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| == Radical rewrite ==
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| This page underwent a major repurposing today. It is no longer the home of the actual list of allowed stories. Rather, it now serves as the basic explanation for how the BBC's lack of definition of canon affects the wiki. Importantly, it divorces discussion of canon from the actual list of allowed stories, which now can be found at [[tardis:valid sources]].
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| The lengthy talk page that used to be here can now be found by clicking on the archive at right, and it has also been moved to [[forum:The original inclusion debates]], so that it can easily be found in the forum archives. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} <span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">00:27: Wed 06 Jun 2012 </span>
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| :I fully approve of this rewrite effort, and some of my reasons can be found at [[Forum:Inclusion debate: Death Comes to Time]]. In fact, I think it might be good to include some of the background there (talking about Sherlock Holmes fans' "Great Game", and so forth) in this article. CzechOut, would you mind if I brought some of that here? I'd just do it anyway on the old "'''be bold'''" principle, but I don't want to step on your toes while you're doing such a major revision. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <sup>[[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk to me]]</sup> 03:31, June 6, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::I've added this, somewhat belatedly. Feel free to edit mercilessly. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <sup>[[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk to me]]</sup> 02:34, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
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| == Canon. Says who? ==
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| I posted along ramble earlier which has now been archived. The gist of it was "If the BBC has never stated its position on what is/isn't canon, then how can people editing a fan website make such a declaration"? Someone here makes a point to the effect of "since the BBC hasn't, we must!" Which really smacks of arrogance and/or fanwankery. There are some key points here:
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| 1)Contrary to what some people like tot think the current production team '''does''' have a policy. Without going into anal detail, they have clearly decided that the VNA don't fit into their continuity(looms, Human Nature etc etc etc). And, likewise that the PDA don't fit into their continuity(whither PDA #64). Sarah's comment about "Ace" also seems to disregard the DWM comics pre-2005. And then there's the Two Time Wars. Thus it can clearly(yes it can) be established that the current team's idea is that the tv show 1963-89, J9 and company and the 1996 movie ARE canon. As is everything from Rose onwards in all media. Anything else is safe to be contradicted.
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| 2)But if we accept the PDA and EDA as canon, we are contradicting the canon of the present show. And again, '''very important''' one of the PDA is "Scream of the Shalka". Either '''all''' the PDA including this are canon, or '''none''' of the PDA or canon. However, in the EDA "Gallifrey Chronicles" it is mentioned that the Doctor has three possible Ninth incarnations. This does allow the Shalka, and thus the pDA and EDA to be canon, ''but in a parallel universe to the New Series and its spin-offs''.
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| 3)We thus are faced with clear choices. a)only the tv show is canon. b)The canon policy that is used by the current production team(mentioned above) is used. c)Using the BBC novels, BOTH Richard E. grant and Christopher Eccleston are the Ninth Doctor, just in alternate realities. d)Everything is canon, including Cushing, Grant, the annuals, the merchandise "histories" etc. Since the BBC hasn'y stated their canon policy, who are some internet fans to decide on it for them, and then use that as a rigid rule?
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| Personally, I'd suggest the articles be structured that only the tv information is in the main body. And then underneath ALL relevant information be listed, whatever medium, but with notes indicating where they are contradictory. And, importantly, NO official proclamation that one medium is somehow superior to another(like the idiots who claim that No Future somehow decanonises the FASA game. How is one "superior" to the other??). {{unsigned-anon|41.132.116.62}}
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| :Well, as you can see the [[Canon policy]] page has recently been rewritten. The wiki now makes no claims, by policy, about what is or isn't canonical ''Doctor Who'', or that one medium is superior to another. There may be some stray remarks here and there which need to be edited or removed to fit this policy; if you come upon them, as they say on Wikipedia, {{w|WP:SOFIXIT|so fix it}}.
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| :You are of course, right that the current production team treats licensed material such as the novels and comics differently than it treats television stories, but I'm not sure that the difference amounts to an actual "canon policy" on the part of the production team. First of all, they'd never use that word. Second, they're just as willing to contradict a past TV story as a past book — otherwise we'd never have gotten from "[[The Aztecs (TV story)|You can't rewrite history! Not one line!]]" to "[[Forest of the Dead (TV story)|Time can be rewritten!]]" The difference is that when they're contradicting past TV stories, they ''usually'' use a throwaway line to patch up the discontinuity, something they don't bother to do when contradicting the books.
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| :Now, you can say that by abandoning the word "canon" and shifting to a [[Tardis:Valid sources|valid sources policy]], we're trying to have it both ways: we don't make canonical claims, but we still get to draw lines about what does and doesn't "count". But that's just an inevitable part of the game we're playing here, trying to make a single coherent fictional universe out of nearly 50 years of stories by hundreds of different writers. When we list valid sources here, we're not making any claim about ''Doctor Who'' as a whole. You can still say that the Master and the Monk were the same person if you like. We're just saying which sources we're going to use ''here''.
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| :If you'd prefer to play the game by different rules, you can either try to convince the rest of the editors [[Forum:Panopticon|here]] in the Panopticon (though I doubt you'll get very far), or you can start up your own ''Doctor Who'' wiki using different rules (TV only or whatever you please). But here, the most active editors have mostly agreed on what we're going to count in ''our'' version of the "game". We have no objection to other people playing with different rules, but these are the rules we've decided on here, and it'll take a lot of effort to convince enough editors to make the change you're suggesting.
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| :We've been discussing that "game" [[Forum: Inclusion debate: Death Comes to Time|here]], if you'd care to join us. But if you do, please sign your posts by typing four tildes, like so: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. That'll produce a signature and timestamp. Thanks! —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <sup>[[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk to me]]</sup> 19:01, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
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| Sorry, but that is quite frankly nonsense. You admit that the BBC hasn't ruled on which(if any spin-offs) count. You admit that the makers of the tv show from 2005 onwards have disregarded certain spin-offs. You admit that there is no hierarchy of the spin-offs. Then....you say "but we here have our version of canon so that's that we're using!" Well, whatever. There was nothing remotely radical about what I proposed. This site needs to decide whether it's a Doctor Who wiki, or just a wiki devoted to a small group of Doctor Who fanboys with a unique take on "canon". If it's the latter then things are fine the way they are. If it's the former the "canon policy" needs a '''major''' overhaul ASAP. [[Special:Contributions/41.132.116.62|41.132.116.62]]<sup>[[User talk:41.132.116.62#top|talk to me]]</sup> 06:47, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| :41.132 from your earlier post.
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| :Prove that the current production team ''does'' have a policy. This proof must be from a [[T:OOU SRC|valid source]]. You state that they "clearly decided that VNA don't fit their continuity".
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| :From what I can tell, your argument seems to stem from this '''observation''', that because there is this contradiction then therefore all of the stuff that's contradicted shouldn't be included. Or that anything said in a later story be that 1964 or 2004 which contradicts another piece of information from earlier means it should be disregarded. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:38, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| That is taking the main point off on a tangent. The main point is that, as this site insists, there is no official canon policy, then who is anyone here to declare something "non-canonical" or a "non-DWU adventure"? Yes, the clear contradiction between the New Series and the Virgin books(as an '''example''') was from the power of observation. But then all the differences this site uses to de-canonise various adventures also comes from '''observation'''. And, if '''stories''' take superiority over guidebooks etc. the entire thrust of "canon" here is totally meaningless AND contradictory. Quite a feat. And just because something doesn't "git in with the DWU continuity", it must be "non-canon" is absurd on multiple levels. Since the current continuity uses the early 70's dating for UNIT The Web Of Fear and The Invasion must therefore be non-canon. Since we witnessed the destruction of the Earth in the New Series, then The Ark must be non-canon. Since Davros is now an integral part of Dalek history, then The Daleks(the first story) must be non-canon. And on and on it goes. And yet, recognising that two stories contain contradictory contnuity is achieved through....'''observation'''! The same thing you make a big deal out of. If one book states one thing, and another book states something else, we have to '''observe''' the difference. Then, of course, who is to say one book is "right" and one is "Wrong"? So deeming ANYTHING "non-canon" or "non-DWU adventure" is entirely a POV and quite frankly retarded.[[Special:Contributions/41.132.116.62|41.132.116.62]]<sup>[[User talk:41.132.116.62#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:04, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| To add to this, there was a lot of stuff that was regarded as official, yet ''appears to''(observation) have been contradicted. As an obvious example, The Daleks was meant to be a self-contained story, yet the Daleks have returned a few times since then. Likewise, the VNA were meant to be the official continuation post-Survival, yet various facts in the subsequent tv stories(as well as the audios, comics and other books) can clearly be observed to contradict these books. In 2003 Richard E grant's "Shalka" Doctor was clearly meant to be the official Ninth Doctor(and the '''BBC''' book ''The Legend'' states as such), yet the New Series states that Eccleston is. And yet simple observation sees the New Series wildly contradicting the Classic Series. Then there's the whole "half-human" thing which in 1996 was clearly meant to be the official continuity. So, what it boils down to is this...one person states something is real/official/canon. Someone else states something else is real/official/canon. The BBC takes no stand either way. Anyone with '''any''' powers of observation sees the two things can not exist in the same so-called "Whoniverse" or "Doctor Who Universe"(both of which are unofficial fanwank terms btw). Sadly, the two most frequent solutions are either to go for the "total" Who continuity(ala the Compleat Adventures), or to choose one specific continuity, declare that "Canon"(on whose authority?!) and declare supposedly everything that doesn't fit into that a "non-DWU adventure). While both are flawed, the former is better as it doesn't set some internet fans up as "authoritie" on what is or isn't "canon", and what is or isn't a "DWU adventure". The continuity changes all the time, depending on the writer of '''that''' particular story you're experiencing right now. And '''it is all canon'''. [[Special:Contributions/41.132.116.62|41.132.116.62]]<sup>[[User talk:41.132.116.62#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:41, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| :Well, we've arrived at this policy through lengthy discussion.
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| :I picked that main point because the rest of your argument was split from that main point.
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| :I'm not going to argue any of your points that lead from that. So I went back to your primary argument. Your observation I noted was of actual actions in the real world, you were it seemed interpreting what the production team has done.
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| :Observations of a narrative are...well that's what you do, you read, watch, listen to the narrative and make observations.
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| :Canon is a convenient umbrella term that covers the concept of "what we cover on this wiki". Don't get bogged down on the term ''canon''. We're not imposing on anyone's personal idea of canon. We're just stating what we cover in order to manage this wiki effectively. We've got pages like the [[Tardis:Valid sources]] to cover questions like this. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 17:14, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| But that is '''very''' subjective. We need to look at things logically and rationally. BBC Television makes a programme called "Doctor Who". We can get into the fact that the show itself is riddled with continuity errors(UNIT Dating, Atlantis, The Doctor's age, being half-human etc. etc.) but we don't need to go into that here. In addition to making the show the BBC also produces Doctor Who spin-off tv(eg. Torchwood), Doctor Who audios, Doctor Who Books(both fiction and guides). Even these often contradict the tv show. But then we get to the main point here. The BBC licenses out the rights to produce original Doctor Who fiction to non-BBC companies. Since these are all NOT the BBC, and are using valid licences, who is to say that one is "more right" than another? I used the FASA/No Future example for a specific reason. That at the time of the FASA game's release it didn't contradict anything. In fact it '''still''' doesn't contradict the tv show one bit. What it does contradict is a book(again a licensed novel) released many years later. And that book itself contradicts the tv show.
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| But that is really not the main point. The main point is this....the BBC has licensed out the rights to Doctor Who to various companies over the years(IDW, World Distributors, Telos Publishing, Marvel, Virgin Books, Target Books, Big Finish Audios...well you get the idea). None of these companies are the BBC, yet every one of them was making officially licensed Doctor Who fiction. The fact that one group may have chosen for ''their'' officially licensed Doctor Who fiction to be a retelling of a classic tv serial on the big screen(Cushing of course) does absolutely not mean that it is any less "real" than another company trying to make stories that ''could'' fit seamlessly into the tv show. Because neither is "Real" in the way that the tv show is. They are both licensed spin-offs. And again, the thv show itself is full of contradictions that only the worst kind of fanwankery can explain. Whether it's the World Distributors Annuals. The Pescatons LP, the Virgin Novels, the Big Finish Montjly Line, the Peter Cushing movies, the TV Comics or whatever...it's all the same. Officially licensed Doctor Who fiction that the BBC are under no obligation to be consistent with. The fact that, as an example, 'Phantasmagoria' ''could'' slot into the tv continuity while, say, 'The Night Walkers' couldn';t is neither here no there. And the tv show may very well do something that makes it impossible for Phantasmagoria to do so. Then there's the fact that ''Mission To Magnus'' was specifically written for the tv show, and has since been ofccially adapted as both a book and an audio(with the original cast). And yet, comments in 'Mindwarp' mean that Magnus doesn't fit into the tv continuity. Then there's the whole "Which Shada if any is canon?"
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| But this can all be disregarded. ANY official Doctor Who fiction/product is canon. because there is no way anyone, even Ian Levine, could tie it all together into one continuity. And anyone who claims that one spin-off(whether book, audio, comic whatever) is "part of the Whoniverse" while another is "a non-DWU adventure" needs their head examined. [[Special:Contributions/41.132.116.62|41.132.116.62]]<sup>[[User talk:41.132.116.62#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:02, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| :I'm now a little confused at your mention again of the FASA material. In short narrative are what we use to build the in-universe elements of this wiki.
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| :That is how we use information on this wiki, along with other policies it's how we decide what's included and what isn't. Again, have you read the [[Tardis:Valid sources]] article? Four little rules in very big font.
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| :Again I'm confused at why you're discussing contradictions in the narrative in your second paragraph. See [[T:VS]]. The BBC was never under any obligation to be consistent with any of its ''Doctor Who'' production, the TV series especially is not consistent.
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| :Finally. Fine. Disregard it, personally. We are not telling you or anyone who's reading this wiki what to believe, we're just saying this is how we cover it and these are the rules and polices we've arrived at. It's a decision based on countless discussions with people who edit frequently on this wiki. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 05:08, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| You're nitpicking small details. Any specific item was simply an example. The big picture is that you constantly state that "the BBC has never made any pronouncement on canon". You agree that all licensed spin-offs are equal, and that the tv show is under no obligation to be consistent with any licensed spin-off, You also agree that the tv show itself is full of continuity errors.
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| And yet, because of "lengthy discussion" we now have a "canon policy" where ''some'' stories are part of "the Doctor Who Universe" and ''others'' are '''not''' part of "the Doctor Who Universe". In addition certain officially licensed spin-offs are '''valid sources''', while other equally official licensed spin-offs are not. And you fail to recognise how completely absurd this all is...tagging certain official(in some cases even BBC-produced) stories as "non-DWU adventures". Whatever policy this wiki has (vs, canon policy, lengthy discussions, whatever) it will fail, as there is no single "Doctor Who Universe", and there can '''never''' be. The other quite frankly ludicrous thing is the "Timeline". ie 'This story occurs before/after [x]'. The only things where that works is with tv stories, and where the spin-offs actually '''say''' that(eg. with the Big Finish stories). Even then they completely fail to fit into a single "DWU continuity" or whatever you call it.
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| My main pint is this:if it's an officially licensed Doctor Who story it's canon. Period. Whether it fits into "the continuity" is irrelevant, because even the tv show by itself has no single continuity. Dismissing officially licensed Doctor Who stories or products as "non-DWU" because of "discussion" is wrong. [[Special:Contributions/41.132.116.62|41.132.116.62]]<sup>[[User talk:41.132.116.62#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:42, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| :Depends on your point of view.
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| :I and other admins (and other frequent editors) manage this. So it's not absurd at all. It's manageable.
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| :As we've said the BBC hasn't made a statement on a canon for ''Doctor Who'', just licensing.
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| :Officially licensed Doctor Who and canon are separate things.
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| :Discussion is how decisions are made on wikis, it's a community discussion. As with our inclusion policy, you can believe that it's wrong.
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| :But we don't. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:11, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| No they aren't. If it's an official product it's canon. However, it may necessarily fit into the continuity, which is something completely separate from canon. The Peter Cushing movies are canon. Scream of the Shalka is canon. Doctor Who Unbound is canon. But none of them fit into the current continuity. I say ''current'' because the continuity itself changes all the time. Not just in-universe, by timey-wimey stuff or whatever. But because the production team of the time have certain ideas about what Doctor Who is and what it should be. So Innes LLoyds' idea or Barry Letts' or John Nathan-Turner's or whoever's will be different to Steven Moffat's. And the next producer may very well set out to make a show as different as possible both in style and in content as the current era. In addition, many of the official spin-offs were never "edited" or "produced" ala the tv show, so you could(and frequently did!) have authors deliberately inserting their own pet fanboy theories into stories, or even writing stories that deliberately screwed with established continuity. Thus, there is no such thing as "Canon" in the sense that you are using the term. Whether "We do" think it exists, it doesn't, "discussion" or not.
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| There are two separate issues here:
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| a)A television show called "Doctor Who" which '''should''' (but doesn't necessarily) have a self-contained consistent continuity.
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| b)All the officially licensed(ie legal) Doctor Who products produced by anyone with a proper legal right to make them. Thus, a Target book, a Big Finish audio, a Cushing movie, and IDW comic, or information on a Doctor Who chocolate wrapper are all equally canon. A novel written by someone connected with the show, and the "information" on a Cyberman action figure written by some who doesn't know Telos from Traken are both canon. Even if one may be consistent with the tv show, and one is way off. Because if it's an official Doctor Who product it's canon. You may not think that. But it's true. It's damn true. [[Special:Contributions/41.132.116.62|41.132.116.62]]<sup>[[User talk:41.132.116.62#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:13, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| :As I've said you're free to think that. But there is no concrete proof of a connection between canon and licensing. That may be the position of other wikis and other series/licences.
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| :But that's not what the policy of this wiki is. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 16:38, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| There is no concrete proof of anything. However let's play simple logic.
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| a)The BBC have never stated what is or isn't canon.
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| b)All sorts of official Doctor Who stories have appeared as books, comics, audios etc. Many contradict each other. But see a)
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| c)The only way that a certain type of fan can comprehend this is the ''fan-created'' idea of a ''Whoniverse''. The next step is fanwankery such as "Season 6b" or the idea that clones of the Master were created after ''Survival''.(why?!) It makes me shudder just typing this
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| d)Certain things contradict each other. Eg. the comics and the Big Finish Audios, the VNA and BBC Books, the VNA and the comics.....and yet we have things like Fribisher in BBC Books, Bernice Summerfield and Izzy in the BFA etc,
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| e)AT the time many products were created there was no question of them "not being canon". Largely because such a concept didn't exist. And yet that's what we are told today. As an obvious example, early TV Comics and World Distributor Annuals unambiguously state that the Doctor is from Earth. And yet, that isn't in the continuity. Likewise the Cushing movies were stated as being another(future or past) incarnation of the Doctor etc.
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| f)Likewise the dreaded retconning. Eg at the time of Morbius those other faces '''were'' the Doctor. But it was later stated that they weren't. And thank God that Lungbarrow never became a tv story that that "loom" nonsense. And yet Lungbarrow became an officially licensed book, with that loom crap. Despite the numerous references to families, and Time Lords being children.
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| Now, we can either go point-by-point making an "inclusion policy" that "We" "discuss" should be included(but this would often mean literally going line-by-line through tv episodes). Or we can accept that since the BBC makes no pronouncement about any of the spin-offs, and it's all officially-licensed Doctor Who...well you work it out. [[Special:Contributions/41.132.116.62|41.132.116.62]]<sup>[[User talk:41.132.116.62#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:55, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| :Good. Okay. We agree. No concrete proof. Hence, our policies.
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| :Nothing you've so far said disagrees with our polices, though you seem to have mis-interpreted some things.
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| :Narratives are the things that are important whether they're contradictory or not. I won't repeat the rest but it's in our valid sources policy that I've mentioned above. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 17:04, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
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