Talk:Reconnaissance Dalek: Difference between revisions

← Older edit

Talk:Reconnaissance Dalek (edit)

Revision as of 11:56, 17 June 2021

12,850 bytes added , 17 June 2021

no edit summary

Scrooge MacDuck

Tech, emailconfirmed, Administrators

38,209

edits

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 == Rename ==
 Although the Case Files are valid and names from the Files CAN be used, I am against calling it "The Reconnaissance Dalek". Seems both wrong and on the nose for an in-universe article like this one. If it should be changed I'd say it should be called "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek (Resolution)". --[[User:Danniesen|DCLM]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:12, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
-: It's the name by which an in-universe character who encountered it chose to call it — no different from how the Dalek in ''[[Dalek (TV story)|Dalek]]'' is known to us as "[[Metaltron]]", also an arguably "wrong" and "on-the-name" nickname given to a Dalek by a character who encountered it. Similarly, I don't think [[Rusty]] or [[Lumpy]] chose those names, and the arguably-inaccuracy and on-the-nosed-ness of both is, I think, obvious.
+: It's the name by which an in-universe character who encountered it chose to call it — no different from how the Dalek in ''[[Dalek (TV story)|Dalek]]'' is known to us as "[[Metaltron]]", also an arguably "wrong" and "on-the-name" nickname given to a Dalek by a character who encountered it. Similarly, I don't think [[Rusty (Into the Dalek)|Rusty]] or [[Lumpy]] chose those names, and the arguably-inaccuracy and on-the-nosed-ness of both is, I think, obvious.
 : So I think all precedents are for us to use an arguably-inaccurate or somewhat silly nickname, over just "Species Name (Episode)", when no true name is given. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:17, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
 ::Those names are all used in the narrative of those stories in which they appear. Case File is valid, yes, but it is second-rate compared to the episode to which they are attached. --[[User:Danniesen|DCLM]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:20, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
-:::I don't really see how "the Reconnaissance Dalek" is much different from "the Ux" or "the Remnants". If we have pages at [[Ux]] and [[Remnant]], this one could very well be '''Reconnaissance Dalek (Resolution)'''. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:25, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
+:::I don't really see how "the Reconnaissance Dalek" is much different from "the Ux" or "the Remnants". If we have pages at [[Ux (The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos)|Ux]] and [[Remnant]], this one could very well be '''Reconnaissance Dalek (Resolution)'''. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:25, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
 ::::I agree. "The" is just weird to use here... --[[User:Danniesen|DCLM]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:29, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
@@ Line 13: / Line 13: @@
 ::::@OncomingStorm: Hm… I see what you mean, but ''The Ux'' and ''The Remnants'' are both established as the name for the entire species, and are all ''plural''. Whereas here, it's singular, and as Danniesen noticed ''doesn't'' correspond to the actual species name as given in the peiosde — which would be 'Reconnaissance ''Scout'' Dalek'. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:10, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
 I interpreted this "name" as follows: it is not "The Reconnaissance Dalek", it is "the Reconnaissance Dalek" as in the one the Doctor and company encountered rather than any attempt to give it a name. --[[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:33, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
+:::::Only thing I have a quarrel(spelling?) with is the use of the word "The". --[[User:Danniesen|DCLM]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:34, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
+: That's possible, I guess, but it again requires you to ignore that as given in the episode itself, the name of the Dalek caste to which this particular baddun belongs is ''Reconaissance <u>Scout</u> Daleks'', not ''Reconnaissance Daleks''.
+: So if it's not a name per se, it's at least an original description, rather than just "that one [Name of Species]".
+: Would "Reconnaissance Dalek" (''sans'' "the") be acceptable, perhaps? It's less cumbersome than "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek (Resolution)", it's more precise than "Dalek (Resolution)", it doesn't require a dab term unlike the other two, ''and'' also unlike the other two, is an actual in-universe descriptor used for this specific Dalek by a character in a valid source. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:43, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
+:: I don't think "Reconnaisance Dalek" is a very good suggestion for this page. Personally, I think that it is a very confusing name considering the similar name for the type of this Dalek. To be honest I think the current name is best. The title doesn't need to be precise to its nature as a recon scout because it was the only Dalek seen in the episode so "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek (Resolution)" is unnecessary. --[[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:40, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
+:::Whatever is decided I'm good with that (as long as "The" is not used). --[[User:Danniesen|DCLM]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:48, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
+:Given that the discussion on this page's name hasn't continued for more than a year and a half, should we simply remove the "this topic might have a better name" banner?[[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:20, September 25, 2020 (UTC)
+:: Indeed not! The discussion hasn't had any effect because no ''admin'' has ruled on it yet — not because any kind of consensus has been reached that we ''shouldn't'' change the name. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:21, September 25, 2020 (UTC)
+::: Ah, my apologies. I didn't know that an admin needed to rule on it. But it is concerning that it's been nearly two years since the name banner was added to the page and nothing has happened yet. [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:05, September 25, 2020 (UTC)
+Okay, I've just rewatched ''[[Resolution (TV story)|Resolution]]'', and I think we should rename this page to "Recon Scout Dalek (Resolution)" and [[Reconnaissance scout]] to "Recon Scout Dalek". When the [[Thirteenth Doctor]] confronts the Dalek in its new casing, she says:
+ ''Even the Recon Scout Daleks, the first ones out of Skaro. Humanity bands         together, vanquishes you, and buries you for centuries.''
+What's great about the name "Recon Scout Dalek" is that it's a name directly used in ''[[Resolution (TV story)|Resolution]]'', rather than being a blend of different terms like the names "Reconnaissance Dalek" or "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek". Its use in ''[[Resolution (TV story)|Resolution]]'' is in a context that works with equal relevance for both this individual Dalek and Recon Scout Daleks as a wider [[Dalek]] rank, and also isn't extremely long like "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek (Resolution).
+Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with me, something needs to be done with renaming this page and [[Reconnaissance scout]], as this discussion's been dead for nearly two years with no resolution (pun not intended). I find it pretty annoying. [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:38, November 16, 2020 (UTC)
+:I strongly oppose using "Recon scout" over "Reconnaissance scout". It's just oral shorthand — we're not going to rename [[Sonic screwdriver]] to "[[Sonic screwdriver|Sonic]]" no matter how many times Thirteen uses it as if it were a noun ("My sonic!…"). For that same reason, it's "recon''naissance'' scout" unless you're in a hurry because you're being chased by one, please and thank you.
+: And I don't really see any persuasive argument for renaming to any version of [[Reconnaissance scout (Resolution)]]. As has been said before, if we're going to simply use a dabbed descriptor, "Dalek (Resolution)" is specific enough without going into its rank. The proposal that opened this discussion was to call it "the Reconnaissance Dalek" because that is a name for ''this specific individual'', given to it by Yaz in retrospect — and which is distinct from the fact that it is "''a'' recon(naissance) scout Dalek". It's, if you will, the difference between [[Bremm|a lone Cybermen]] and [[Ashad|the Lone Cyberman]]. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:53, November 16, 2020 (UTC)
+::Alright, maybe it's best to just leave the names of [[Dalek (Resolution)]] and [[Reconnaissance scout]] as they are for now. But if the term "Reconnaissance scout Dalek" gets used in a future story with reference to this Dalek, I propose we change it to [[Reconnaissance scout Dalek (Resolution)]].
+::Also sorry for sounding kind of aggressive in my last comment. I don't mean to be rude at all, I'm just bugged by the rename tags on both this page and [[Reconnaissance scout]] having been up for nearly two years with seemingly no conclusion made. [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:25, November 16, 2020 (UTC)
+:::Let’s wait until the next episode. Given circumstances, that I cannot say without breaking [[Tardis:Spoiler policy|the Spoiler policy]], there is a possibility for a reference. And if we don’t, I’ll see if I can get an admin to rule it concluded. —[[User:Danniesen|DCLM]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:04, November 16, 2020 (UTC)
+:: It appears that this time around, "Kevin" is referred to as "the Recon Dalek" in dialogue. With "Recon" being, as was discussed above, just oral shorthand for "Reconnaissance," I think this is another point in favour of "the [[Reconnaissance Dalek]]" being an individualised nickname for this specific "[[reconnaissance scout]] [[Dalek]]". Can we carry on with that rename, or are there further objections? [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:07, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
+::: I agree with you - "Reconnaissance Dalek" is about as clear and full of a name as we're going to get, and I prefer it over "Reconnaissance scout" as the former specifically refers to it being a [[Dalek]]. Also, if we do go with "Reconnaissance Dalek (Resolution)" for this page's name, I believe, therefore, that [[Reconnaissance scout]] should be named "Reconnaissance Dalek" for consistency. [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:05, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+:::: Actually, my proposal was [[Reconnaissance Dalek]] for this page, as a nickname given to this specific individual, and [[Reconnaissance scout]] (or [[Dalek reconnaissance scout]]) for the general Dalek variant. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:11, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+::: [[Reconnaissance Dalek]] for the individual, and [[Reconnaissance scout]] or [[Dalek reconnaissance scout]] for the variant, all sound a bit too similar in my opinion; if we were to use [[Reconnaissance Dalek]] for the variant, and [[Reconnaissance Dalek (Resolution)]] for the individual, then we can distinguish between the two much more clearly. [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+::: Alternatively, we can leave [[Reconnaissance scout]] as it is, and call this page [[Reconnaissance scout (Resolution)]]. It's used to refer to both the variant and the individual, and we've got at least a few pages on Daleks who are never referred to with the word "Dalek" in their name, such as [[Overseer (Planet of the Ogrons]]. [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+::::Thing is, if we can avoid dabbing, that is always preferable on its face. And ''if'' we have to dab, we should aim for as short a name as possible. There's no reason to move away from "Dalek (Resolution)" if we're going to keep it dabbed anyway.
+::::But what strikes me about the actual script of ''[[Revolution of the Daleks (TV story)|Revolution of the Daleks]]'' is that it has the individual be called "the Reconnaissance Dalek" or "the Recon Dalek" in dialogue, while ''it'' refers to its ''variant'' as "reconnaissance scout" in dialogue. The variant is never called "Reconnaissance Dalek", and the individual is never called "the reconnaissance scout". So I think the distinction ''is'' there, even if it's subtle. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:55, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+::::: Very well argued. I agree with [[User:Scrooge MacDuck]]'s proposal. Indeed, if we're given a proper name for something, even a nickname, it is preferable to dabbing. In this case, we follow the script: Reconnaissance Dalek and reconnaissance scout (Dalek reconnaissance scout ''if'' recon scout is ever used as a term for a non-Dalek).{{User:SOTO/sig}} 02:49, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+::::Can I ask, at the risk of seeming ignorant, what dabbing is, and why it's often avoided in page names? Although I do agree with [[User:Scrooge MacDuck]]'s proposal. [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:33, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+:: "Dabbing" is Wiki-talk for "disambiguating", and "dab term" for "disambiguation term". For example, the page [[Father (The Story So Far...)]] is ''dabbed'' because there are other Fathers in the DWU and we can't have it at [[Father]]. Our usage of the term, for the record, predates the memetic dance move. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:39, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+::: Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. In that case, yeah, the name changes you proposed make sense. [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:56, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+::I know this discussion's kind of over, but I just wondered something. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck]] previously argued that one reason to go with the name "Reconnaissance Dalek" is because it's referred to in [[Revolution of the Daleks (TV story)|Revolution of the Daleks]] as the "Recon Dalek", with "Recon" merely being an abbreviation of "Reconnaissance".
+::In [[Resolution (TV story)|Resolution]], the Doctor, when confronting the Recon Dalek, uses the term "Recon scout Daleks" to refer to the [[Reconnaissance scout]] species, and then states immediately afterwards "humanity bands together, vanquishes you", which can be seen as her using the term "Recon scout Dalek" to refer to the ''individual'' Recon Dalek as well.
+::If "Reconnaissance Dalek" is a valid name because "Recon" is an abbreviation of "Reconnaissance", then is it possible for the term "Reconnaissance scout Dalek" to technically be a valid name as well? I can understand wanting to perhaps stick with the name "Reconnaissance Dalek" for the individual so as to avoid disambiguation (as the alternative name would be "Reconnaissance scout Dalek (Resolution), but perhaps it's a more specific term for the species than [[Reconnaissance scout]]. I know this is a query referring to the species more than the individual, but given that the name discussion's on this talk page, it seemed more appropriate to raise the question here. [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
+::: It's a fair question, but I direct you to [[Talk:Reconnaissance scout]] where it has in fact already been addressed. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)