Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/Last of the Time Lords: Difference between revisions
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:::: The Sontarans might have considered that "Sol 3 is closed for business" and if they were spying Earth , they would have noticed that a strange race called "Toclafane" already invaded it... They simply didn't know who were they dealing it, I call it a strategy, not a continuity error. | :::: The Sontarans might have considered that "Sol 3 is closed for business" and if they were spying Earth , they would have noticed that a strange race called "Toclafane" already invaded it... They simply didn't know who were they dealing it, I call it a strategy, not a continuity error. | ||
::How COULD the Sontarans still invade? There was an army of killer robots from the sky swarming the entire planet, nuclear missiles galore, and a crazy and dangerous Time Lord in control of it all. I think at that point they would just scrap their plans. Even if they wouldn't, they would at least have to radically rethink their plans. Are cars even used much in this essentially apocalyptic world anymore for the ATMOS thing to work? Even if they still wanted to go at it, doing so would require a lot of time to make a new strategy, considering all of the drastic changes to Earth in the time of the Master's rule. So I don't think this is a problem that the Master or anyone would face during the Year that Never Was. | ::How COULD the Sontarans still invade? There was an army of killer robots from the sky swarming the entire planet, nuclear missiles galore, and a crazy and dangerous Time Lord in control of it all. I think at that point they would just scrap their plans. Even if they wouldn't, they would at least have to radically rethink their plans. Are cars even used much in this essentially apocalyptic world anymore for the ATMOS thing to work? Even if they still wanted to go at it, doing so would require a lot of time to make a new strategy, considering all of the drastic changes to Earth in the time of the Master's rule. So I don't think this is a problem that the Master or anyone would face during the Year that Never Was. | ||
[[Category:DW TV discontinuity]] | [[Category:DW TV discontinuity]] |
Revision as of 14:34, 24 June 2017
You are exploring the Discontinuity Index, a place where any details or rumours about unreleased stories are forbidden.
Please discuss only those whole stories which have already been released, and obey our spoiler policy.
Please discuss only those whole stories which have already been released, and obey our spoiler policy.
This page is for discussing the ways in which Last of the Time Lords doesn't fit well with other DWU narratives. You can also talk about the plot holes that render its own, internal narrative confusing.
Remember, this is a forum, so civil discussion is encouraged. However, please do not sign your posts. Also, keep all posts about the same continuity error under the same bullet point. You can add a new point by typing:
* This is point one. ::This is a counter-argument to point one. :::This is a counter-argument to the counter-argument above * This is point two. ::Explanation of point two. ::Further discussion and query of point two. ... and so on.
- This is a point to do with all episodes featuring Jack, but why does the Doctor disable his Vortex Manipulator completely? I get why he would disable the time travel bit, but why not leave the teleport? From an in-universe POV a teleport is useful and would have been highly beneficial.
- You're assuming that the teleportation function of the Vortex Manipulator is not achieved through the same means as time travel is. Maybe to disable one, it disables both. Scientifically, the way time travel is done in the Whoniverse seems to be the theoretically possible method of generating and traveling through wormholes. Wormholes are tunnels connecting two separate points of warped spacetime. That makes them usable as shortcuts across spatial distances, as well as, if one mouth of the wormhole is accelerated relative to the other, for traveling to other points in time, too. So that means the Vortex Manipulator probably opens a small wormhole and sends the wearer through it to time travel. Well, that's all it would need to do to allow for instantaneous travel merely to a different spatial location (in other words, "teleport"), too, so why wouldn't both functions be operated through the same means - wormholes? Thus disabling one disables the other. And once you consider what the other version of teleportation would entail - copying all of the information of the whole body and clothes and consciousness of the entity to be teleported, destroying it all, and then sending it to a different location and recreating it there exactly - it becomes apparent that that would be impossible for the Manipulator to do, especially considering it would require saving, disassembling, and recreating the actual device responsible for the saving and disassembling and recreating itself - the Vortex Manipulator itself! - since it is being worn as an accessory on the person of who is to be teleported. Either way, though, technically the answer to your question is already given in the episode - the Doctor says he's not letting Jack have a "time-travelling teleport" because he "could go anywhere [ie. teleportation] - twice! [time travel] The second time to apologize." - if my understanding of that quote is correct.
- How did the Doctor know about the countdown a year before it was due?
- The Master is predictable, so the Doctor knew that he would never resist the temptation of having a "ticking clock" as part of his plan.
- In The Sound of Drums, the Doctor tells Jack that he shouldn't touch the paradox machine, as it could destroy the solar system. So why does he carelessly shoot at it with an Assault Rifle?
- When the Doctor warns him, he doesn't know what the paradox is yet. Once he knows what the paradox is, he probably determines that it's safe to destroy the machine. Furthermore, it's not as if they had much choice at that point, as all six billion Toclafane were rushing towards the Valiant.
- How did Martha know to walk round the Earth for a year based the Doctor telling her "use the countdown"?
- Not everything the Doctor told Martha was heard.
- The Doctor had integrated with the Archangel network and could possibly send psychic messages to Martha.
- How did the Master know about Rose absorbing the time vortex?
- The Doctor told Jack about Rose absorbing the time vortex near the end of Utopia, when Jack was in the radiation room, and Professor Yana heard them over the intercom.
- The Master was also in possession of the Doctor's TARDIS for an unknown length of time and might have gleaned the information from her data banks since the event in question occurred inside the console room.
- The Doctor told Jack about Rose absorbing the time vortex near the end of Utopia, when Jack was in the radiation room, and Professor Yana heard them over the intercom.
- Why did a soldier who had been loyal to the Master decide to obey Jack Harkness' orders?
- They are only loyal to the Master under duress.
- Or perhaps they had been hypnotised into serving the Master, and the Doctor broke the hypnosis with his psychic attack.
- How did Martha and the Doctor know when the countdown would take place?
- They did not need to know when the countdown took place. They only needed to spread the word to use it.
- If the Master was able to convert the TARDIS into a paradox machine in order to change history, what's to stop the Doctor using the same kind of machine to allow him to change the events of the Time War?
- The Doctor makes it clear that the Paradox Machine is not a good or safe thing. The Time War involved all kinds of temporal mayhem that could make use of a Paradox Machine to affect it even more difficult and dangerous.
- The End of Time explains why the Doctor would have good reason not to prevent the destruction of Gallifrey even if he could do so.
- When the Master talks about the Doctor's achievements, he mentions the Medusa Cascade and how he sealed it, this does not occur until Journey's End, so how did he know?
- He is referring to an earlier case of the Doctor sealing that rift. The Doctor himself mentions in The Stolen Earth having been in the Cascade before, when he was 90.
- Apparently the president of the USA is killed by the Toclafane and this is recognised post-time reversal. Wouldn't that cause international outrage the likes of which we would see a different ending?
- This may have been tempered by the subsequent death of the Master. In addition, it would almost certainly have been discovered thereafter that he hypnotised Britain into electing him.
- There's a brief mention in one of the NSAs about the UK bending over backward for the Americans to "repair the special relationship after the Saxon incident", or something like that, and it's not hard to believe that at least some segments of the US government would be happier to leave the UK acting a little more obsequious than usual for the next few years than to push things more openly. Since we haven't seen every diplomatic meeting in the history of the Whoniverse, we don't know all of the details, but that's hardly a continuity error.
- What happened to all the people who were on the Valiant when the President was assassinated but not present when the Paradox Machine was destroyed? To go one step further, what about the Toclafane vanguard who assassinated president Winters? Does that mean they are still on the loose? As the Valiant was rewound to where it was before, anyone on the Valiant at the time of assassination but not at the destruction of the paradox machine would have been killed (or rather stop existing). One step further, however, anyone NOT on the Valiant at the assassination but on it during the paradox machine's destruction should have been duplicated. How can all this be addressed?
- Fortunately we don't know of anyone that was on the Valiant when the paradox began and not when it ended, except the Toclafane that killed Winters, and we don't know of anyone that was not on the Valiant when the paradox began and on it when it ended.
- The Doctor says that time has reversed to "just after the president was assassinated but just before the spheres arrived", so what killed the president?
- The Doctor meant that it was before the scene shown where the sky splits open and all of the Toclafane pour out. Not the scene where the Toclafane first appear and kill President Winters. Also even if Toclafane from the split had killed him, unless they were on the Valiant, they would have been sent back to Utopia. The Valiant's position is the 'eye of the storm' so that the people aboard it still experienced the year 'which never was'. The Toclafane which killed him were not on the Valiant so they didn't make it.
- How did the Doctor repair the TARDIS when the Doctor wasn't worried that the Master could repair just the navigational systems and the Doctor had a lot more to repair?
- The Doctor is more familiar with his TARDIS and they do share a telepathic connection so he could have found it a lot easier to fix it.
- The Doctor had the device which locked the coordinates. He likely had a reverse function.
- Wouldn't The Year That Never Was have coincided with Davros's reality bomb since it runs into circa May 2009?
- Possibly. Whether the reality bomb was still created is unknown. It may have been as its creation was not affected directly by any events of series 4 so would still have been created. However, if it was indirectly affected by any Doctor Who adventures as yet unchronicled, the bomb may not have been created.
- Series 3 was set in 2007, stated in Human Nature by John Smith, and also Torchwood Series 1 is set in 2006/7. Seen as When Jack appears in Utopia, it is the end of Torchwood Series 1, that makes it 2007. And Martha states in The Sound of Drums it was only "4 days after they met". This means that 'the year that never was' took Earth into 2008, meaning (at most) the ATMOS incident would have started then maybe stopped by the Toclafane.
- Possibly. Whether the reality bomb was still created is unknown. It may have been as its creation was not affected directly by any events of series 4 so would still have been created. However, if it was indirectly affected by any Doctor Who adventures as yet unchronicled, the bomb may not have been created.
- How the Earth was stolen is unknown. It may have required infiltration by the Daleks, which the Toclafane may have detected. Whether the Earth was still of use is unknown also, as the Master was noted to have changed a lot of the landscape.
- It's plausible that there was a little skirmish between the Master and his Toclafane vs. some Dalek scouts, and the Daleks were chased away… shame we didn't get to see it, though.
- How the Earth was stolen is unknown. It may have required infiltration by the Daleks, which the Toclafane may have detected. Whether the Earth was still of use is unknown also, as the Master was noted to have changed a lot of the landscape.
- The Daleks may have noted that Sol 3 was "closed for business" and used another planet, such as the one that would become New Earth.
- Additionally - this is not necessarily another dimension, but a paradox generated within one - and this potentially negates the effects of the bomb.
- Also, history changes. Once there was a 2009 with neither the Master nor the Reality Bomb. Then the Master changed history, creating a second 2009. Then that was undone, restoring the original 2009. Then Davros changed history, creating a third 2009, which wasn't undone.
- Well, not until the cracks, which created yet another 2009… but the point stands.
- Also, history changes. Once there was a 2009 with neither the Master nor the Reality Bomb. Then the Master changed history, creating a second 2009. Then that was undone, restoring the original 2009. Then Davros changed history, creating a third 2009, which wasn't undone.
- It isn't explained how the Doctor converted the destroyed paradox machine back into the TARDIS. How did he repair it so fast?
- He's frequently shown expertise in manipulating and repairing the TARDIS, and the re-conversion may be deceptively simple.
- But he hasn't been able to fix the chameleon circuit for years which is just one part of the machine.
- On multiple occasions, he's expressed affection for the TARDIS's police-box appearance. Donna ended up with the Doctor's mind and knew how to fix it, so the Doctor does know how to fix the circuit, but chooses not to.
- But he hasn't been able to fix the chameleon circuit for years which is just one part of the machine.
- He's frequently shown expertise in manipulating and repairing the TARDIS, and the re-conversion may be deceptively simple.
- As The Eleventh Hour has shown, the TARDIS repairs itself after significant damage. Perhaps this is what happened here, except without an appearance change.
- Even though the Anti-Regeneration gun is a ruse wouldn't it be pointless since if the Master was suddenly killed, such as suffering a direct shot to the head, he would permanently die and regeneration would not be possible.
- It is possible Time Lords can survive shots to the head and start regeneration within microseconds.
- The ruse was so that Martha was caught at the right place at the right time.
- The Master didn't have to believe it was a credible threat, he just had to believe that Martha might think it was a credible threat.
- How come the Doctor mentions how him and The Master grew up as children on Gallifrey together? In the Doctor Who Special 'The Five Doctors', the First Doctor fails to recognize The Master when they meet, so this means they could not have grown up together?
- First thing, this isn't new information, for crying out loud, that is what the Doctor has been saying since, we first saw the Master, back in the Third Doctor's time. Second, the only reason that he didn't recognize him is because at that point the Master was inhabiting a stolen body.
- Plus there is ample evidence in both the Classic and Modern eras to suggest the whole "Time Lords recognize each other" notion is a lie or exaggeration, as the Doctor going back to his first incarnation has failed to recognize other Time Lords.
- First thing, this isn't new information, for crying out loud, that is what the Doctor has been saying since, we first saw the Master, back in the Third Doctor's time. Second, the only reason that he didn't recognize him is because at that point the Master was inhabiting a stolen body.
- How exactly did the Time Lords resurrect the Master when he was sucked into the Eye of Harmony in the 1996 TV Movie?
- That isn't a plot hole. It's just something we don't know. And since the Eye of Harmony links back to Gallifrey, it would probably be quite easy.
- If you've read The Gallifrey Chronicles, you should understand why it shouldn't be too hard to resurrect him on Gallifrey through the link; if you haven't, it's too hard to explain.
- That isn't a plot hole. It's just something we don't know. And since the Eye of Harmony links back to Gallifrey, it would probably be quite easy.
- Alternatively, in The End of Time, the Cult of Saxon were able to resurrect him with just the DNA from Lucy's lips and the technology available to determined human beings, so it probably isn't as hard as you think. Consider that they had his Matrix records, whatever was left behind in the Tremas (or post-Tremas NA) body after he transferred his essence via deathworm, and whatever echoes were available in the link. And they had biological super-geniuses like the Rani and even Rassilon to work on it.
- Why did Jack bother telling the Doctor and Martha that he used to be called the Face of Boe?
- The best guess is that he'd heard them discussing the Face of Boe. The reason he waited until he was leaving to tell them could be because he didn't want them grilling him on it until he had a chance to work things out for himself, but it also could be because he thought it was a meaningless coincidence and was just being funny.
- No need to guess, it's pretty obvious from dialog. He was concerned about his eventual appearance, jokingly calling it vanity. That leas him to reflect on having been a "poster boy" when joined the Time Agency. That's when he was called the Face of Boe, so it's an obvious thing to throw in at that point.
- How did the Doctor restore his youth. Psychic energy cannot reverse or accelerate ageing as far as I know either within reality or fiction. Additionally how was the Doctor wearing his usual clothes when he was restored. when he was aged his clothes were too big for him. wouldn't the tiny suit be tight on him or alternatively wouldn't he be naked.
- If some form of energy can age him, surely the psychic energy could reverse that.
- The Master blocked the Doctor's regeneration abilities and augmented his apparent age with the technology in his Laser Screwdriver, but Time Lords have the ability to manipulate the energy and radiation in their body (evident from The Parting of the Ways, Smith & Jones, and more), so once the Doctor was empowered with all of that psychic energy, he could take control of his body again and reverse the effects of the Master's device.
- This is more of a question/query than an error. I have The Last of the Time Lords on DVD and now downloaded from iTunes. The iTunes version has 5 minutes cut out. The missing piece is when Martha's mother takes the gun has been cut from it iTunes version. Anyone know why they would do that?
- The original episode ran to almost 52 minutes. Either iTunes cut it down to fit a specific slot, or they took a version already cut down (perhaps for broadcast where the slot it less flexible).
- Why did the Doctor mention Axon? In "The Claws of Axos", the Doctor tried to trap the Master in a timeloop with them. For the Master, It is not a pleasant memory at all.
- So? He's commenting on the Doctor's former grandeur, now being reduced to such a debilitated state. That leads him to recount various grand things he has seen the Doctor do, and that was one that came to mind.
- It was the Doctor who mentioned it. He is trying to remind the Master of their history together, of the experiences only they two have shared. While it may not be the most pleasant memory for the Master, the Doctor is desperately trying to reach out to the only other Time Lord in the universe and convince him to live.
- So? He's commenting on the Doctor's former grandeur, now being reduced to such a debilitated state. That leads him to recount various grand things he has seen the Doctor do, and that was one that came to mind.
- How come when Tom shot the Toclafane another one didn't come? Shooting a gun is the way they got the first one there in the first place so why didn't another come and shoot him?
- It's possible there was only one Toclafane in the area at the time.
- I can buy Davros' reality bomb not happening because it was a little latter in 2009 or the Master repelled a minor Dalek invasion (in which case you'd imagine he'd mention it to the Doctor), but I don't see any reason why the Master didn't have had to deal with the covert Sontaran invasion during the year that never was (aside from obviously not being conceived yet)0. Judging by the scale of it then it must have been in effect since before Last of the Time Lords and given they once INVADED GALLIFREY I doubt a lone Time Lord would have deterred them. In fact they probably would have relished fighting an active Time Lord. I'd like to imagine the Master did fight and defeat them but I have a hard time imagine he could have without The Doctor and Martha noticing.
- Series 3 was set in 2007, stated in Human Nature by John Smith, and also Torchwood Series 1 is set in 2006/7. Seen as When Jack appears in Utopia, it is the end of Torchwood Series 1, that makes it 2007. And Martha states in The Sound of Drums it was only "4 days after they met". This means that 'the year that never was' took Earth into 2008, meaning (at most) the ATMOS incident would have started then maybe stopped by the Toclafane.
- But when Jack returns in Season 2 of Torchwood he's been gone for months meaning he either took his sweet time returning to them (at odds with what he says in Last of The Time Lords and the fact that the Doctor seems to drop him off right outside the Torchwood HUB) or the time when the Doctor picked him up was not "4 days after" he met Martha. Additionally, as far as I remember, nothing in Human Nature specifically identifies Martha being from 2007, only that it was the time they were at before the episode started (specifically attending the Eurovision meaning it could have been a regular old time travel visit for Martha). Also, the Battle of Canary Wharf happens during 2007 (since it has to happen after The Christmas Invasion, which in turn has to happen after World War III which we know is one year after the Doctor meets Rose) and that is a recent event in Torchwood series 1, given we have a Christmas episode that means Torchwood Season 1 has to happen over 2007/8
- The Sontarans might have considered that "Sol 3 is closed for business" and if they were spying Earth , they would have noticed that a strange race called "Toclafane" already invaded it... They simply didn't know who were they dealing it, I call it a strategy, not a continuity error.
- But when Jack returns in Season 2 of Torchwood he's been gone for months meaning he either took his sweet time returning to them (at odds with what he says in Last of The Time Lords and the fact that the Doctor seems to drop him off right outside the Torchwood HUB) or the time when the Doctor picked him up was not "4 days after" he met Martha. Additionally, as far as I remember, nothing in Human Nature specifically identifies Martha being from 2007, only that it was the time they were at before the episode started (specifically attending the Eurovision meaning it could have been a regular old time travel visit for Martha). Also, the Battle of Canary Wharf happens during 2007 (since it has to happen after The Christmas Invasion, which in turn has to happen after World War III which we know is one year after the Doctor meets Rose) and that is a recent event in Torchwood series 1, given we have a Christmas episode that means Torchwood Season 1 has to happen over 2007/8
- How COULD the Sontarans still invade? There was an army of killer robots from the sky swarming the entire planet, nuclear missiles galore, and a crazy and dangerous Time Lord in control of it all. I think at that point they would just scrap their plans. Even if they wouldn't, they would at least have to radically rethink their plans. Are cars even used much in this essentially apocalyptic world anymore for the ATMOS thing to work? Even if they still wanted to go at it, doing so would require a lot of time to make a new strategy, considering all of the drastic changes to Earth in the time of the Master's rule. So I don't think this is a problem that the Master or anyone would face during the Year that Never Was.
- Series 3 was set in 2007, stated in Human Nature by John Smith, and also Torchwood Series 1 is set in 2006/7. Seen as When Jack appears in Utopia, it is the end of Torchwood Series 1, that makes it 2007. And Martha states in The Sound of Drums it was only "4 days after they met". This means that 'the year that never was' took Earth into 2008, meaning (at most) the ATMOS incident would have started then maybe stopped by the Toclafane.