Howling:Problems with the Miracle: Difference between revisions

← Older edit

Howling:Problems with the Miracle (view source)

Revision as of 21:43, 19 October 2019

24,355 bytes added , 19 October 2019

no edit summary

Amorkuz

25,433

edits

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{Forumheader|The Howling}}
+{{archive|The Howling archives}}
 <!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ -->
@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 Jack has "technically" died many, many times -- and usually it was only for a short while. His death in The Blood Line wasn't much different, in that respect. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.72.64|89.241.72.64]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.72.64#top|talk to me]]</sup> 23:18, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
-But if Jack's death on Miracle Day had created a whole universe like in TWORS, it would have happened in that short moment, regardless of the fact that the Miracle was about to be negated. It didn't, so the Miracle didn't really endanger a fixed point. The only way you could use Jack to create a crazy universe like in TWORS is perhaps if you killed him before the Daleks did. Maybe the Trickster has considered doing this, but is merely looking for the right time to do so. [[Special:Contributions/94.72.209.160|94.72.209.160]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.209.160#top|talk to me]]</sup> 23:30, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
+But if Jack's death on Miracle Day had created a whole universe like in TWORS, which you suggested earlier, it would have happened in that short moment, regardless of the fact that the Miracle was about to be negated. It didn't, so the Miracle didn't really endanger a fixed point. The only way you could use Jack to create a crazy universe like in TWORS is perhaps if you killed him before the Daleks did. Maybe the Trickster has considered doing this, but is merely looking for the right time to do so. [[Special:Contributions/94.72.209.160|94.72.209.160]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.209.160#top|talk to me]]</sup> 23:30, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
 I doubt that the Trickster is involved. Jack stopped their plans, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that they are angry about it, or even that they care. They must have thousands of plans to create chaos every day, and they can't possibly all work. What we've usually seen them do is change people's decisions to change history, and nothing about the Miracle seems to be that. I think the best assumption here would be that the morpic field somehow cancelled out Jack's fix-pointedness. While he was within the morphic field, he was no longer an immortal fixed point. Whether his dead body could be taken out of the morphic field to ressurect, however, is another matter, but Jack did honestly seem to believe that he could die for good throughout the season.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 08:41, December 31, 2011 (UTC)
@@ Line 72: / Line 72: @@
 I think I'll just wait for the DVD, since there's only a month or something before it comes out. I think I had enough of low quality online versions of episodes back when there was no sign that the TV Movie would ever be released on region 1. Anyway, I doubt that the Trickster's Brigade was involved. They were going for an entirely different plan in the 20s, and Jack stopped them. Really, the Brigade was just a plot point to bring Jack to New York so that he could meet Angelo and the families. I think the Family-woman said that the e-mail was to lure Jack out of hiding so that the families could kill Jack to get rid of the last mortal blood. Ironically, of course, Jack wouldn't even have returned to Earth, known about the Miracle, or tried to stop them if they hadn't sent the e-mail, but they must have assumed that he was on the planet somewhere.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 23:07, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
-Isn't the TV movie on Dailymotion? Anyway, back on the subject, one thing that confused me in "Escape to L.A. was Ellis Hartley Monroe's eyeball. Surely it would have popped out with the pressure. Unless it was left in a perfect eyeball shaped space, I don't see how she could move it. [[Special:Contributions/87.102.117.106|87.102.117.106]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.117.106#top|talk to me]]</sup> 17:01, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
+Anyway, back on the subject, one thing that confused me in "Escape to L.A." was Ellis Hartley Monroe's eyeball. Surely it would have popped out with the pressure. Unless it was left in a perfect eyeball shaped space, I don't see how she could move it. [[Special:Contributions/87.102.117.106|87.102.117.106]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.117.106#top|talk to me]]</sup> 17:01, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
-only use dailymotion for the classic series. there are much better websites for the rest. also, about the eyeball, maybe it wasn't squished. with the car surrounding her when she was crushed, there would have been pockets of space where the metal wasn't and maybe her eye just so happened to be in one of those spaces. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 04:54, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
+also, about the eyeball, maybe it wasn't squished. with the car surrounding her when she was crushed, there would have been pockets of space where the metal wasn't and maybe her eye just so happened to be in one of those spaces. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 04:54, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
 Let's cause a Miracle, squish someone in a car and find out what happens. [[Special:Contributions/87.102.117.106|87.102.117.106]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.117.106#top|talk to me]]</sup> 12:55, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
@@ Line 80: / Line 80: @@
 That's what's known as "the scientific method" -- as practised by the Rani! --[[Special:Contributions/89.242.74.218|89.242.74.218]]<sup>[[User talk:89.242.74.218#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:28, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
 Icecreamdif: how do you know for certain the Trickster was just a plot point?
 Anyway, on problem number 3, we need to bear in mind that we don't know that much about the Blessing. It might be a little bit more than just "the Earth's vagina". In fact, there's nothing to disprove that the Blessing was created by another "Bad Wolf", meaning it would be of equal power to the time vortex, where Jack gets his immortality from. Both the Blessing and Jack could possibly be of equal power. [[Special:Contributions/87.102.117.106|87.102.117.106]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.117.106#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:15, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
@@ Line 87: / Line 87: @@
 I was only quoting what the person who created the discussion said, and even then I think it was humourosly intended to put that in the description in the first place. [[Special:Contributions/87.102.117.106|87.102.117.106]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.117.106#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:30, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
+We don't really know enough about the Blessing. It could be the work of another Bad Wolf, or just a powerful alien life form. There was even a discussion that Jack was the Blessing. All these problems don't really matter because the Blessing might just be something that can only be summed up by technobabble. [[Special:Contributions/77.86.9.25|77.86.9.25]]<sup>[[User talk:77.86.9.25#top|talk to me]]</sup> 17:12, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
+Well the theory that Jack was the blessing was based solely on the fact that his blood was attracted to it. Now that the finale has come out, we have a different explanation (sort of) for why Jack's blood was attracted to it. We still don't know what the Blessing is, but that theory doesn't really fit any more.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 15:15, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
+My guess is that it had something to do with the Racnoss. They are a race created by RTD and are easy to introduce to a new audience, so could potentially appear in a future episode if they decide to explore the Blessing in more detail. However at the same time I think they should start from scratch with Series 5 and not bother exploring the Blessing or the Families any more, it would be better to have something new, and leave the whole immortal Rex storyline to be explained through speculation. [[Special:Contributions/94.72.237.220|94.72.237.220]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.237.220#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:49, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
+Well if there is another season of Torchwood, then the families and Jilly will probably be back based on the ending to ''Miracle Day''. They will also inevitably have to explore Rex's immortality, since he is now one of the main characters. The Blessing was buried though, and the families Plan B probably doesn't involve it.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 19:21, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
+I'd rather they left the Families to one side and started with something new. The best thing about MD was it's sense of mystery. As it was broadcast, each week I kept coming up with new theories on who was behind the Miracle. A little disappoited with the big reveal, but I still enjoyed the speculation, so much so that I didn't even know Doctor Who Series 6 was on and actually missed Let's Kill Hitler. Having another Series with the Families would be a HUGE step back, and after looking at some of the critical reception for MD, it's a HUGE step back that RTD can't afford to take. [[Special:Contributions/94.72.237.220|94.72.237.220]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.237.220#top|talk to me]]</sup> 17:49, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
+Personally, I would be happy whether they brought the families back or went with a new enemy, as long as we get more Torchwood. However, based on the ending of ''Miracle Day'', the plan seems to be to bring back the families and Jilly. [[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 18:18, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
+I heard somewhere that RTD has plans for one more series of Torchwood, one that is mainly about Gwen. There's not much that tells us but if the Families do appear in that series it will most likely be a seperate storyline, possibly with Rex and the CIA trying to track them down. [[Special:Contributions/94.72.237.220|94.72.237.220]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.237.220#top|talk to me]]</sup> 21:58, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
+I heard the same, in an interview with RTD (seen online somewhere), and "one more story mainly about Gwen" really doesn't tell us much. What's more, that was all he said. However, all it means is that, '''at the time of the interview''', he had only that one story left to tell. He's a writer. Writers come up with ideas. Something may yet give him another story idea -- or another dozen. I know he's taking time out to look after his partner, so further stories (even the one about Gwen) aren't likely right now. Even if he's not consciously thinking about stories, which he probably isn't, that won't stop his subconscious working. Once circumstances change, new ideas may come to the surface. Notwithstanding what 94 said, another story with the Families wouldn't necessarily be "a huge step back". As always, it depends how it's done. Learning more about the Families would retrospectively affect our understanding of their role in ''Miracle Day'', which could be a step back but could also be a step forward -- as I say, it depends how it's done. --[[Special:Contributions/78.146.190.234|78.146.190.234]]<sup>[[User talk:78.146.190.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 22:45, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
+Keeping up with this format, Torchwood is destined to be doomed. Children of Earth was certainly very refreshing, but you can only do these storylines a certain number of times before people go "not again, world-wide crisis, why not just bloody end humanity instead of suffering endless catastrophes". You can't have every single episode about world wide crises, the wow factor wears off pretty soon. I think the 10 episode format is really too much, it feels like the storyline is dragging on and on and certain episodes have no focus. The resolution and problem cannot always be about Jack; one thing that amazes me is that are the people just brainless, Children of Earth and Miracle Day are both directly/indirectly caused by Jack, any sane individual would quickly seal him in the most secured place and prevents him from interacting with anything, he is, afterall, the guy who caused two extreme catastrophes to mankind. --～～～～
+maybe that could be the next big plot point, world organisations trying to track down and kill jack to prevent something like this from happening again, but in the process starting a crisis which isn't as obvious to most people on the planet, something more subtle that those who aren't looking for it won't be able to find, but is still extremely threatening to mankind.
+hey, i got an idea, why don't they do a season that's semi episodic but also partly one story, like the heavily arc based series of doctor who we just had. so there are different stories for each episode like in the first two series, but they are all towards a main goal more like CoE and MD. i don't know how it would be done, but it's just an idea. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 23:54, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
+Illegible signature: Jack didn't "cause" either of those disasters, directly or indirectly. He happened to be involved when the British Government of the day did a shameful deal that led to the return of the 456 in ''Children of Earth''. The 456 did the causing and the British Government made matters worse by trying a cover-up. He was used by the Families to cause the Miracle. It was the Families who did the causing. The supposedly "sane" individual who tried to isolate Jack would simply set things up for further disasters as the Families or people of similar inclinations tried to get hold of him to further their next scheme. Scapegoating Jack, which is what isolating him amounts to, would be a very human reaction and a deeply unintelligent one. It might even work, if Jack could reliably and irrevocably be killed. He can't be, so it wouldn't work. Nonetheless, there might indeed be a ''Torchwood ''story in the idea: the story of frightened idiots trying what illegible signature suggests and the disasters that follow from the attempt. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.73.121|89.241.73.121]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.73.121#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:36, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
+That's a pretty original idea. Maybe they can try to contain Jack, in some kind of box. Maybe then bury it under stonehenge or something. Where have I heard that before. ''Children of Earth'' and ''Miracle Day'' were easily the best seasons of Torchwood, so it would only make sense for them to follow that pattern. Continuing the Families' involvement, and making the whole thing a multi-season arc with a sense of continuity, is really the best way to avoid the problems of there being so many world crises. Anyway, I don't know how bad the situation with RTD's partner is, but if he had to give up all of his current American shows and move back to Wales, I'm guessing that it will be some time before he is able to work on another season of Torchwood.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 09:23, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
+I created a discussion about this on Doctor Who Answers if anyone is interested: http://drwho.answers.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Good_concepts_for_Torchwood_series_5
+[[Special:Contributions/94.72.237.220|94.72.237.220]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.237.220#top|talk to me]]</sup> 09:51, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
+There's a review of ''Miracle Day'' on the doctorwhotv site that's worth reading. Of particular relevance to this discussion is the paragraph headed: '''What didn’t work: the cause of the “miracle”'''. The review is at: http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/2011-in-review-torchwood-29280.htm. --[[Special:Contributions/89.240.249.16|89.240.249.16]]<sup>[[User talk:89.240.249.16#top|talk to me]]</sup> 02:12, January 27, 2012 (UTC)
+I disagree with most of what that review said "didn't work," but for now I'll focus on "the cause of the miracle" as you suggested. That section of the review didn't really add anything that hasn't been stated on here already. ''Miracle Day'' never suggested that Jack's immortality was genetic, they stated on multiple occasions that it wasn't genetic, and without knowing more about how the blessing's morphic fields and Jack's fix-pointedness work, there is no reason to believe that it should have been genetic for the miracle to work. The rest of that paragraph is just complaints about how the story unfolded to reveal where the miracle came from, which is not what we're discussing here. Personally, I liked that we didn't find out about the Families or the Blessing until towards the end of the season, but even if you believe that that was bad storytelling, it doesn't make the Miracle make any less sense.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 05:47, January 27, 2012 (UTC)
+I disagreed with a fair amount of the review, too, and especially about Mekhi Phifer as Rex. As fault-finding, the "What didn’t work: lazy scriptwriting shortcuts – including the complete disregard of science" section had some very strong points (abysmal ignorance of the laws of motion, for example) and some very weak ones (such as implying Rhys wouldn't be inclined to kill Danes). Nonetheless, the review does give someone else's take on the subject and will be of interest to at least some of the people who've contributed here. Maybe you're right, though, that this discussion has faded out because nobody's got anything new to say about it. --[[Special:Contributions/89.242.68.111|89.242.68.111]]<sup>[[User talk:89.242.68.111#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:33, January 27, 2012 (UTC)
+I never said that I didn't think that the review was interesting, and I did enjoy reading it. I was merely saying that there were only about two sentences of the review that are relevant to this particular discussion, and the points made in those sentences have already been discussed. [[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 15:56, January 27, 2012 (UTC)
+I've been thinking - during the Miracle somebody referred to a Greek myth about a woman who had immortality but still aged. Is it possible that the Blessing has performed "miracles" before and that was the inspiration for the myth? [[Special:Contributions/94.72.237.220|94.72.237.220]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.237.220#top|talk to me]]</sup> 23:13, January 27, 2012 (UTC)
+It's possible. It's also possible that some other alien tech was used to extend her life, or she actually was an alien, or that she was a fixed point in space and time. The brief summarization they gave of the story is actually vaguely reminiscent to how Jack ends up becoming a giant disembodied face. The most likely explanation is, of course, that it is just a myth, but anything's possible.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 01:14, January 28, 2012 (UTC)
+It wasn't a woman. It was a Trojan man named Tithonos (or Tithonus). The female involved was Eos, goddess of the dawn (actually a Titan but near enough the same as a goddess). Eos got Zeus to give Tithonos immortality but forgot to ask for eternal youth. Russell T. Davies took the "myth inspired by aliens" line in ''Eye of the Gorgon ''(SJA Series 1) and ''The Day of the Clown ''(SJA Series 2), so it's not impossible he had the same kind of thing in mind, here. Unless he were to develop it further, we'd not know -- and it wouldn't really matter, anyway. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.67.63|89.241.67.63]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.67.63#top|talk to me]]</sup> 02:14, January 28, 2012 (UTC)
+P.S. The Doctor was involved with the Greeks and Trojans in about the 12th century BC (''The Myth Makers'', 1965) and even left a companion with them -- Vicki, born in the 25th century AD. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.67.63|89.241.67.63]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.67.63#top|talk to me]]</sup> 02:25, January 28, 2012 (UTC)
+There have been plenty of episodes of Doctor Who where it turns out that a real world myth was inspired by the Doctor or other aliens. I think there have been about 2 Loch Ness Monsters, 3 destructions of Atlantis, and 3 devils. It certainly is not outside the realm of possibility that that particular myth was inspired by aliens. However, not all myths are inspired by aliens, and in all likelihood there will be no further episodes elaborating on that myth. It was just a reference to a real world myth involving immortality in an episode involving immortality.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 04:19, January 28, 2012 (UTC)
+RTD has done that kind of thing, too -- for example, the reference to Philoctetes in ''Greeks Bearing Gifts ''(TW Series 1). As I said, even if he had in mind the idea that the myth was inspired by aliens (or an early instance of the Miracle), it's not going to make any difference unless he decides to take it further later on, which he probably won't. ''Doctor Who ''(long before RTD) has also used the "myth as garbled version" idea. In ''The Myth Makers'', Vicki stayed behind in 12th century BC Asia Minor under the name Cressida and she stayed because she'd hooked up with a Trojan prince by the name of Troilus -- but what happened between them in the story was nothing remotely like the later legend of Troilus and Cressida. --[[Special:Contributions/2.96.27.207|2.96.27.207]]<sup>[[User talk:2.96.27.207#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:51, January 28, 2012 (UTC)
+We need to bear in mind that myths can change over time and become too exaggerated or far-fetched. For instance it was said by the Greeks that the Gorgons could "instantly turn people who looked at them into stone" but in the Sarah Jane Adventures it actualyy took a few seconds, and even gave Luke Smith a chance to escape. The immortality myth could have come from absolutely anywhere. Maybe Jack was in Ancient Greece at one point? [[Special:Contributions/94.72.237.220|94.72.237.220]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.237.220#top|talk to me]]</sup> 11:04, January 28, 2012 (UTC)
+I certainly wouldn't put it past Jack to have been there but, as you say, the immortality myth could easily have arisen without him. --[[Special:Contributions/78.146.187.216|78.146.187.216]]<sup>[[User talk:78.146.187.216#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:57, January 28, 2012 (UTC)
+If Jack had ever been in ancient Greece, it probably would have been back in his time agent days, before he was immortal.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 22:04, January 28, 2012 (UTC)
+Well, I believe Jack once mentioned being at the extinction of the dinosaurs, so unless he found a way to survive the blast from the space ship (see [[Earthshock]]) he was most likely immortal. Maybe he had a few untelevised trips in the TARDIS. [[Special:Contributions/94.72.237.220|94.72.237.220]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.237.220#top|talk to me]]</sup> 22:34, January 28, 2012 (UTC)
+Plenty of stuff survived the blast, or there wouldn't be any life left on Earth today. Besides, didn't Jack use the word "we" when describing his time with the dinosaurs, which suggests that he was either with other time agents or con men, or John. Maybe he had his chula ship or another space/time ship with him. It could have crash landed on Earth shortly before the "asteroid" hit.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 01:39, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
+The blast itself wasn't what did for the dinosaurs (and lots of other things). If Jack and anyone with him had been clear of the immediately lethal blast zone, they'd have survived it. The planet-wide extinctions resulted from the after-effects of the blast -- reduced sunlight leading to plants dying off, leading to vegitarian animals dying from lack of plants to eat, leading to carnivores dying from lack of vegitarian animals to eat. The extinctions were rapid in geological terms but not instantaneous. (In the fossil record, it's a bit difficult to distinguish between events that last for seconds and events that last only for a few centuries.) Time travellers would have had plenty of opportunity to get out alive, even if they were all quite normally mortal. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.65.179|89.241.65.179]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.65.179#top|talk to me]]</sup> 04:40, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
+Jack was in the immediate blast zone, because he mentioned eating the dead dinosaurs. Anyway, that's not important, because the point is that the Greek immortality myth could have come from absolutely anywhere. It's just interesting to speculate if the Blessing has ever performed any small-scale Miracles before. [[Special:Contributions/94.72.237.220|94.72.237.220]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.237.220#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:01, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
+It probably hasn't. The only reason that it performed the miracle in ''Miracle Day'' was because the Families dumped Jack's blood into it. The Blessing didn't seem to like providing the Miracle for humanity, and it's unlikely that anyone dug deep enough to find the thing before the families found it. I also don't know a lot about Greek mythology, but I'm guessing that that myth didn't take place in either Buenos Aires or Shanghai.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 19:33, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
+The Blessing was able to affect people if they were close enough, take Rex and that injured guy in "The Gathering" for example. Anyway, if someone who had been somehow miraclised in Shanghai travelled to Greece, the Greeks might think they are a God because of their undying powers. Throw a thousand years of slight story twisting into the mix and you get a story of a God who gave someone else the ability to avoid death. Even if the Blessing is nothing to do with the myth, I'd be surprised if it hasn't affected humans before. [[Special:Contributions/94.72.237.220|94.72.237.220]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.237.220#top|talk to me]]</sup> 21:05, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
+i think that the whole giving the human race immortality but taking away jacks is kinda impossible but then this is doctor who(or torchwood) and impossible things happen every day....  however i think it was very poorly explained to why jack lost his immortality basically the Miracal changed a fixed point into a wibbly wobbly one which should cause major problems like in the latest doctor who series it just seams to me that the writers of the shows (rtd and sm) are not really working with each other and i doubt they meet up and check if it is okay to do this in one show and if it conflicts with stuff in the other.. so the shows are getting a bit messed up and i just have to say can we really have them in the same story line any more? its like having lord of the rings in the same universe as harry potter (well not that much but hopefully you will get the point)
+----[[User:Whooligist|Whooligist]] <sup>[[User talk:Whooligist|talk to me]]</sup> 22:07, March 8, 2012 (UTC)----
+Whooligist: The business of changing a fixed point in time -- Did it? Jack didn't actually die. If all time "cares about" is what actually happens, the consequences of changing a fixed point would occur if and '''only''' if Jack actually died. --[[Special:Contributions/89.240.242.115|89.240.242.115]]<sup>[[User talk:89.240.242.115#top|talk to me]]</sup> 09:33, March 9, 2012 (UTC)
+That theory is severely flawed, because Jack did die, shortly before the Miracle was negated, so we know it's possible for him to be mortal and dead. Anyway it's not like the Miracle would last forever. Only the morphic field was sustaining the power of the Miracle. When the Earth ended Jack's remains would float from the vicinity of the field and be reimmortalised. Whoologist: The Miracle is not the only way you can keep him dead. If you somehow put Jack in the core of the planet, any attempts at rebuilding the body would be instantly fried to a crisp, and Jack would remain dead for millions and millions of years. As I said, a lot earlier in the discussion, you can not kill Jack for good at all. All you can do is delay his ressurection. [[Special:Contributions/94.72.226.244|94.72.226.244]]<sup>[[User talk:94.72.226.244#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:36, March 9, 2012 (UTC)
+The theory isn't "severely flawed". Jack didn't stay dead. He's died umpteen times and then come back. The point is that it messes up a fixed point if and only if he '''doesn't''' come back. Perhaps I ought to have made the point clearer by saying "died permanently" but the point remains that the Miracle didn't in fact mess up a fixed point, so there's no reason for the consequences of messing up a fixed point to have occurred. --[[Special:Contributions/89.240.242.157|89.240.242.157]]<sup>[[User talk:89.240.242.157#top|talk to me]]</sup> 02:16, March 10, 2012 (UTC)
+Perhaps I ought to make my point clearer: It is completely impossible to kill Jack permanently. Even if you took him to the very beginning of the Universe it would be next to impossible to keep him dead until the end. [[Special:Contributions/77.86.123.149|77.86.123.149]]<sup>[[User talk:77.86.123.149#top|talk to me]]</sup> 10:46, March 10, 2012 (UTC)
+'''You''' are missing '''my''' point, which is pretty much the same as yours. Whooligist referred to changing a fixed point in time but that would only actually be the case if Jack '''did''' somehow stay dead permanently. He didn't, so the fixed point is still as it should be, so we didn't get the consequences of a fixed point being changed. In Jack's case, genuinely changing the fixed point is, as you say, "next to impossible". Accordingly, Whooligist is wrong in what he said. See his contribution of 22:07, March 8, 2012 (UTC), above.
+Please stop arguing with someone who agrees with you. There's plenty of opportunity around here to argue with people who disagree with you. --[[Special:Contributions/78.146.181.30|78.146.181.30]]<sup>[[User talk:78.146.181.30#top|talk to me]]</sup> 11:37, March 10, 2012 (UTC)
+Afterthought: As far as I can see, about the only way to change this particular fixed point in time would be to intercept Jack at a point in his timeline before he went to the Game Station and kill him then, so he couldn't be there to be resurrected by Rose/Bad Wolf. I'm not totally sure even that would work but I can't think of anything else that might. --[[Special:Contributions/78.146.181.30|78.146.181.30]]<sup>[[User talk:78.146.181.30#top|talk to me]]</sup> 11:52, March 10, 2012 (UTC)
+Putting him in a time loop might work. Provided you kill him first. [[Special:Contributions/178.78.67.209|178.78.67.209]]<sup>[[User talk:178.78.67.209#top|talk to me]]</sup> 19:55, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
+Since it was the power of the time vortex itself, exercised by Rose/Bad Wolf, that made him immortal in the first place and keeps bringing him back to life, that would be more likely to break the time loop than to keep him dead. --[[Special:Contributions/89.242.75.19|89.242.75.19]]<sup>[[User talk:89.242.75.19#top|talk to me]]</sup> 21:25, March 12, 2012 (UTC)