Talk:Gray (Adam): Difference between revisions

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 This page needs an image of Gray as a child (like one from in one of Jack's flashbacks in Adam and Exit Wounds). [[User:TroopDude|TroopDude]] <sup>[[User talk:TroopDude|talk to me]]</sup> 20:32, April 24, 2012 (UTC)
-== Is Jack Harkness' brother, Grey, dead? ==
+== Full name ==
-*Spoilers*
+I understand that we've given Gray the surname "Thane" based on his brother's full name '''Javic Piotr Thane''' as revealed in ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[Month 25 (audio story)|Month 25]]'', ''[[R&J (audio story)|R&J]]''). However, is it clear in those audios which parts of "Jack"'s original name are which? Do the people of the Boeshane Peninsula even share family names with eachother? Are they the Javic family, the Javic Piotr family, the Piotr Thane family, or the Thane family, or some other combination? Is one of "Jack"'s three names his mother's forename? Does he have one family name from each parent? If so, which is which? There are too many posibilities to imagine, and yet we seem to have made an assumption that Thane is "Jack"'s (sole) family name and therefore Gray must share it. That might be true if they were of English and/or American heritage, but not of they were of almost any other heritage. I propose that neither "Jack" not Gray nor Franklin are assigned the surname Thane unless they are given it in a reliable source. [[User:CdeDBD|DBD]] [[User talk:CdeDBD|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
+:Well argued. This makes sense. Let's wait and see if anyone objects to a rename.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 17:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
+::I don't object to the rename ''per se''; by a classic interpretation of [[T:NPOV]] I think you're right that the Wiki shouldn't assume that's how Boeshane Peninsula names work.
+::That being said, I want it on the record that I'm… 75% sure our current parsing of the name "Javic Piotr Thane" is the intended one. "Javic" was clearly picked because it resembles "Jack", which is Jack's first name in his commonly-used ''Jack Harkness'' alias. Meanwhile, "Piotr" is a common first name, while "Thane" [[wikipedia:Thane (name)|is an extant Scottish surname and given name]]. The fact that the two recognisable names out of the three are Western names makes it unlikely that we're meant to parse it as reflecting a "foreign", inverted naming scheme; and that impression is strengthened by the Javic/Jack parallels. Ergo, I am fairly sure the intended reading was what most viewers (and as it turns out editors) defaulted to: "Javic" as first name, "Piotr" as middle name, "Thane" as last name.
+::Conversely, I would also like to mention that even if Thane ''is'' taken to be Jack's family name, there's no guarantee that Gray and Franklin would share it, is there? Maybe Thane was Javic's mother's maiden name or something. The naming of "Gray Thane" would be speculative even if we were 100% certain that "Thane" was a last name. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
+:::@[[User:Scrooge MacDuck]] makes a good point; but I think ultimately NPOV would prescribe a move, so I'm going to be BOLD and see what happens. [[User:CdeDBD|DBD]] [[User talk:CdeDBD|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:40, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
+:: This is not to say your interpretation of [[T:NPOV]] is incorrect, but @[[User:CdeDBD|CdeDBD]], please note that on this Wiki, only administrators are allowed to close active talk page discussions, or indeed to enact page moves, so I've reverted your actions for the time being for procedural reasons. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:14, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
-In the TV show 'Torchwood' jack froze his brother in the Torchwood morgue. The Torchwood hub later was exploded and destroyed in 'Children of Earth'. Does this mean that Grey is dead? Or can it be presumed that somehow he survived?
+:No valid source has ''ever'' stated that Gray's last name is Thane, nor has Gray appeared since Jack's name was revealed. Applying Jack's (or rather Javic's) last name to Gray is pure speculation. [[User:Bwburke94|bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 13:55, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
+::: Ok. How does the move happen, then? [[User:CdeDBD|DBD]] [[User talk:CdeDBD|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:57, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
+::::Please put new comments at the '''end''' of the discussion thanks [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:09, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
+:: What Shambala said. And as for how these discussions are closed, well, one of us [[Tardis:Administrators|administrators]] reviews the discussion to see if there is a consensus, and/or if there is an obvious point of policy that's been overlooked and clinches the debate.
+:: In this case, [[User:SOTO]] already made a ruling of sorts, which is that the argument is sound and the rename will be carried out "unless anyone objects to the rename". No one has thus far, so I expect SOTO will come back and complete the move sooner than not. (It should probably be to [[Gray (Adam)]], though, not [[Gray]], because there are other things or people called "Gray" in the DWU.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:19, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
+:::Yep, concluding this. No objections have been raised, and the argument that this is speculation is persuasive. And [[Gray (Adam)]] it shall be.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 22:00, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
+:::: Not an admin, so willing to go by what admins decide, but didn't this page previously go by [[Gray (Fragments)]] before being renamed to [[Grey Thane]]? Wouldn't that be the best choice for it to be returned to? [[User:ThomasRWade|ThomasRWade]] [[User talk:ThomasRWade|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:05, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
+:: ''[[Adam (TV story)|Adam]]'' is currently listed as this character's first appearance in his infobox. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:19, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
+:::I've kept the old redirect, at least for now (need to get my bot out and finish links), but (Adam) is the correct dab term. Even if his first appearance was brief, it was in ''Adam''. Flashbacks still count if it happens to be the first appearance.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 22:41, 8 August 2021 (UTC)