Howling:When the Doctor died in Turn Left...: Difference between revisions

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-{{forumheader|The Howling}}{{cat|contains spoilers}}
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 Did he really die too quickly to regenerate? Or did he simply refuse to regenerate?
-As we all know, "Turn Left" focused on an alternate history where the Doctor in his [[tenth incarnation]]  died under the Thames during the events of "The Runaway Bride". So, I was watching the episode again and when the Doctor's body is put into the ambulance, the UNIT soldier suggests that the Doctor did not regenerate into his [[Eleventh Doctor|eleventh incarnation]] because his death "happened too fast" but there has been another theory: that the Doctor chose not to regenerate.
+As we all know, "Turn Left" focused on an alternate history where the Doctor died under the Thames during the events of "The Runaway Bride". So, I was watching the episode again and when the Doctor's body is put into the ambulance, the UNIT soldier suggests that the Doctor did not regenerate because his death "happened too fast" but there has been another theory: that the Doctor chose not to regenerate.
-According to this theory, [[http://doctorwho.livejournal.com/3275701.html the Doctor let himself drown because of his depression over losing Rose]]. This idea has been portrayed in several fanfics on "Turn Left" such as these: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4543093/1/Drowning-Pains and http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9159383/1/Self-Destruction  Some would say that the Doctor would NOT just let himself die because he lost her. They argue that he lost several friends and STILL continued on, they also argue that he said goodbye to several companions when they left him and he STILL helped the Earth.
+According to this theory, [[http://doctorwho.livejournal.com/3275701.html the Doctor let himself drown because of his depression over losing Rose]]. This idea has been portrayed in several fanfics on "Turn Left" such as these: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4543093/1/Drowning-Pains and http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9159383/1/Self-Destruction and this: http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=22980
+Some would say that the Doctor would NOT just let himself die because he lost her. They argue that he lost several friends and STILL continued on, they also argue that he said goodbye to several companions when they left him and he STILL helped the Earth.
 But there are several reasons to believe in the theory that the Doctor chose not to regenerate as opposed to the "it happened too fast" claim.
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 . In "Last of the Time Lords", it is implied that regeneration is an option which can be chosen: despite the Doctor's pleas, the Master refused to regenerate after being shot by Lucy Saxon.
-. You gotta admit, the Doctor did seem almost suicidal after losing Rose since he did demand the Daleks to kill him in "Evolution of the Daleks" and he did threaten to blow himself up with the Sontarans in "The Poison Sky"(even if he was faking both).
+. You gotta admit, the Doctor did seem almost suicidal after losing Rose since he did demand the Daleks to kill him in "Evolution of the Daleks"(even if he was faking it).
 . In the "Runaway Bride", when the Doctor watched as the Racnoss drowned, his eyes were full of darkness and pain.
+. The Doctor even said this: “D'you think I don't want to go jumping into the Thames after Rose?” (The Doctor, “The Feast of the Drowned”).
+. How is it that the underground chamber was flooded too fast for the Doctor to regenerate? In the episode itself, it looked like the Doctor and Donna had plenty of time to escape, so even if she wasn't there to snap him out of his fugue, surely he still would have noticed the water lapping at his ankles? (I must admit, I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Donna saying "Doctor, you can stop now!" was that crucial of a moment... I think they're having to stretch a bit to find a key moment in that scene!) Besides, drowning is a slow death, surely! (As some pointed out, surely falling off a radio telescope is a faster death, but the Doctor had time to regenerate after that one.)
 I know this almost certainly didn't happen in the episode but I love the theory that the Doctor chose not to regenerate and that he thought of Rose as he died.
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 I agree. The UNIT officer thought he drowned too fast to regenerate, but that isn't true. In The Runaway Bride, Donna tells him to stop - without her, he doesn't, and he lets himself die. Why? Because he's just gone through a horrific ordeal with losing Rose to the sealed off parallel world, and had no desire to live. This was displayed repeatedly in series 3. For example: in the Daleks in Manhattan episode, he basically screams at a Dalek to kill him because "it's his turn." This episode added an entirely new depth to that Christmas special and the Doctor's character and state of mind at that point in the show. {{Unsigned-anon|92.15.141.139}}
+Actually, 92, it did happen.  Since we did not see him die on screen, we need to by what was said afterwards.  It was said he died to fast to regenerate and that is what happened.  Anything else is nothing more than pure speculation. [[User:Whosethebestwho|Whosethebestwho]] [[User talk:Whosethebestwho|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:53, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
+:But "pure speculation" is the whole point of this discussion topic, isn't it? —[[User:BioniclesaurKing4t2|BioniclesaurKing4t2]] - [[User talk:BioniclesaurKing4t2|"Hello, I'm the Doctor.]] [[Special:Contributions/BioniclesaurKing4t2|Basically, . . . ''run''."]] 03:06, July 13, 2013 (UTC)
+Who deleted my commments???  [[User:Whosethebestwho|Whosethebestwho]] [[User talk:Whosethebestwho|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:57, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
+'''I've restored the comments that were deleted.'''
+@92, if you removed the comments from [[User:Whosethebestwho]] and [[User:BioniclesaurKing4t2]] by accident, please be careful in the future. If you removed them intentionally, then be warned that is considered [[Tardis:Vandalism policy|vandalism]] and is a '''blockable offense'''. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:37, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 By the way, it's a good thing that was just an alternative version of the Doctor. Though I've always wondered -- how did he even know about the Racnoss without Donna appearing in his TARDIS? (Since in that timeline, he never met her) Was there another bride used in the Racnoss' plot? Did she (unlike Donna) also drown with the Doctor? Except her body was never found, because it may have been swept away by the current, down into the hole? – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 92.15.141.139 (talk).
 I suppose there must have been. If Donna didn't land the job at H.C. Clements, it would have just gone to someone else and Lance would have still faked love. The swine. [[User:Gallifrey102|Gallifrey102]] [[User talk:Gallifrey102|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]]
-Actually, there more to suggest that the Doctor let it happen:
-“D'you think I don't want to go jumping into the Thames after Rose?” (The Doctor, “The Feast of the Drowned”). {{Unsigned-anon|92.15.155.147}}
 , if you want to keep editing here, you '''must sign your posts''' and '''stop re-editing old posts after they've been answered'''. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:42, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
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 : And that would be a non-sequitar. You can't ague the mindset of the Tenth at a particular position by referencing the mindset of the elventh at a different position several hundred years later. A lot has happened since then.
 : Do I think the tenth was suicidal? I have only just started watching the episode for the first time since they were originally transmitted so can't comment bsolutely but at the moment I think we need stronger evidence generally to claim that sort of thing really. It's pretty massive.
-: However the tenth Doctor from the moment we met him, questioning his identity to the moment he regenerated with, as you mention, "I don't want to go." he seemed more unique than any other incarnation so far. He seems to see himself, Doctor 10, as an individual, independent from either the incarnations that preceded him or those that will follow him. He sees his regeneration as actually death to him else why else make the comment. But even so why would he need to share that thought with the audience? It seems pretty obvious if 10 sees himself that way, it echoes the words of Cassandra in New Earth, of course, but it may also be intentionally given as the answer to a question that his internal dialogue has been debating for sometime. So the preposition that the tenth had a suicidal aspect in his character, while likely is not, however, completely unfounded.[[User:DCT|DCT]] [[User talk:DCT|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:06, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
+: However the tenth Doctor from the moment we met him, questioning his identity to the moment he regenerated with,- as you mention, "I don't want to go." he seemed more unique than any other incarnation so far. He seems to see himself, Doctor 10, as an individual, independent from either the incarnations that preceded him or those that will follow him. He sees his regeneration as actually death to him else why else make the comment. But even so why would he need to share that thought with the audience? It seems pretty obvious if 10 sees himself that way, it echoes the words of Cassandra in New Earth, of course, but it may also be intentionally given as the answer to a question that his internal dialogue has been debating for sometime. So the preposition that the tenth had a suicidal aspect in his character, while likely is not, however, completely unfounded.[[User:DCT|DCT]] [[User talk:DCT|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:06, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
+I agree with the ones above. The UNIT officer thought he drowned too fast to regenerate, but that isn't true. In The Runaway Bride, Donna tells him to stop - without her, he doesn't, and he lets himself die. Why? Because he's just gone through a horrific ordeal with losing Rose to the sealed off parallel world, and had no desire to live. This was displayed repeatedly in series 3. For example: in the Daleks in Manhattan episode, he basically screams at a Dalek to kill him because "it's his turn." This episode added an entirely new depth to that Christmas special and the Doctor's character and state of mind at that point in the show.
+This is really sad, the thought that he just let it happen: http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=23118{{Unsigned-anon|92.15.135.37}}
+:Please sign your posts with four tildes as directed above. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:34, January 28, 2014 (UTC)
+I don't think the Doctor wanted to die. I just think he didn't ''not'' want to die, if you know what I mean.  I don't think his sadness was caused solely by the loss of Rose, but also a lot by what her loss represented to him.  The loss of a companion alone wouldn't be something he would actively kill himself over, as can be seen by the fact he's still alive following the deaths of both Adric and (the supposed death of) Peri, along with others who don't immediately spring to mind.  Before meeting Rose, the Doctor was in a state of grief, guilt and self-loathing following the end of the time war, and it was Rose who helped him move on from that.  Losing Rose could have easily thrown him back into the stream of those emotions, as if losing his grip on the rock anchoring him in the turbulent river of his guilt and grief.  Also, Rose was the first companion the Doctor allowed himself to romantically love, probably the first person since his wife back on Gallifrey; Susan's grandmother.  I can't help but think that because of the lack of any other family member of the Doctor being shown apart from Susan that something terrible must have happened to the rest of the Doctor's family (maybe one of the factors leading to him running away?).  Is it not plausible that Rose's loss would dredge back up the memories of losing his wife and the rest of his family?  The combined grief from losing Rose, the memories of what he had (supposedly) done in the time war, and the memories of what had happened to his family might have just been too much when added together.  And while I don't think the Doctor actively tried to kill himself, I don't think he would have put much effort into escaping his demise either because of this combined grief and guilt over his continued existence after the death of so many, accepting the inevitable and choosing not to regenerate when the time came because drowning once would surely be a lot less painful than drowning, regenerating, drowning in the new body, regenerating again, and drowning one final time before his regeneration cycle was complete, which, when you think about it, is what would have happened if the Doctor got trapped underwater. {{user:Imamadmad/sig}} 10:36, February 23, 2014 (UTC)
+I really like this theory. It's something I've never thought about before but it makes perfect sense. [[Special:Contributions/87.102.91.126|87.102.91.126]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.91.126#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:58, February 24, 2014 (UTC)
+This actually makes a lot of sense!
+[[User:Wario64|Wario64]] [[User talk:Wario64|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:33, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
+Agreed. It does.
+Imamadmad: On top of the factors you've cited, the Doctor's knowledge that he'd not just killed a large number of individuals but had wiped out an entire species -- again -- wouldn't have improved his state of mind. The Racnoss were, after all, intelligent & technologically fairly advanced, although also extremely dangerous.
+Whosethebestwho: "It was stated on screen that the Doctor drowned too quickly to regenerate...so that's what happened." It was stated ''as an assumption made by a UNIT soldier who didn't himself witness it''. What he said was, "The Doctor is dead. Must have happened too fast for him to regenerate." That "Must have" makes it clear that it's the character's opinion, not a known fact. It could be a mistaken opinion. --[[Special:Contributions/89.243.201.190|89.243.201.190]]<sup>[[User talk:89.243.201.190#top|talk to me]]</sup> 20:37, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
+I think that this debate is useless. It was a long time ago and while I think this would have been a brilliant addition of the episode, it was never thought up and the script does seem to contradict it. Of course, it ''is'' possible that UNIT simply ''assumed'' that was the cause of death, and he secretly let it happen.
+Imamadman said, "Rose was the first companion the Doctor allowed himself to romantically love, probably the first person since his wife back on Gallifrey; Susan's grandmother."  I just wanted to point out that the Doctor seemed to genuinely care for [[Scarlette]].--[[User:JohnSmith5000100|FredBloggs5100 aka your master]] [[User talk:JohnSmith5000100|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:09, January 9, 2016 (UTC)
+I agree.
+I personally think it is really left up to the audience imaginations (as some have pointed out, the UNIT Solider was just speculating).