Talk:Doctor Who: Lockdown!: Difference between revisions

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:: [Table with all the ''Long Song'' webcasts]
:: [Table with all the ''Long Song'' webcasts]
:: '''<nowiki>====The Lockdown Carol====</nowiki>'''
:: '''<nowiki>====The Lockdown Carol====</nowiki>'''
:: [Brief written overview of the ''Long Song'' cover]
:: [Brief written overview of the ''Carol'' cover]
:: [Table with all the ''Long Song'' webcasts]
:: [Table with all the ''Carol'' webcasts]
: …? This would allow us to keep everything on one page without being needlessly confusing. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:53, November 4, 2020 (UTC)
: …? This would allow us to keep everything on one page without being needlessly confusing. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:53, November 4, 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:54, 4 November 2020

Rename reason

Name changed as stated by creator here Toqgers ☎ 08:07, March 29, 2020 (UTC)

missing number

There is a Watchalong number 8 and number 10, but where is number 9? --Rübenbrei ☎ 19:46, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

I think that someone thought Human Nature / Family of Blood were to be counted seperately. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 19:52, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

Paternoster Gang

Is the Paternoster Gang watch-along really part of this event? It had nothing to do with Emily Cook or the Lockdown! brand. It was organised solely by Big Finish. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 19:52, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

Other Watchalongs

If we are to keep track of ALL tweetalong events during COVID-19 pandemics, I think these events should be added:

But is it really necessary? I mean, anyone can start a tweetalong event. If I arrange a tweetalong event, should it be covered by this article? I think we need some criteria for this article's coverage.--Wholmesian ☎ 05:44, May 6, 2020 (UTC)

I removed the Paternoser Gang watch-along because frankly it has nothing to do with this event, but someone else added it to a newly created “other” section. I agree that a I don’t think these should be covered, anyone can host a watch-along but none of these are part of the same event. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 09:32, May 6, 2020 (UTC)

That does seem a bit of a shame to remove The Five Doctors and the Big Finish ones, I agree that not every watch-along should be posted, but maybe keep it to anything endorsed or organised by Emily Cook or the BBC? I think that's a fair way of doing it if the "other" section is reinstated. VeryFerociousDrama ☎ 10:35, May 7, 2020 (UTC)

I think it's clear that any and all post-Lockdown, COVID-19-era Doctor Who tweetalongs are inspired by Lockdown!. For that reason, so long as the deleted COVID-19 page remains deleted, I think this is the best page to document all the ‘official’ watchalongs. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 10:50, May 7, 2020 (UTC)

Non-Lockdown stories

so weve established that non-lockdown watchalongs shouldnt be included. so why sould non-lockdown stories like 'how the monk got his habit'? DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎

The issue is that the other watchalongs aren't part of any centralised event (or, in TARDIS Monkey's case, aren't in any way shape or form acknowledged by the BBC or other rightsholders). That obviously doesn't apply to something like Message from the Doctor.
Personally, I think they should remain included on this page, if they're covered on the Wiki, until such a time as we have a COVID-19 page again. They might not be branded as Lockdown!, but these "side-releases" are clearly revolving in the same noosphere, following the trail of the ball that Emily Cook got rolling. Sorry for the tortured metaphor. We should have a list of these somewhere, and this is as good a place as any.
This is what the title of the section, "Associated releases" is supposed to convey. They're associated with Lockdown!, so until we get a better idea, that's where we list them; but they're not necessarily part of Lockdown!. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 14:51, May 17, 2020 (UTC)
an issue to be discussed elsewhere. you shouldt just pile unrelated information here just because another area doesnt exist. the other watch alongs have been decided no to be placed her, and so the nonrelated stories should not be here too. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 14:52, May 17, 2020 (UTC)
That's not your place to decide and it's not mine either. It's the place of an admin, after a lengthy debate involving the rest of the community. Until then, Tardis:Do not disrupt this wiki to prove a point applies. You started this discussion and it must be aired out. The best thing to do would be to create a Panopticon thread, and I'll go do so right now. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 14:59, May 17, 2020 (UTC)
the information should be removed until it is decided that it is allowed by an admin then... information about non-lockdown stories (which you yourself said deserves to be elsewhere) should not reside on the lockdown page - and theres already a president with the non-lockdown watches being removed. it is incredbly misleading. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎
I've started the Panopticon thread. And I would dispute the idea that it is "incredibly misleading". Again, we're calling these Associated releases, not 100%-on-brand-Lockdwon-originals. A bunch of people have been editing this page in the last few months, including admins, not to mention the oodles more passive readers; you're the first to complain. You do not get to make a decision about this and neither do I. Go argue your point in the forums, and an admin will rule over it eventually, but in the meantme, Tardis:You are bound by current policy. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 15:06, May 17, 2020 (UTC)

Fear is a Superpower Comic

The LOCKDOWN! YouTube channel also release a narrated comic strip featuring the life of Danny Pink entitled Fear is a Superpower. It's not exactly a webcast, I'm assuming it still goes under the story list? TheFartyDoctor Talk 18:55, May 20, 2020 (UTC)

Sure! There are already other things than webcasts in the story list. Doctor Who and the Time War, for one. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:00, May 20, 2020 (UTC)

Vincent and the Doctor's Gallery

Okay, we're straying into edit war territory here. Let's discuss the subject of this project that was posted on the Lockdown! youtube channel. It's a scene of Vincent and the Doctor (TV story), when Starry Night is being conceived, that leads into a series of fan art, and then the gallery scene with "pile of good things and bad things". Does this merit inclusion on this wiki and inclusion in this series? In my view, clearly not. This does not itself constitute a story, as there's a scene, a harsh cut to montage, and then a harsh cut to another scene, with thematic coherence but no narrative coherence. Even putting that aside, there's no new narrative material here, just reposting clips of an already existing episode, at best you should make a note on the episode page, and this wiki is not the place for fan art. And finally, not everything this youtube page does is noteworthy, as evidenced by other videos existing that aren't being talked about on this wiki. Let's discuss. Najawin ☎ 01:22, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

So the issue here isn't "is this part of the event". Technically anyone tweeting while watching the episode is part of the event. It's a tweetalong. It's "is this part of the event and is this something the wiki should cover". I think the reasons I've given establish it's not. Not everything this youtube video posts is worthy of being covered, and this clearly isn't supposed to be taken to be in universe, unlike your example. So, funnily enough, this Wiki actually didn't appear in The Zygon Isolation. Rather, an N-Space version of it did. Which is sort of tangential to the main point, but still defuses it nicely. Najawin ☎ 01:39, May 21, 2020 (UTC)
Well, N-Space is just where Doctor Who takes place. And since this is where the Osgoods exist, sort of by definition they're in N-Space. This isn't speculation. It clearly can't be our wiki, as Doctor Who is not real in our world, but there is Doctor Who (N-Space), and associated fansites. As for why this story isn't taking place in N-Space, well, it's not a story, for one. For the second, we can check the "publisher summary". "A compilation of Vincent van Gogh-inspired Doctor Who fan artwork along with inspirational quotes from the series which have helped fans through tough times." It's very clearly just supposed to be a compilation within a certain framing device using the episode, not an actual story set within N-Space.Najawin ☎ 01:56, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: it is a violation of Tardis:Vandalism policy to alter other users' posts on talk pages, discussion boards, and/or forums. Continued violation of this policy WILL result in a block. Shambala108 ☎ 02:05, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this isn't a story, or at the very least not a valid story. However, I see no reason not to have a page about it as a "(documentary)". Devious is a good precedent for a licensed DW documentary serving to showcase bits of something that started out as a fanwork. It doesn't mean very much that the Wiki doesn't have pages on a lot of YouTube documentaries — it also lacks a lot of pages about EDA characters. The fact that Wiki editors are only human doesn't mean the pages shouldn't, in the abstract, exist.
Ergo, I think we can cover Vincent and the Doctor's Gallery the way we cover a lot of episodes of The Fan Show: as a documentary with some invalid in-universe bits that are impossible to separate fully from the documentariness. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 09:47, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
Seconded. Danochy ☎ 12:25, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
So we all agree it's not a story within the DWU. The issue is that I don't think it's a story without the DWU either, which it would usually need to be to be a documentary. There's simply no narrative to the thing. It's a compilation of fan art. There's no discussion of how the the fan art is impacting people, or how people are making the fan art, these things are taken as ontological primitives and there's a montage of fan art. It can't be a documentary in the traditional sense. It's something else. What else that thing is is up for debate.
As for your example of Devious, I don't think the two are comparable. The one was on a BBC release, so while it wasn't produced with a license, it certainly was distributed as if it had one (though not intended to be in the DWU). But we know that the Lockdown as a whole does not have a license. This is something that's come up multiple times in our discussions in Thread:273268. The things that are debatable are "new Official Doctor Who stories", and what those are and whether those are licensed. This is quite clearly not one of those. So I think it just blatantly runs afoul of T:NO FANVID, especially considering the definition of fanvid given in the sidebar there. Najawin ☎ 18:13, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
But… if it's not a story at all, but rather a documentary, then it wouldn't need a license, would it? The portion of T:VS that's concerned with things having commercial licenses is for what counts as a valid story. But for documentary features, all that's required is that the source be reliable. I think a DWM editor like Emily Cook is a reliable source for REF information, and that's what matters.
(This Wiki's understanding of "documentary", unless I'm very wrong, is "video or audio product that tells about DW in the real world rather than being a purveyor of fiction". Vincnt and the Doctor's Gallery very much is that if nothing else.) --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 18:38, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

My point on the license issue is more to show that the two aren't comparable. Not to argue that it's not a documentary. The argument for why it's not a documentary is the prior paragraph, which I think still stands. This doesn't tell us anything about Doctor Who. It isn't intended to tell us about Doctor Who. It's intended to be a collection of fan art and inspirational quotes that have helped people through these tough times. It's intended to be part of Lockdown's overall goal, which is more community and keeping people in high spirits. But it's not telling us anything about Doctor Who or anything about Doctor Who Fan Culture except listing off a set of ontological primitives. Which just isn't sufficient for a documentary. Najawin ☎ 18:44, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

Well, it's showcasing a bunch of real-world Doctor Who-related objects (namely, the pieces of fanart). If standalone releases of VFX tests, without any additional commentary, count as documentaries, then I think so should this. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 18:46, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
If it's an individual VFX test, or a compilation of a single or similar VFX tests, that actually has narrative continuity, funnily enough. If it's just a bunch of random VFX effects thrown together, I'd agree, that would be precedent, as that's just a bunch of ontological primitives thrown together with no relation, exactly the same situation as we have here. I'd prefer to call that not a documentary and invent a new term, and perhaps then argue whether this should be covered under that new term. But by T:BOUND it would be precedent, that's just my preference. Najawin ☎ 18:52, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
Well, User:OncomingStorm12th changed Heaven Sent Previsualizations’s dab term from my "(webcast)" to "(documentary)". User:SOTO later removed the dab term altogether due to their not being any conflict, but not denying that if we were to use a dab term, this would be the correct one. So there we are. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:00, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
No, I don't think this qualifies. These are both shots mocked up in CGI, actual scenes, described, and they're united by the description of being previsualizations of a single episode. What I imagined you talking about was, say, someone compiling different VFX effects from S3 into a single documentary, and showing how they did Lazarus before immediately showing a mockup of the Master's regeneration. That would be the level of discontinuity that's analogous. (I apologize for the miscommunication, in my mind VFX test = you're testing the visual effects, not creating a CGI mockup of a scene that will be created later with some CGI and some live action.) Najawin ☎ 19:09, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
I mean, all the pieces of fan-submitted art featured in Vincent and the Doctor's Gallery are also united by a common theme, indeed, united by a common episode as their subject. I'm not sure I follow. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:14, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

The "actual scenes" clause there is rather relevant. But this also just isn't true. There are two pieces of artwork that are generic TARDISes. Perhaps they'd be more relevant from afar? But from what we can see they've got no connection to the framing device. (Also if I want to be really pedantic, some of their connection to the episode is just the style of art, "The Pandorica Opens" is featured, and that belongs to a latter episode. As in, Vincent Van Gogh outright shows up in a latter episode with the picture, so it's just out of place here. But I don't think I need to be that specific.) Najawin ☎ 19:24, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

An Adventure in Space and Time

A watchalong for An Adventure in Space and Time has been announced and scheduled for the 23rd of May, featuring live commentary from Mark Gatiss and Sacha Dhawan with the hashtag #London1963. Since the page is protected, I am hereby requesting for an administrator to add it to the list of watchalongs. TheDarkBomber -- Talk Page 12:38, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

What's more, another lock-down story has also come out Doctors Assemble. This also needs to be added as well. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 18:12, May 23, 2020 (UTC)

Name change proposal, and dates

Just wanted to drop a message here I can't see a discussion about the proposal to change this article's name to "Lockdown!". Personally, I don't see a problem with this especially if it is the convention of this wiki for "Doctor Who:..." articles. Although, I have noticed another article titled "Lockdown" without the "!", so perhaps the distinction is necessary/useful to avoid confusion. Opinions anyone?

Also, I noticed that the dates of this are listed as "21 March 2020-present", but this should probably be changed as per tweets such as https://twitter.com/Emily_Rosina/status/1269671792785973248 and https://twitter.com/Emily_Rosina/status/1269532196492148736 which indicate June 7th as the final date. Oswinoswaldbowtiesarecool ☎ 23:04, June 9, 2020 (UTC)

the page should be "Doctor Who: LOCKDOWN!" that is what Emily Cook officially stated that she was naming the event. [1] the YouTube channel also takes this exact name, and only the tweets go by "#DoctorWhoLockdown" because i'm pretty sure you cannot have a colon or exclamation mark in the hashtag - dont know why the "Lockdown" wasnt capitalised in the hashtag but it is elsewhere. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 23:10, June 9, 2020 (UTC)
While this is all true, please see the threads linked in the rename template for why this page might not be named that way. Thread:116217 seems to be a dead link, but Forum:Doctor Who prefix in titles seems to work alright. Danochy ☎ 23:42, June 9, 2020 (UTC)
Capitalising Lockdown brings us a technical problem (all caps is read as shouting, and words in all caps at this length are caught by the abuse filter unless a specific exception is made), so it is certainly easier for us to read "Doctor Who: LOCKDOWN!" as a stylisation of "Doctor Who: Lockdown!". This would incidentally be following Wikipedia's lead on non-standard capitalisation when the name isn't an acronym. If you google the name, you'll find news sources for Lockdown in regular title case, so it (presumably) isn't our invention. Finally, there's the issue of inconsistency. The YouTube channel might be called "Doctor Who: LOCKDOWN!" now, but the title of each video excludes the exclamation mark. We've gotta go with something.
As for the prefix issue, we have decided to retain the Doctor Who prefix where doing away with it would bring ambiguity (or require unnecessary disambiguation). ex: A Celebration vs. Doctor Who: A Celebration, or Regeneration vs. Doctor Who: Regeneration. This is a possibility if that's what is resolved through discussion.
× SOTO (💬/📈/↯) 00:05, June 10, 2020 (UTC)
thanks for going into detail, the link in the rename tag wasn't going to the thread (just taking me back to the main page). i think the name is best as it is right now. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 00:35, June 10, 2020 (UTC)
(The correct link is Thread:117218)
× SOTO (💬/📈/↯) 00:37, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

DWM 554

I am cautious posting this, as I do not want to reopen the discussion outside of the current thread, but I think that this information is extremely important. @RingoRoadagain claims that DWM 554 gives a comprehensive list on all of the stories that they believe to be part of the “Lockdown Season” (with the insight of having interviewed creatives like Emily Cook.


The stories that are left behind are;

The BBC released stories - which most were in agreement deserved their own page


The released COVID-related video messages


This leaves three stories (two of which are worthy candidates for deletion):


It only seems logical to go with the stories that DWM credited as being “Lockdown” releases, while finding new places to house the other stories. I think that a new page should be created to house the BBC lockdown stories. The COVID-related video messages could be covered on the main COVID or Lockdown pages.

That leaves us with the three stories that are orphaned. I am more than sure that two out of three stories will find themselves deleted (or merged) before long, and the final story – Dalek alternative script extract – could remain on this page as mention only rather than on the stories list (as it is the odd one out of all the other releases which all got webcasts – even the short story that was ‘Revenge of the Nestene’ got the webcast of Jacob Dudman’s narration). DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 00:15, July 30, 2020 (UTC)

DWM 554 does contain this list, and I agree that it is a very interesting piece of data. Still, it makes no claim to be "comprehensive", nor that the list itself was based on their discussions with Cook.
It also notably includes the non-narrative Long Song cover, which they don't separate from the rest at all, so they clearly use different criteria than we would in any case. Since we're going to slightly mess with their scheme by not including Long Song in the same list, I see no reason not to also leave Dalek alternative script extract in the list, possibly with a footnote explaining that it was not included in the DWM article. Ditto for How The Monk Got His Habit under the current policy of considering it a short story, though of course, if your proposal to merge it goes through, that would change matters somewhat.
After all, DWM are positing a Lockdown Season. It is obvious that such a thing could only contain media which are, in one shape or another, video. This is not necessarily a denial that prose obviously released under the Lockdown! banner (in this case, the Dalek alternative script extracts and arguably Monk) is not part of Lockdown!.
I agree that the lack of any mention of the BBC Website stories is compelling evidence to house them on a different page, albeit with prominent link from that page to this one and vice-versa. We might also think of some scheme whereby Doctor Who and the Time War and Incoming Message, while not part of the list of stories, are mentioned in the infobox of the watchalongs themselves as having been released to tie in with the Rose watchalong, even if they are not quite part of the Lockdown! brand and/or Season. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 00:26, July 30, 2020 (UTC)
Not interested at all in going over the discussions we have been circling for the past couple of months once again. The reason for my post was to publish the new information, that you erased from the page, as it is extremely valuable.
You can suggest that they use different criteria all you like, but the fact is that what is published in DWM is more reliable than your interpretatiobs. Coincidentally, their list is the exact same as the one I originally created at the start of the discussion...!
I will leave the topic for the admins to pick up, and hope that the new information speeds up the resolution. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 00:31, July 30, 2020 (UTC)
I was actually trying to avoid the main sticking points of our arguments (such as the Monk story). Still, the fact remains that the list you reproduced above is not quite the list DWM gave us. The list DWM gave us includes the Long Song cover, and the formatting of the article leaves no question that they consider it to be an installment of "the Lockdown Season" like any other, non-narrative though it may be.
The matter cannot possibly be resolved (by admins or otherwise) until a full solution is put forward in the Forums. Your post, while mistaken in one respect, was a step on the way to constructing such a solution, and I'd like your opinion on the option to e.g. mention the two not-quite-Lockdown stories released on the day of the Rose watchalong in the watchalongs table but not the stories list. Surely this doesn't require sparking up any old arguments?
I did not 'erase' this information from the page. The lead already contains a paragraph describing the contents of the DWM article. It phrases it by pointing out which stories currently held to be Lockdown! by this Wiki the DWM article did not include — but that is the same information, and it was redundant to have it appear twice. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 00:37, July 30, 2020 (UTC)
The Long Song cover is the only lockdown-created documentary that could be properly reviewed. All of the other documentaries are either news related, preparations for the song cover, work that was created long ago (like the Heaven Sent stuff) or a COVID-related webcast like The Doctors Say Thank You. The only other thing created in lockdown was Vincent and the Doctor’s Gallery and that is just a collection of fan work, not really worth reviewing.
The fact is that I believe the true lockdown releases have been obvious from the start - case in point my original list matching DWM’s. That’s why I have no intention whatsoever discussing it with you further as I know we are unable to see eye to eye on this matter. There’s no doubt in my mind that we’d go another 500 posts before agreeing, and I’m not prepared to do it. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 00:53, July 30, 2020 (UTC)
I dunno what's all this talk of "reviewing" is. The Wiki is unconcerned with what you choose to critique. (Unless you mean "rewatch"? But again, T:NPOV. If you think these documentaries are dull, that's your problem.)
But again, staying away from the matter of what is a part of Lockdown!, I don't see why you won't provide feedback on a suggestion for what to do with possibly the only two damn things which we agree aren't quite part of Lockdown! yet should be covered, namely Incoming Message and Doctor Who and the Time War. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:02, July 30, 2020 (UTC)
Mention only in the introduction - similar to the other content and watchalongs. That has always been my stance. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 01:06, July 30, 2020 (UTC)

New Evidence re Lockdown stories

The official Doctor Who: Lockdown! website, which launched today, gives us a list of "Minisodes" and "Extras" that are counted as part of the official Lockdown event.

The minisodes are as follows (and this information lines up EXACTLY with what was explained in DWM 554 which I mentioned above);

"Extras" are;

Now two individual sources; the official Lockdown website and the DWM, both reveal that those 16 stories above are the only releases associated with the Lockdown brand.

We should be finding a place to rehouse the other stories listed in the associated releases section. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 15:57, November 3, 2020 (UTC)

Quite so. We're long overdue finding some way to split the BBC website stories from the YouTube and Twitter stories.
Fact remains, though, that a lot of the documentary webcasts that are unquestionably part of Lockdown! (having been released on the YouTube channel) aren't on the website's listings: no A-to-Z of Impressions With Jon Culshaw to be seen, for example. And Tests for the Mechanism of Heaven Sent's Confession Dial isn't listed despite being clearly the same thing as Heaven Sent Previsualizations. So while this reinforces that we should find somewhere else to put the BBC stories than in the same table as the strictly Lockdown! ones, we shouldn't get carried away.
I still think the easiest solution is to keep it all on this page but split the lists further — I'm thinking three sections using the titles and listings given on the new website ("Minisodes", "Singalongs", "Extras"), then "BBC website stories", then a "Miscellaneous" in which we can stuff the other Lockdown! YouTube channel videos, Incoming Message, How The Monk Got His Habit, and so on. I'm unsure if the BBC videos (like Message from the Doctor) should be lumped in with "BBC website stories," "Miscellaneous", or be yet a sixth listing.
Thoughts? --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:08, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable. 16:16, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
We should be going with what DWM and the official Doctor Who: Lockdown site tells us - especially as they both agree on which stories count and which stories don't.
The 6 BBC stories should be on their own page, and the 3 COVID-related messages should be either with them or relegated to mentions on the COVID-related pages (unsure which ones).
The only stories I can see that should be up for discussion are; Breaking Isolation and How The Monk Got His Habit. In my opinion these two should either be mentioned only - due to the fact that they are the only invalid releases and have not been claimed by either Emily Rosina or the Lockdown team, or at a push included in the "Extras" section. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 16:19, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
User:Najawin's question at Talk:COVID-19#Behind the scenes has yet to be answered and could prove relevant here. Although it would not be my perfect solution due to the omissions Scrooge mentioned above, it could be feasible to cover on this article only what is on the website and then use the bts section of the COVID-19 article to provide an overview of everything else that has been created, or otherwise affected, as a result of the pandemic. --Borisashton ☎ 16:22, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
That's maybe a valid place to shunt off the BBC websites stories — although even then, it's weird historical revisionism to act as though Doctor Who and the Time War wasn't very specifically released to tie in with the Lockdown! tweetalong of TV: Rose. The real problems are the webcasts that are on the Doctor Who: Lockdown! YouTube channel, just not on the website. And, of course, Monk, which was released as part of the tweetalong hashtag, but not through the usual channels.
Speaking of which, @DiSoRiEnTeD1, those are far from the only two invalid releases. Spoof Scenes ain't valid, just to name one that unquestionably belongs on this page. But there are also all the documentary-type things and singalongs.
(I think we can discount Breaking Isolation at this stage, though. I still maintain that it can be read as a story in its own right, but in hindsight it's clear that it wasn't actually part of Lockdown! to any extent, so its licensedness is up for debate. The page should probably be reconverted into being about the poem it stole the image from, and the comic story Breaking Isolation, which was technically "fanfic", will become a BTS note. Not because it fails Rule 1, though. But because it fails Rules 2 and 3.)--Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:29, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
I think it would be helpful if you yourself @ScroogeMacDuck took responsibility of Breaking Isolation having learned from your problematic creation of the K9 "stories" (which turned out to just be replies from the official Twitter account). This "story" was only a picture from another work with a single caption, it does not equate a new story - and several people on Talk: Breaking Isolation (comic story) agree with that.
With Breaking Isolation removed from the equation the only story I see without a place is How The Monk Got His Habit. The 16 Lockdown stories can go on this page along with the 3 Extra features, and the 6 BBC website stories can go on their own page along with the 3 video messages. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 16:31, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
…Look, if you're going to ignore the arguments raised in answer to your points, I'm going to have to ask you to stop participating in this conversation until you've actually read through it properly. To wit, to name but one: the Lockdown! webcasts that are on the YouTube channel but not on the website: what do we do with'em, in your scheme?
The video messages also can't all go on the BBC website because it's not clear that Incoming Message was licensed by the BBC rather than by RTD himself, creator and owner of the character Yvonne Hartman. Even if the BBC lent it their approval, however, it certainly wasn't released by the Beeb.
I can see shunting off the BBC website stories to their own page, if that's what the consensus is, but we're still going to need a "Miscellaneous" list on the Lockdown! page to cover things like Tests for the Mechanism of Heaven Sent's Confession Dial. I suggest we stick Monk there, perhaps with a footnote explaining the specificities of that particular story's release. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:39, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
To be fair, the length of a story is irrelevant, @DiSoRiEnTeD1 - go check out Vrs and Untitled - two very short stories, each under a word count of no more than 25.
And also, theoretically, a flash-faction short story could be released on Twitter, as it is possible for a story of such a short length to be contained within a Tweet. 16:41, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
Scrooge, please do not accuse me of being off-topic in a discussion I raised.
There is no way that I was able to discuss anything else while Breaking Isolating was still factoring into that argument. I pointed out that I saw it as your responsibility to deal with this “story” (which was in actuality just a picture from another story, with a one-word caption and no evidence of it having been intended to be a story in its own right). Since Breaking Isolating has been dealt with, I am now able to discuss other things without that causing issues. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 20:36, November 3, 2020 (UTC)

(I simply reiterate the massive hole in the argument concerning Doctor Who and the Time War, while noting that "Lockdown Who Extras" says "Exclusive extra content released in conjunction with the Tweetalongs", which, even if the prose stories on the BBC website were intended to be part of Lockdown!, they would instantly fail, as they're not exclusive.) Najawin ☎ 16:48, November 3, 2020 (UTC)


Here is what I think should be done:

  • How The Monk Got His Habit should be mention only on the Doctor Who: Lockdown page as something mentioned by one of the tweetalong guests but not an official release claimed by the Lockdown team.

Finally, I will go through each of the documentary features in turn:

That leaves only two which I am completely at a loss as to where they deserve to be placed; Vincent and the Doctor's Gallery and An A-Z of Impressions with Jon Culshaw!. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 22:04, November 3, 2020 (UTC)

I commend User:DiSoRiEnTeD1's lengthy and precise post immediately above mine, but would also, as regards his earlier post, direct his attention to the fact that the ruling at what is now Talk:Games (NWASH short story) is most emphatically not that it failed Rule 1. Simply that it failed Rules 2 and 3. It is not a T:BOUND violation to mistakenly claim that it failed Rule 1, of course; talk is one thing and editing is another. But it is incorrect.
Also, DiSoRiEnTeD1 when I took issue with your earlier post, it had nothing to do with your focusing on Breaking Isolation. Rather, I took issue with your statement that "(…) with Breaking Isolation removed from the equation the only story [you] could see without a place is How The Monk Got His Habit" when there exists a much more pressing issue than Monk, and one which had already been brought up: the other YouTube webcasts.
But now you have addressed this issue, so, let's see. Under your scheme, we're already allowing ourselves to put things that clearly are extras in the "Extras" section, so I don't see why we wouldn't do the same for Vincent and the Doctor's Gallery and An A-Z of Impressions with Jon Culshaw!. I think it's a toss-up whether we put Monk on this expanded "Extras" list — it's after all basically the same thing as Spoof Scenes, in much the same way that Tests for the Mechanism of Heaven Sent's Confession Dial is pretty much the same thing as Heaven Sent Previsualizations — or if we mention it in-text on the page, but keep it off the "official" table. Either solution works. We both know where we stand there, so I suggest we stop bickering about it and put it up for the rest of the community to decide. It's a relatively minor matter.
The singalongs will most definitely not be merged, though. We can have a page about the "series" on its own terms, but one webcast = one page, regardless of length or narrativity. I mean, that's just common sense, IMO. This Wiki's basic policies must be clear and easy to enforce: "one officially-licensed webcast = one page" is as basic as it gets, and is much simpler to keep track of than lumping some webcast series into one page, and some not. We used to do something like this in the early days of the Wiki — I believe the Monster Files were once all covered on one page — but this fell by the wayside fairly quickly, and quite right too. (This is also the reason we want to have a page for BBC News - Friday 3 April 2020 (documentary). The fact that it was or was not aired on the BBC earlier is immaterial. What we have a page about is the webcast itself, as a webcast.)
But the singalongs are a non-problem. The website gives us a header for them, held to be equivalent to "Minisodes" and "Extras," so if you want us to hew as close to how the website presents it as possible, I don't see why we can't just make a third table/list.
Also, I think you might have mentioned this before, but just so we have the entire proposal in one place: what name are you proposing for the six BBC website short stories' collective page, again?--Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 22:16, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
The difference between Dalek: Spoof Scenes and How The Monk Got His Habit is that the former was claimed by both Emily Cook and the Lockdown website. As far as I am aware, Monk has never once been acknowledged by any of the Doctor Who: Lockdown team (apart from when Emily Cook dismissed it as being something that Peter Harness "mentioned"). Therefore I definitely think that all it deserves is a mention along the lines of "During his appearance as a tweetalong guest Peter Harness revealed scrapped ideas for a television episode and a short story".
While I don't think that the webcasts for the singalong deserve separate pages (literally one of them is only for information on how to get involved...) I think that an umbrella page for the series should exist, and that this page should be the only one linked under a third heading "singalong" (along with the upcoming Christmas Carol singalong series).
Maybe the name for the BBC releases something like BBC Lockdown releases. I'm not really familiar with naming conventions, etc. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 22:34, November 3, 2020 (UTC)
Feel free to create an umbrella page for Singalong (series), but unless we do the same for "Extras" and "Minisodes" I don't see why we shouldn't link to every individual webcast. Again, that's how the Lockdown! website does it. I'm not sure why you find anything wrong with it, save for this (as I have said, misguided) notion of yours that the content (or lack thereof, as the case may be!) of the webcasts is at all relevant to this issue.
Also, I feel like a broken record, but as has clearly been established already, Cook's comment on How The Monk Got His Habit clearly referred to the unproduced TV story, not to the short story — and the latter is the thing we're talking about here. Consequently, whether it has or has not been "acknowledged by any of the Doctor Who: Lockdown team" depends on whether we deem Peter Harness, in his quality as the guest of honour of the Zygon tweetalong, counted as part of the "team". I say yea, you say nay. We could argue about this until the cybercows come home to roost. As I have said, let's stop talking about it between the two of us and leave the matter of whether it goes in the text, or in-the-table-but-with-a-footnote, to the rest of the community.
BBC Lockdown releases would be a bad idea because it kind of implies that these stories were part of the event known as "Lockdown", whereas the whole point of splitting them into another page would be to highlight that they're not. How do the BBC themselves call it, on their website? That's what we need to look at. What language (if not what title) they use. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 22:53, November 3, 2020 (UTC)

I once again reiterate my point that the wording of the website does not actually confirm that the BBC releases are not to be taken as part of Lockdown!, but rather they are not exclusively hosted as Lockdown! content. The BBC hosted their prose stories on Staying in the TARDIS, which as noted the original discussion, was originally a slapdash affair that they sort of churned out very quickly. (It's since gotten much better.) Najawin ☎ 23:15, November 3, 2020 (UTC)

Have only just seen this comment.
The short stories are still there, albeit quite far down the page. I think that a page for Staying in the TARDIS should be created - all six BBC lockdown stories should be housed on this page, along with information about the puzzles, games, recipes and other things that were released under the "Staying in the TARDIS" brand. Also, the video The Doctors Say Thank You is listed here too. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 01:20, November 4, 2020 (UTC)

The umbrella title for the Long Song singalong should be The Lockdown Longsong - which is the title given to it by the Doctor Who: Lockdown website. Likewise, the upcoming Christmas carol singalong should be given the title A Lockdown Carol.

Here is my draft of how the page should look;

Minisodes

# Title Featuring Tweetalong Author Release date
1 Strax Saves the Day Strax, Vastra The Day of the Doctor Steven Moffat 21 March 2020
2 Revenge of the Nestene Nestene Consciousness Rose Russell T Davies 26 March 2020
3 The Raggedy Doctor by Amelia Pond Amelia Pond The Eleventh Hour Steven Moffat 3 April 2020
4 Rory's Story Rory, Amy The Doctor's Wife Neil Gaiman 11 April 2020
5 Farewell, Sarah Jane Jo, Ace, Gita, Luke, Clyde, Rani, Mr Smith The Stolen Earth/Journey's End Russell T Davies 19 April 2020
6 Shadow of a Doubt Bernice Summerfield, Daughter of Mine Human Nature/The Family of Blood Paul Cornell 24 April 2020
7 The Shadow in the Mirror Thirteenth Doctor, Daughter of Mine
8 Sven and the Scarf Sven Dalek Andrew Ireland 30 April 2020
9 Pompadour SS Madame de Pompadour The Girl in the Fireplace Steven Moffat 6 May 2020
10 The Zygon Isolation Osgood, Osgood The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion Peter Harness 10 May 2020
11 The Descendants of Pompeii Lobus Caecilius's descendants The Fires of Pompeii James Moran 17 May 2020
12 Listen Twelfth Doctor Listen Steven Moffat 20 May 2020
13 Fear Is a Superpower Danny Pink, Clara James Peaty
14 Doctors Assemble! The Doctors An Adventure in Space and Time James Goss 23 May 2020
15 The Secret of Novice Hame Hame, Tenth Doctor New Earth/Gridlock Russell T Davies 30 May 2020
16 The Best of Days Bill, Nardole World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls Steven Moffat 7 June 2020

Extras

# Title Featuring Tweetalong Author Release date
1 Dalek: Spoof Scenes Ninth Doctor, Rose Dalek Robert Shearman 30 April 2020
2 Tests for the Mechanism of Heaven Sent's Confession Dial Heaven Sent 14 April 2020
3 Heaven Sent Previsualizations
4 Sally Sparrow and the Weeping Angel Sally Sparrow, Weeping Angels Blink Steven Moffat 2 November 2020

Singalongs

# Title Tweetalong Release date
1 The Lockdown Longsong The Rings of Akhaten 26 May 2020
2 A Lockdown Carol A Christmas Carol TBC

DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 23:20, November 3, 2020 (UTC)

Concerning the Singalongs, I think you don't understand. Our pages are not about the events. They are about the individual webcasts that happened to be made about the events. Insofar as we document the "events", we should do so in a completely different part of the page than the one devoted to releases. (Also, why not include the A-Z in "Extras" as I proposed?) --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:23, November 4, 2020 (UTC)
I see no need whatsoever to include all of the Long Song releases on a list for this page. A link to an umbrella Long Song series page could be provided (as can be seen on my draft) and then that page could provide a list of all the releases in that series. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 01:34, November 4, 2020 (UTC)
I suppose that's viable — but by the same token we might as wellc reate Lockdown! Extras, Lockdown! Minisodes, and so on, and link to those. I'm not sure why you want to treat the singalong webcasts differently to the other kinds, is what I'm saying. Your solution is certainly feasible by policy, but it just seems a bit odd. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:38, November 4, 2020 (UTC)
Re:A similar misunderstanding, I believe there was agreement on the old thread to create a page for Staying in the TARDIS, but this did not solve our disagreement over whether the stories should still be considered part of Lockdown! or not. So while surely such a page should be created, it's not a solution to the problem we find ourselves in, which is the ambiguous wording of the website and the messy nature of the whole affair. Najawin ☎ 01:43, November 4, 2020 (UTC)
If I had it my way there would only be a single page for all the Long Song material, but you have said that they deserve separate pages and so I have reluctantly accepted that.
I still think that only the umbrella series should be liked to this page however - this will simplify the information to the casual reader. The separate Long Song releases have long titles and there are quite a few of them, this will get even more complicated when the Christmas Carol cover comes. It just looks better and is easier for casual readers to access the information and immediately see that there were two singalongs rather than a bunch of information about how to be a part of the event, etc. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 01:47, November 4, 2020 (UTC)
That's a fair concern. How about splitting the tables via further subtitles? Something like:
===Singalongs===
[Brief overview of the singalongs as a whole]
====The Lockdown Long Song====
[Brief written overview of the Long Song cover]
[Table with all the Long Song webcasts]
====The Lockdown Carol====
[Brief written overview of the Carol cover]
[Table with all the Carol webcasts]
…? This would allow us to keep everything on one page without being needlessly confusing. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:53, November 4, 2020 (UTC)
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