these'' two statements "prove"? i)K'Anpo Rimoche was a mentor to the Doctor when the Doctor was a boy. b)The Third Doctor first met Cho Je on Earth, after Mike Yates tipped the Doctor off to some mysterious happenings,,,? Yes, K'Anpo Rimoche IS Cho Je AND there were several scenes where they were in the same place at the same time. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:23, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | |||
I would be remiss in not mentioning ''The Time Thief'' from the 1974 Doctor Who Annual. Generally the Annuals were treated as lesser, but this wiki regards all narrative sources as valid. A brief recap...military forces from various periods in Earth's history are attacking UN cargoes. Actually not ALL eras, only up until the First World War. The Doctor and Jo investigate, and are transported to another planet. The Doctor knows who's behind it "Take me to the Master" he says to the soldiers. Arriving at a psychedelic-looking base, the doctor discovers that the Master is working with a group of aliens. Using hypnotism, and the ability to take humans from any period in Earth's history, he plans to create a superarmy. "Up to your old tricks again", says The Doctor. However, the Doctor is able to reprocess the hypnotised soldiers, and use a control panel which appears to be controlled by moving around geometric shapes to return the Earth military to their proper periods. The Doctor and Jo escape back to earth, the aliens turn on the Master. It appears that it's the end of The Master(and Jo even believes as much). But The Doctor has seen him escape from a situation like this before. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:53, November 29, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:Nice. There's also these quotes from transcripts of the episodes: | |||
''The War Games'': | |||
DOCTOR: But to help people like that to conquer the galaxy? | |||
WAR CHIEF: Not people like that, people like us. I intend to take over as Supreme Galactic Ruler. You can help me to rule, if you will cooperate | |||
... | |||
WAR CHIEF: We were both Time Lords and we both decided to leave our race. | |||
DOCTOR: I had reasons of my own. | |||
WAR CHIEF: Just as I had. | |||
DOCTOR: Your reasons are only too obvious. Power! | |||
WAR CHIEF: How much have you learnt of our plans? | |||
DOCTOR: I know that you've been kidnapping soldiers from the Earth from various times in it's history and bringing them here to kill one another. | |||
WAR CHIEF: But do you realise our ultimate objectives? | |||
DOCTOR: No objective can justify such slaughter. | |||
WAR CHIEF: The war games on this planet are simply the means to an end. The aliens intend to conquer the entire galaxy. A thousand inhabited worlds. | |||
DOCTOR: Yes, but why choose the people of the Earth? | |||
WAR CHIEF: They are the most suitable recruits for our armies. Man is the most vicious species of all. | |||
DOCTOR: Well, that simply isn't true. | |||
WAR CHIEF: Consider their history. For a half a million years they have been systematically killing each other. Now we can turn this savagery to some purpose. We can bring peace to the galaxy, and you can help. You see, I'm not the cold-hearted villain you suppose me to be. My motives are purely peaceful. | |||
... | |||
WAR CHIEF: We are going to bring a new order to the galaxy, one United Galactic Empire. | |||
DOCTOR: An empire of slaves, with you as one of it's rulers. | |||
''Colony In Space'': | |||
MASTER: Doctor, why don't you come in with me? We're both Time Lords, we're both renegades. We could be masters of the galaxy! Think of it, Doctor, absolute power! Power for good. Why, you could reign benevolently, you could end wars, suffering, disease. We could save the universe. | |||
DOCTOR: No, absolute power is evil. | |||
MASTER: Consider carefully, Doctor. I'm offering you a half-share in the universe. | |||
... | |||
MASTER: You must see reason, Doctor. | |||
DOCTOR: No, I will not join you in your absurd dreams of a galactic conquest. | |||
MASTER: Why? Why? Look at this. Look at all those planetary systems, Doctor. We could rule them all! | |||
DOCTOR: What for? What is the point? | |||
MASTER: The point is that one must rule or serve. That's a basic law of life. Why do you hesitate, Doctor? Surely it's not loyalty to the Time Lords, who exiled you on one insignificant planet? | |||
DOCTOR: You'll never understand, will you? I want to see the universe, not rule it. | |||
MASTER: Then I'm very sorry, Doctor. | |||
(The Master aims his laser gun at the Doctor, and the Guardian's panel rises.) | |||
MASTER: What's happening? | |||
DOCTOR: Wait and see. | |||
(The Guardian's throne comes out of the wall.) | |||
MASTER: What is it? | |||
DOCTOR: The ultimate development of life on this planet. | |||
GUARDIAN: Why have you returned? What do you want here? | |||
MASTER: I want to restore this city and this planet to their former glory. | |||
DOCTOR: Don't listen to him, sir. | |||
MASTER: You have here a wonderful weapon. Why, with it you could bring good and peace to every world in the galaxy. | |||
DOCTOR: On the contrary. He'll bring only death and destruction. | |||
[[Special:Contributions/137.158.153.203|137.158.153.203]]<sup>[[User talk:137.158.153.203#top|talk to me]]</sup> 07:17, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
The problem here is that the discussion has basically gone something like this" | |||
41:I have real-world sources saying that Magnus from Flashback was specifically created to be The Master, and that the writers of the Brayshaw and Delgado serials say the Master and the War Chief are the same guy. | |||
TW:Sorry, we only go with '''narrative''' sources. Those real-world sources can go in behind-the-scenes information, but it's narrative sources we want. | |||
41:(supplies multiple narrative sources providing overwhelming evidence that the Master is the War Chief) | |||
TW:Er, No, that's just ''implied''. Do you have anything that ever explicitly says "The War Chief is The Master"? | |||
41:Not in those exact words, no. | |||
TW:Well, then, it's not good enough. | |||
41:Ok, but then it never explicitly says in Divided Loyalties that magnus is the War Chief, it's only implied. By the way, why does it say on multiple pages that "Several novels explicitly state that The War chief isn't The Master", when in fact, '''one''' novel ''implies'' it, but in fact nothing ever states that explicitly? | |||
TW:We didn't edit that, someone else must have(...note some of those articles are locked, and only admins can edit them. So if the admins didn't...) Oh, and we don't need the narrative sources to spoonfeed us, a sly reference will do. And it mentions the War Games in divided Loyalties, and that Magnus was part of it. | |||
41:Ok, if we don't actually need explicit mentions after all, then what about the numerous implied narrative sources linking the Master to the War games, the Master to the War Chief etc.? | |||
TW:You are a stubborn, obstinate, hollow Tootsie-Pop. We only go with '''narrative''' sources. And it needs to '''explicitly''' state something. | |||
(repeat) [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:56, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
: No, it's more like this: | |||
: 41:I have real-world sources saying that Magnus from Flashback was specifically created to be The Master, and that the writers of the Brayshaw and Delgado serials say the Master and the War Chief are the same guy. | |||
:TW:Sorry, we only take narrative sources | |||
:41:(supplies multiple narrative sources providing overwhelming evidence that the Master is the War Chief) | |||
:TW:Uh, no, that was just a bunch of text, none of it suggested anything. | |||
:41:Not in those exact words, no. | |||
:TW:What? Look, if you don't have anything else to go on- | |||
:41:Ok, but then it never explicitly says in Divided Loyalties that magnus is the War Chief, it's only implied. By the way, why does it say on multiple pages that "Several novels explicitly state that The War chief isn't The Master", when in fact, '''one''' novel ''implies'' it, but in fact nothing ever states that explicitly? | |||
:TW:That was almost strait out said, with very strong implying. What you have, in the mean while... Was just quotes about the Master and the War Chief described similarly... | |||
:41:Ok, if we don't actually need explicit mentions after all, then what about the numerous implied narrative sources linking the Master to the War games, the Master to the War Chief etc.? | |||
:TW:Give me some and I'll listen! | |||
: Basically, you think that the most simple things are sources when they aren't you say that something not being stated out as wrong makes it right. You say that loose quotes and speculation are enough to write an article off of. You say a lot of things and we disagree. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 15:09, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
What? Again? My "repeat" comment was prescient, no? | |||
Off the top of my head... | |||
a)the novelisation of Colony In Space has two Time lords stating that only two TARDISes have ever been stolen, one by someone calling himself "The Doctor", and one by someone calling himself "The Master". The Master was involved with a scheme where humans from various periods in earth's history were taken to another planet, and hypnotised into thinking they were still fighting in those wars. The Doctor alerted the Time Lords to this. | |||
b)the novelisation of Terror of the Autons states that the Master was involved in manipulating wars. The Doctor alerted the Time Lords, but the Master got away. He got away, because it was believed he didn't have a working TARDIS, when if fact he did. The Doctor is angry because the Time Lords took him, and made him stand trial for his crimes, even though the Master's ere far worse. The Doctor's punishment was to be exiled to Earth. The Master's accomplices were erased from history(as though they never existed). The Master was using a different name during these events, however, and "The Master" is a new name. | |||
c)The actual television serial of Terror of the Autons tells us that the Doctor and The Master met recently, although both were in different incarnations. The Doctor knows about the Master's powers of hypnotism, has recently seen them, but also saw that certain stubborn humans are able to offer resistance. The Master has come after the Doctor after the Doctor recently ruined his scheme by alerting the Time Lords. | |||
d)In Frontier In Space(television) The Master knows the events of the War Games, which is odd, considering those events were erased from history/undone by the Time Lords. So only, the Doctor, the War Chief, and those three Time Lords would know these events ever happened. And the Master ain't the Doctor or a member of the High Council. | |||
e)In the novelisation of the War Games when the War Chief learns that a "time-space machine" has landed, he immediately knows it '''must''' be The Doctor, because the Doctor and him are the '''only two''' renegade Time Lords. | |||
f)In the novelisation of The Sea Devils The Doctor and Jo have a conversation where the Doctor tells Jo that he and The Master are the'''only two''' renegade Time Lords. | |||
Now, anyone with any common sense can know that that is indeed straight out saying they are the same character. | |||
My only conclusions here are that you are either | |||
a)someone whose first language clearly is not English | |||
b)possessing a religious belief about this. | |||
:Furthermore it wasn't "just a bunch of text". Have you actually read any of it? Have you actually read Divided Loyalties? the one with that "Rassilon Imprimature" stuff? | |||
The main difference between the Master's war games, and Magnus' war games is that the Master's actually resemble the War Chief's War Games from tv. Magnus'(in Divided Loyalties) had him building TARDISes(the War chief built SIDRATs), working for a moody paranoid war lord(The War Chief worked for an icy War Lord). It was during one of these bouts of paranoia that the paranoid war lord had Magnus executed. It was after the Security Chief provided irrefutable evidence that the War Chief was planning on betraying him that the War Lord(whose mood hardly changed at all) had the War Chief shot. The Time Lords erased Magnus from ever having existed. The War Chief got away from the Time Lords and went after the Doctor for revenge. | |||
That doesn't convince me in the slightest, nice try though. I'm not sure he is the one with the religious belief here. [[User:TARDIS43|TARDIS43]] [[User talk:TARDIS43|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:06, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
I dislike your personal attacks on me. For the record, I am agnostic. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 16:39, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
Well it just shows that you don't understand simple English then. Because by "religious beliefs", I clearly meant you had an absolute belief in something, and no evidence to the contrary will change your deeply rooted dogmas. | |||
And, to "TARDIS43", if that really "doesn't convince you in the slightest", then you must be mentally challenged. You know what? I don't need this nonsense. This isn't a "TARDIS Wikia". It's a "Tard Wikia". You are all arrogant, narrow-minded idiots. You have done nothing but be personally insulting, demeaning, and dismissive. '''because I provided in-universe narrative sources that proved something you dislike'''. Everything has been dismissed out of hand. I'm sure none of you even read a word of it. All you do is cling to some book that also tells us that the Doctor can't travel in time, control a TARDIS or regenerate. And I'm quite sure most of you haven't even read that either. But hey, Malcolm Hulke(writer of the War Games, Colony in Space, the Sea Devils and Frontier in Space, and MANY others) and Robert Holmes(writer of Terror of the Autons, the Deadly Assassin, The Ultimate Foe and MANY MANY MANY others) both stated outright that the Master is the War Chief. Warwick Scott Gray(writer of Flashback and MANY others) stated outright that Magnus is the Master. But what does any of that count for when there are fucktards like YOU who can't understand simple fucking English. Fuck all of you and your pathetic excuse for a Wiki. [[Special:Contributions/41.133.1.212|41.133.1.212]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.1.212#top|talk to me]]</sup> 17:42, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
You can believe what you want, but you are wrong and no amount of insulting people who don't take to your poor evidence will ever change that. Perhaps you can start your own wiki? This one clearly isn't for you.[[User:TARDIS43|TARDIS43]] [[User talk:TARDIS43|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:37, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
: You know what? Think this wikia is really horrible. I invite you, no I IMPOLORE YOU, visit [[w:c:Southpark|South Park wikia]]. Then dare call this a bad wikia, simply because your speculation is being ignored. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 18:55, November 30, 2012 (UTC) | |||
==Closing== | |||
When the F-bomb gets dropped in anger, the thread — and the editing rights — go away. This discussion is well and truly over. Please do not restart on any other page. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 03:37: Sat 01 Dec 2012</span> | |||