Howling:River pretending not to know Clara?: Difference between revisions

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 This is my first time posting one of these, so let's see if I can get my thoughts out right. Also, I have to say I'm a big River Song fan, so I might just be keeping my hopes up that she'll return!
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 : Some of that may be Silurian technology but it looks as if the Doctor has been giving them a helping hand, too. And the '''standard''' Time Lord method of contacting TARDISes across time & space was via the telepathic circuits (seen in ''[[The Doctor's Wife (TV story)|The Doctor's Wife]]'' but used more in the classic series, when there were other Time Lords to use it). If the Doctor had given Vastra some of that Time Lord telepathic technology, for use in emergencies, it could have been it that Vastra used to contact River. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.74.123|89.241.74.123]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.74.123#top|talk to me]]</sup> 12:44, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
-In The Library,when River got 10 by mistake, she said she was using her normal methods of caling the Doctor. Perhaps this was again just a mistake that Vastra got RIver in the Library rather than alive River. By using the ghost River they leave open when River actually learned the Doctor's name, just sometime before she died. And any call to live River would also have to cross centuries.[[User:Phil Stone|Phil Stone]] [[User talk:Phil Stone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:19, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
+In The Library,when River got 10 by mistake, she said she was using her normal methods of caling the Doctor. Perhaps this was again just a mistake that Vastra got River in the Library rather than alive River. By using the ghost River they leave open when River actually learned the Doctor's name, just sometime before she died. And any call to live River would also have to cross centuries.[[User:Phil Stone|Phil Stone]] [[User talk:Phil Stone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:19, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
+Phil Stone, "any call to live River would also have to cross centuries": Indeed it would &, in the thread [[Howling:Moffat_lied...again|Moffat_lied...again]], 98.180.49.69 pointed out that the Trenzalore prophecy said that no '''living''' being could fail to answer or speak falsely -- but River, in ''[[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)|The Name of the Doctor]]'' '''wasn't''' a living being, so she'd be exempt from those constraints. Since Moffat could have had River turn up from an earlier point in her timeline, if he'd wanted to, the fact that he chose to have her appear ''post mortem'' is quite likely to be significant, possibly because of exactly that exemption (though there might be other reasons, too). Maybe it was just chance or error on Vastra's part (in universe) but it isn't likely to have been either chance or error on Moffat's part (out of universe). (I was 89 earlier.) --[[Special:Contributions/2.101.59.118|2.101.59.118]]<sup>[[User talk:2.101.59.118#top|talk to me]]</sup> 10:21, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
+Ok, I agree, but I am not sure what that gets us. Because ghost River is not "a living being", she could "fail to answer or speak falsely." Except it would seem she did neither.She answered the question of the GI, to the TardisTomb, and the TardisTomb opened. So either she did not speak falsely, or she had a secondary access command. The point may be that because she was not alive, she could get away with not speaking/verbalizing the command.
+But Ghost River will act like River, in this case not allowing GI to kill the hostages. But does ghost River really think she is being clever by not letting GI have the Doctor's name, but letting him into the tomb? The Doctor seems to be putting more importance on the latter than the former, though that could also be a dodge. What practical advantage for the Doctor (or Moffat) to use Ghost River here?
+Perhaps because the one way that Ghost River can function differently than River is in being a Ghost. Ghost River can just vanish once she has had her farewell with the Doctor, What would River do in the rest of the episode if she were there? Would she let Clara go into the Timestream, or would she do it herself? Clara is the Impossible Girl, so she must be the one who goes, but why/how would River know that? By staying behind she can tell the Doctor that Clara (unsplintered) is still alive. Would she let the Doctor leave her behind when he went after Clara? It strikes me that Ghost River serves to 'neaten' things up a bit for Moffat, by having a person that knows what River knows,(the Doctor's name, & its significance to him) acts like River acts (heroically, but compassionately) to a point, but can just drop out of the story as needed.
+I need to look at Ghost River's last scene again. I know she mentioned Spoilers with respect to Clara, I think. But did she mean it, does she know something more about Clara, or was it just a last bit of flirtatiousness? Did she know that she was the Imposssible Girl? How might be important. Bringing someone who does the impossible is a good way to foul up a prophacy.[[User:Phil Stone|Phil Stone]] [[User talk:Phil Stone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:46, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
+We don't know (& neither did the Doctor) what River knew. We know that the Doctor's real name was a way of gaining access to his timeline. We don't know that's '''all''' the knowledge of the Doctor's name could be used for. River might have been conducting a damage limitation exercise.
+Suppose she knew:
+#The GI entering the Doctor's timeline without knowledge of the Doctor's name could be counteracted (as it was, by Clara).
+#The GI entering the Doctor's timeline '''with''' knowledge of the Doctor's name could '''not''' be counteracted -- not fully, anyway.
+#Threatening Clara, Vastra, Jenny & Strax would eventually make the Doctor reveal his name -- possibly after one or more of the hostages had been killed.
+Anyone who knows the Doctor as well as River does would know that he would reveal his name to save the hostages.
+River is certainly aware that knowing the Doctor's name is a way to gain his trust. She used it that way in the Library. That, on its own, would make knowledge of the name dangerous. The GI or someone acting on the GI's behalf could use the name to gain the Doctor's trust at a critical moment, allowing the GI to do really terrible damage.
+By opening the tomb when she did, River stopped the GI learning the Doctor's name & kept all four of the hostages alive. That included Clara, who was the one who counteracted the damage to the timeline.
+'''Someone''' set Clara up to be at Trenzalore. The unknown "woman in the shop" wrote down the TARDIS phone number & told Clara it was a helpline -- "the best in the universe". Without that number, Clara wouldn't have been at Trenzalore to put things right. If she'd been killed before the GI got into the tomb, Clara wouldn't have been able to put things right.
+River has always been my prime suspect for the "woman in the shop". Next on the list is someone acting on River's behalf. What's more, even Amy is involved, if only peripherally, via her book ''[[Summer Falls]]''. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.74.86|89.241.74.86]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.74.86#top|talk to me]]</sup> 11:47, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
+That all makes good sense. And if Ghost River knew Clara's importance she would do what she had to do to get her in. If River was the woman in the shop, then Ghost River would know something of her importance. But for River to be the Woman in the Shop, she would have to know of Clara's importance. But River could not presumably learn that Clara is the Impossible Girl from Ghost River. Which suggests that Clara and the Doctor will meet River again (or leave her the sort of message that as an archeologist interested in the Doctor, she will find.)
+Unless: If Clara was everywhere, was she at the Library? If so, what happened to her? Was she amongst the people that Cal saved long ago? In that case its not clear that she could have saved the Doctor. If she arrived later, without the Doctor's advice she would have been lunch for the Vashtanerada. If she arrived at just the right time for him to not be aware of her (or it was one of those occasions she mentioned where the Doctor doesn't hear her) she might survive, but would River learn of her? If River knew of her before, she might preserve her secret as a Spoiler. But if she didn't know before the Library could she gain knowledge then? (If River met Clara at the Library, why would she trust Clara? Perhaps Clara told her that she knew that River knew his name. It may even have inspired River to tell him his name to gain his trust.) Would Clara have a com link or device that would allow Cal to save her to the hard drive/virtual world where Ghost River could meet her? (That would not solve the problem of River knowing to be the woman in the shop.But it would cover Ghost River, and the woman in the shop might be someone else.)
+Obviously there is room for every Doctor story to be reconsiderd with respect to Clara, though most don't need to be. But given the question of what River knew of Clara, and when, all the River stories probably should be (gently) reconsidered. Particularly the Moffet stories, like the Library. Just as we later learned there was a scene in the forest on the space ship which was not at all what it appeared to be, there may be something else to be "seen". Though perhaps if it's worth examining, it should have its own thread. Of course if River shows up herself and can learn about Clara, then it would all be much ado about nothing.[[User:Phil Stone|Phil Stone]] [[User talk:Phil Stone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:18, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
+Phil Stone, "If Clara was everywhere, was she at the Library?": I was wondering when someone else would spot the possibility that River set Clara up to be at Trenzalore '''because Clara told her to''' -- maybe not in the Library but sometime. The idea that Clara, either in her future or via one of her "echoes", initiated the whole process of which she was the result would be another of the "bootstrap" paradoxes of which Moffat is so fond.
+"If River met Clara ... why would she trust Clara?" By the time Clara entered the Doctor's timestream, she was starting to remember the events of ''[[Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS (TV story)|Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS]]''. During those events, Clara learned the Doctor's name. If she remembered that, then (either in her future or as one of her "echoes") Clara would have been able to gain River's trust in exactly the same way River gained the Tenth Doctor's trust -- by whispering the Doctor's name. By then, too, Clara knew that River knew the name, so (a) she'd not be giving the secret away to someone who didn't know it & (b) River would know that it was the right name. (I was 89 earlier.) --[[Special:Contributions/2.96.16.231|2.96.16.231]]<sup>[[User talk:2.96.16.231#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:02, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
+: Clara '''was''' in the Library, wasn't she? In the ''[[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)|The Name of the Doctor]]'', when Clara is in the Doctor's time stream, we see Ten at the Library, so presumably she was there. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:32, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
+: Yes, Clara saw Ten & Donna from behind, as they looked out from the balcony (or whatever it was). I wasn't doubtful that Clara interacted with River in the Library because I thought Clara wasn't there but because I thought that might be a bit too late in River's timestream. If Clara needed River to set things up, there'd not be much point telling her so only just before she (River) died & when River was rather fully occupied, anyway. Catching her at an earlier point in her timestream, when River would have the chance to do something about it, would make more sense. --[[Special:Contributions/2.96.16.231|2.96.16.231]]<sup>[[User talk:2.96.16.231#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:48, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
+:: This is such a brilliant conversation because we are all trying to figure this puzzle out! It's not an "I'm right, you're wrong" debate. I'm learning something from everything I'm reading.
+:: I only read some of the newest comments (above) because it's blowing my mind trying to follow the discussion. I'll get to more later. But a few things that occur to me:
+::: * The implications of Clara actually interacting in the Doctor's timeline throughout his life. I know that this is a new storyline and Moffat can't go back and rewrite DW history so I guess that we just have to take it on faith that the Doctor was too absorbed in whatever he was doing not to notice (until Christmas 2012) that he'd encountered Clara hundreds of times before. It does stretch plausibility even more so than postulating a Big Bang II!
+::: * If there was any foreknowledge on River's part about what was going to occur why would she (and the Doctor) tell Clara not to enter the timeline and then later try to discourage the Doctor from entering it himself. If she knew that Clara would actually help the Doctor's timeline, why would she discourage her from going? Because she didn't know this. Compare this to Amy...she had no way to know if Amy was even going to end up in the same location and time as Rory but she didn't discourage Amy from trying. [[User:Badwolff|Badwolff]] [[User talk:Badwolff|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:57, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
+:: River might well "tell Clara not to enter the timeline", if she already knew that she had done so & that Clara had gone ahead anyway. The same applies to "discouraging" the Doctor. Think back to Series 6, especially ''[[The Impossible Astronaut (TV story)|The Impossible Astronaut]]/[[Day of the Moon (TV story)|Day of the Moon]]''. River will go to extreme lengths to conceal her foreknowledge & to make sure events occur as they should. That characteristic can only have been reinforced (strongly) by her memory of what happened when she tried to change an event -- admittedly a fixed point -- in ''[[The Wedding of River Song (TV story)|The Wedding of River Song]]''.
+:: On the point about Amy: In ''[[Blink (TV story)|Blink]]'', the Doctor told Billy Shipton that he thought the same Angel had got him as had got the Doctor & Martha, '''because they all ended up in the same year'''. They also ended up close enough together for the Doctor & Martha to find Billy almost as soon as he arrived. There was only one Angel in the graveyard at the end of ''[[The Angels Take Manhattan (TV story)|The Angels Take Manhattan]]''. If River knew -- from the Doctor or from the book she had when they visited the crashed ''Byzantium'' -- that an individual Angel would always send its victims to about the same time & place, she could be fairly confident that Amy '''would''' find Rory again. We don't know River did know that fact about Angels but she behaved as if she knew it. (I was 2 earlier.) --[[Special:Contributions/92.17.167.53|92.17.167.53]]<sup>[[User talk:92.17.167.53#top|talk to me]]</sup> 22:33, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
+::: I'm starting to think that fans put a lot more effort into connecting all of the dots (or trying to) than Moffat (or Davies) does! [[User:Badwolff|Badwolff]] [[User talk:Badwolff|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:48, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
+::: Only '''starting''' to think that? (I've been 2 & 92 recently.) --[[Special:Contributions/89.242.73.239|89.242.73.239]]<sup>[[User talk:89.242.73.239#top|talk to me]]</sup> 01:57, June 11, 2013 (UTC)