Talk:Cleavis

Why not John?

In Mad Dogs and Englishmen, William Freer calls him "John Cleavis" and his brother Fred calls him "John" several times. Is John later revealed to be a fake name? Amorkuz ☎ 21:11, October 26, 2017 (UTC)

I take it back. The explanation was on the page: a different first name was used in another valid story. However, this is still not a speedy rename. There are various policies that might or might not have bearing on the case. Tardis:Character names dictates to use the first and last name. It also suggests to use the names most commonly used (the exact wording applies to last names only but the intent is clear). Here, it seems that one story calls him John and the other calls him Henry. Not knowing exactly how close the relationship between the two characters is, it's hard to pick a position. For me, the best solution would be to make two pages, given that they exist in different timelines and are called differently. But I'll leave this move to be done by an admin who read both stories. Amorkuz ☎ 22:10, October 26, 2017 (UTC)

'Fellowship of Ink' appears to be largely considered, at least by readers, as part of the Brenda-and-Effie series, in which Prof. Cleavis's name is Henry and its his brother is called John (see Magrs's 'Something Borrowed', 2007). One wonders whether there is sufficient justification for including 'Fellowship' on this wikia? Brenda is included because she appears in a BF audio, but the rest of the books about her are not.86.150.248.55^{talk to me} 16:41, September 14, 2018 (UTC)

Do you mean this Fellowship of Ink? Amorkuz ☎ 17:04, September 14, 2018 (UTC)

Full disclosure: I haven't read every Paul Magrs story, but I'm going to try and reopen this discussion (more to educated myself if not to correct the inconsistencies).

In Fellowship of Ink, set in the 1930s, there are characters named Henry Cleavis and John. It is revealed that the pair are operating under a false narrative that they are brothers, with John likely also taking on the Cleavis surname. Reminding John of their false story Henry states; "You are my younger brother. I have looked after you since you were sixteen when our parents were killed in Switzerland. Keep the story straight". As someone who has not read Mad Dogs and Englishmen is it not possible for John Cleavis to have been Henry's successor who later appeared in stories which covered a time period of the next 40 years.

This could possibly explain why stories set in/before the 1930s feature Henry Cleavis (Spicy Tea and Sympathy, Something Borrowed, etc), but stories after the 1930s feature John Cleavis (Peculiar Lives, Mad Dogs and Englishmen). Then there's To the Devil — a Diva! which complicates matters by not stating Cleavis' name. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 22:57, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

So if I understand you correctly, you mean to say that John assumed Henry Cleavis's identity after a certain point in the 1930s?

If so, that would explain a lot, though it would seem a little off-kilter for Magrs to write something with that much interal continuity, considering the likes of Arthur Korns.

Also, how much of this is stated by the text of the stories, or is this an interpretation from reading between the lines? Either way, it is mighty interesting to perhaps have an answer to Cleavis's shifting name.

Could you provide more details please? I'd really want to examine the possible explanation myself!

Epsilon📯 📂

00:46, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't necessarily mean that John assumed Henry Cleavis' identity, rather that they are seperate individuals who go by the name John Cleavis and Henry Cleavis but share a similar background. Here's the evidence I have:

In Fellowship of Ink Henry Cleavis and John are operating under a false narrative that they are brothers, which suggests that John also has the surname Cleavis. In this story which is set in the early 1930s Henry Cleavis is mentioned to be of a much older age which makes it unlikely that he would still be around for the next 40 years that other stories (which have the character named John Cleavis) are set.

In my opinion it is entirely possible that Henry Cleavis died in the 1930s and John, who also has the surname Cleavis, continued as a professor at the university. This explains why Henry Cleavis' name is used for stories in or before the 1930s and John Cleavis is used after the 1930s. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 02:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Tried to work out a rough timeline to explain my theory.

Fellowship of Ink - 1930s: Henry Cleavis and his student John begin working at Darkholmes university. The pair are operating under the false narrative that they are brothers which suggests John is also using the surname Cleavis.

Spicy Tea and Sympathy/Brenda Has Risen from the Grave - Henry Cleavis has adventures with Reginald Tyler and Brenda.

To the Devil - a Diva! - 1940s: Cleavis appears but is not given a first name.

Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 1940s: John Cleavis is the main name of Professor Cleavis.

Peculiar Lives - 1950s - John Cleavis is mentioned.

It appears too much of a coincidence that Henry Cleavis is used as the character's name for the 1930s but then after that John Cleavis is used. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 02:29, 28 April 2022 (UTC)