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I really can't believe some of the arguments I'm hearing with this topic. It's clear to me that most of you haven't actually read the book, and therefore you should really learn more about the content of the book before making these opinionated judgements. | I really can't believe some of the arguments I'm hearing with this topic. It's clear to me that most of you haven't actually read the book, and therefore you should really learn more about the content of the book before making these opinionated judgements. | ||
It has never been the policy of this wiki for us to base the majority of an argument on what writers say about the product, in fact, quite the opposite, we make policy on the sources themselves and the in-universe content of them. So really, what Lance Parkin has said about the book, in large part, is irrelevant. | It has never been the policy of this wiki for us to base the majority of an argument on what writers say about the product, in fact, quite the opposite, we make policy on the sources themselves and the in-universe content of them. So really, what Lance Parkin has said about the book, in large part, is irrelevant. | ||
I agree entirely with Tangerineduel on this one, several sources which are listed above refer directly to events that take place within TID, and some even have characters that overlap with the book. Seeing I is more or less a sequel to TID where the [[I]] are concerned, and certainly without TID, most of Seeing I's plot wouldn't make sense. And then we have the example of [[Larna]]; who crosses from TID into both The Gallifrey Chronicles and Unnatural History. | I agree entirely with Tangerineduel on this one, several sources which are listed above refer directly to events that take place within TID, and some even have characters that overlap with the book. Seeing I is more or less a sequel to TID where the [[I (Seeing I)|I]] are concerned, and certainly without TID, most of Seeing I's plot wouldn't make sense. And then we have the example of [[Larna]]; who crosses from TID into both The Gallifrey Chronicles and Unnatural History. | ||
Therefore from an in-universe perspective, it is clear that TID does have quite a large overlap with the DWU; even if there is doubt as to whether it takes place within the same timeline as our "mainstream Doctors". --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 22:15, April 25, 2012 (UTC) | Therefore from an in-universe perspective, it is clear that TID does have quite a large overlap with the DWU; even if there is doubt as to whether it takes place within the same timeline as our "mainstream Doctors". --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 22:15, April 25, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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Of course, neither course would be a statement about one or the other. However the distinction is rarely so clear when one is in the middle of a heated argument. For example, there's been a lot of discussion of the metafictional qualities of this work. As metafictional details concern themselves with things outside the incidents of the story, it has no reference to the in-universe "facts" of the story, any more than, say the references to Narnia in ''[[The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe]]: perhaps a "behind the scenes" note, but no more. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 01:23, May 3, 2012 (UTC) | Of course, neither course would be a statement about one or the other. However the distinction is rarely so clear when one is in the middle of a heated argument. For example, there's been a lot of discussion of the metafictional qualities of this work. As metafictional details concern themselves with things outside the incidents of the story, it has no reference to the in-universe "facts" of the story, any more than, say the references to Narnia in ''[[The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe]]: perhaps a "behind the scenes" note, but no more. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 01:23, May 3, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:Thank you, Bob. You're absolutely right about the metafictional elements: they're really irrelevant to this discussion, a complete red herring. However, you're wrong in saying that I want this included because of its quality, or because of my own vision of the Doctor Who universe (I abhor the phrase "personal canon", since it's a complete oxymoron, but that's neither here nor there). I want this included because there is textual evidence in several other novels, both prior and subsequent, that it should be included. ''The Infinity Doctors'' either introduces or gives key information about [[Patience (Cold Fusion)|Patience]], [[Savar]], [[Marnal]], the [[I]], [[Daniel Joyce]], [[Larna]]! [[Saldaamir]] and probably many others, all of whom appear in other novels; and in most of those cases, their other appearances are informed by their roles in ''TID''. In several of those cases, removing ''TID'' would critically diminish the entries for these characters. This, I think, is what Parkin means when he says that "References in ''[[Seeing I]]'', ''[[Unnatural History]]'', ''[[The Taking of Planet 5]]'', ''[[Father Time (novel)|Father Time]]'' and ''[[The Gallifrey Chronicles]]'' all make it clear that ''The Infinity Doctors'' (or at the very least events identical to it) took place in the "real" Doctor Who universe." And I maintain that it's not impossible to reconcile either the events or the details of ''TID'' with other stories in the ''Doctor Who'' universe. | :Thank you, Bob. You're absolutely right about the metafictional elements: they're really irrelevant to this discussion, a complete red herring. However, you're wrong in saying that I want this included because of its quality, or because of my own vision of the Doctor Who universe (I abhor the phrase "personal canon", since it's a complete oxymoron, but that's neither here nor there). I want this included because there is textual evidence in several other novels, both prior and subsequent, that it should be included. ''The Infinity Doctors'' either introduces or gives key information about [[Patience (Cold Fusion)|Patience]], [[Savar]], [[Marnal]], the [[I (Seeing I)|I]], [[Daniel Joyce]], [[Larna]]! [[Saldaamir]] and probably many others, all of whom appear in other novels; and in most of those cases, their other appearances are informed by their roles in ''TID''. In several of those cases, removing ''TID'' would critically diminish the entries for these characters. This, I think, is what Parkin means when he says that "References in ''[[Seeing I]]'', ''[[Unnatural History]]'', ''[[The Taking of Planet 5]]'', ''[[Father Time (novel)|Father Time]]'' and ''[[The Gallifrey Chronicles]]'' all make it clear that ''The Infinity Doctors'' (or at the very least events identical to it) took place in the "real" Doctor Who universe." And I maintain that it's not impossible to reconcile either the events or the details of ''TID'' with other stories in the ''Doctor Who'' universe. | ||
:That's not the case with ''The Curse of Fatal Death''. The Rowan Atkinson Doctor clearly says that he's in his ninth incarnation, and he then proceeds to regenerate four more times. It's just not possible to reconcile that with, say, the Matt Smith Doctor explicitly saying that he's in his eleventh incarnation. The uncertainties of ''TID'' are of a completely different quality from that. | :That's not the case with ''The Curse of Fatal Death''. The Rowan Atkinson Doctor clearly says that he's in his ninth incarnation, and he then proceeds to regenerate four more times. It's just not possible to reconcile that with, say, the Matt Smith Doctor explicitly saying that he's in his eleventh incarnation. The uncertainties of ''TID'' are of a completely different quality from that. | ||
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:::::And I'm not sure I can let you get away with implying there's some sort of time limit on the validity of an author's statements. It matters not one whit it was a statement from "a decade later". If we applied this notion more broadly, then we couldn't use any classic era DVD infotext, commentary, documentaries, ''nada''. Absolutely contemporaneous statements are hard to find, because 1998 is going back a bit far for most internet archives, and because he didn't give a print interview to DWM. Unfortunately, too, the book falls at that awkward time when nobody ''other'' than DWM would have given a damn, and when fanzines were very much on the wane. As far as I know, there's nothing contemporaneous to be had, aside from the substance of a contemporaneous DWM review, which clearly puts the book into the Land of Metaphor. Besides, you've consistently attacked the very first quote made on the page, without noticing there is a ''pattern'' of statements from Parkin. He's ''never'' declaratively said outright the thing is in the proper DWU. He's ''always'' hedged his bets, even in ''Ahistory'', even on his personal website. Whenever he's his own editor, his own writer, his own publisher, he consistently refuses the opportunity to just say, "Yeah, it's straight-up DWU." There's ''always'' a proviso, always a way out, always a tricky little wording that lets him hedge his bets. As of yet, I've never seen ''any'' quote from the author in which he tries to claim, '''unambiguously''', that the book takes place in the DWU. | :::::And I'm not sure I can let you get away with implying there's some sort of time limit on the validity of an author's statements. It matters not one whit it was a statement from "a decade later". If we applied this notion more broadly, then we couldn't use any classic era DVD infotext, commentary, documentaries, ''nada''. Absolutely contemporaneous statements are hard to find, because 1998 is going back a bit far for most internet archives, and because he didn't give a print interview to DWM. Unfortunately, too, the book falls at that awkward time when nobody ''other'' than DWM would have given a damn, and when fanzines were very much on the wane. As far as I know, there's nothing contemporaneous to be had, aside from the substance of a contemporaneous DWM review, which clearly puts the book into the Land of Metaphor. Besides, you've consistently attacked the very first quote made on the page, without noticing there is a ''pattern'' of statements from Parkin. He's ''never'' declaratively said outright the thing is in the proper DWU. He's ''always'' hedged his bets, even in ''Ahistory'', even on his personal website. Whenever he's his own editor, his own writer, his own publisher, he consistently refuses the opportunity to just say, "Yeah, it's straight-up DWU." There's ''always'' a proviso, always a way out, always a tricky little wording that lets him hedge his bets. As of yet, I've never seen ''any'' quote from the author in which he tries to claim, '''unambiguously''', that the book takes place in the DWU. | ||
:::::You say, "''The Infinity Doctors'' either introduces or gives key information about [[Patience (Cold Fusion)|Patience]], [[Savar]], [[Marnal]], the [[I]], [[Daniel Joyce]], [[Larna]]! [[Saldaamir]] and probably many others, all of whom appear in other novels; and in most of those cases, their other appearances are informed by their roles in ''TID''. In several of those cases, removing ''TID'' would critically diminish the entries for these characters." | :::::You say, "''The Infinity Doctors'' either introduces or gives key information about [[Patience (Cold Fusion)|Patience]], [[Savar]], [[Marnal]], the [[I (Seeing I)|I]], [[Daniel Joyce]], [[Larna]]! [[Saldaamir]] and probably many others, all of whom appear in other novels; and in most of those cases, their other appearances are informed by their roles in ''TID''. In several of those cases, removing ''TID'' would critically diminish the entries for these characters." | ||
:::::Would it though? I mean [[Patience (Cold Fusion)|Patience]] is, as you've alluded, a difficult character to understand. Would it ''really'' be more difficult to understand her if this book was declared ''verboten'' and the information on the page were thus moved to the behind the scenes section? I've never been talking about ''removing'' the information outright; just moving it to the behind the scenes area. | :::::Would it though? I mean [[Patience (Cold Fusion)|Patience]] is, as you've alluded, a difficult character to understand. Would it ''really'' be more difficult to understand her if this book was declared ''verboten'' and the information on the page were thus moved to the behind the scenes section? I've never been talking about ''removing'' the information outright; just moving it to the behind the scenes area. | ||
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No, Czechout, it's not a choice of one book or the Wiki. It's hard work to do it right or give up. I vote for hard work. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 20:15, May 8, 2012 (UTC) | No, Czechout, it's not a choice of one book or the Wiki. It's hard work to do it right or give up. I vote for hard work. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 20:15, May 8, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:Hard work is no match for logic, Bob. And there's no logical argument I can think of that allows us to ignore the statements of the copyright holder in this instance, but value them in others. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}00:50: Wed 09 May 2012 </span> | :Hard work is no match for logic, Bob. And there's no logical argument I can think of that allows us to ignore the statements of the copyright holder in this instance, but value them in others. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}00:50: Wed 09 May 2012 </span> | ||
::And, Bob, please stop oversimplifying what I'm saying. I '''never, ever''' said ''anything like'' "it's one book or the wiki". You ''know'' I was talking about the phenomenon of author-owned material. Because we ''do'' accept the words of authors in some cases, it would be fundamentally illogical to ignore Parkin's decided ambiguity in this instance. After all, we cover one of Parkin's ''other'' creations, ''[[I Scream (audio story)|I Scream]]'', ''solely'' on the basis that he, the copyright holder to the [[I]], has told us that it is a legitimate extension of the story of the [[I]]. That being the case, the logic by which we can ignore his statements in regards to ''Infinity'' eludes me. | ::And, Bob, please stop oversimplifying what I'm saying. I '''never, ever''' said ''anything like'' "it's one book or the wiki". You ''know'' I was talking about the phenomenon of author-owned material. Because we ''do'' accept the words of authors in some cases, it would be fundamentally illogical to ignore Parkin's decided ambiguity in this instance. After all, we cover one of Parkin's ''other'' creations, ''[[I Scream (audio story)|I Scream]]'', ''solely'' on the basis that he, the copyright holder to the [[I (Seeing I)|I]], has told us that it is a legitimate extension of the story of the [[I (Seeing I)|I]]. That being the case, the logic by which we can ignore his statements in regards to ''Infinity'' eludes me. | ||
::I don't mind a hard fight or tough talkin', Bob — but play fair. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}01:02: Wed 09 May 2012 </span> | ::I don't mind a hard fight or tough talkin', Bob — but play fair. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}01:02: Wed 09 May 2012 </span> |