Talk:Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT! (webcast): Difference between revisions

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 : So I lean towards this being '''not technically a trailer, but still {{tlx|invalid}} on more general [[Four little rules|Rule 4]] grounds'''. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 21:08, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
+:: Addressing the point about bows being pulled out from thin air... not ''quite''. In the context of Minecraft, every non-NPC (non playable character) has an Inventory - think of it as [[bigger on the inside]] pockets. They didn't pull bows out of thin air, they pulled them out of their Inventories. This is an instance where the ''Star Trek'' principle of acknowledging context of the non-''Doctor Who'' side of a [[crossover]] is necessary. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><code>Epsilon</code></span>]][[doctorwho:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 21:19, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
+::: Sure, but exactly at which point did they acquire Inventories? If we assume that we are looking at the Doctors being pulled into the ''Minecraft'' universe ''à la'' ''[[Assimilation² (comic story)|Assimilation²]]'', it does sort of chafe that the Twelfth Doctor materialises in the ''Minecraft''verse at the beginning, we hardly take our eyes off him, and out of nowhere, he suddenly has an Inventory. Unless I'm missing something, this just isn't trying for self-consistent internal logic. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 21:22, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
+::::My understanding is that [[Friend from the Future (TV story)]] was labeled a trailer? I could be misremembering that - forums are ded. My issue is really the editing and the description box rather than the Minecraft-ness. Like, it's focused on showing off the things in the pack rather than a coherent story, imo. If this was a 15-30 minute long video with voice acting or even a chat box that had a real narrative but it still didn't explain the Minecraft stuff, I'd probably push towards validity. But it's not doing that. It's just showing off the cool skins while running around with gameplay elements. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:24, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
+::::: @[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] Inventories aren't quite material like that, it's a core aspect of the game; you can't ''not'' have one. It's par for the course, it is a staple of the medium. We don't say "According to one account, the [[Twelfth Doctor]] was made of [[LEGO]]. ([[WC]]: ''[[Supergirl Meets E.T. (webcast)|Supergirl Meets E.T.]]'')", we take into account that it not meant to be acknowledge literally, that it's part of the medium. You could instead look at this in a different way, wherein the context of this story, the characters have always had Inventories; we wouldn't invalidate something based on discontinuity and/or establishing something inexplicably.
+::::: There may be merit in discussing whether or not this is supposed to be set in the DWU or the Minecraft world, as nebulous as that is, but my point is that the Doctors having bows isn't something that should necessitate discussion like this. It should not be used as rationale for invalidity. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><code>Epsilon</code></span>]][[doctorwho:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 21:40, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
+::::::: ''[[Friend from the Future (TV story)|Friend from the Future]]'' is actually a somewhat unique, tricky case — the key thing was that footage from it ended up in ''[[The Pilot (TV story)|The Pilot]]'', but edited somewhat differently. The Forum thread's conclusion was that it made the original version akin to the sort of "trailers" that are simply edited clips from an upcoming, fuller story — and the shots unique to the ''FftF'' version of events, "deleted scenes". None of this has a lot of bearing on the breed of arguable-trailers that are made up of unique footage, and indeed, in this case, don't even advertise a specific ''story''.
+::::::: But yes, I think "it's focused on showing off the things in the pack rather than a coherent story" hits the nail on the head. This is sort of narrative, but that feels like accident, almost — it's just not ''coherent'', let alone coherently DWU. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 21:52, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
+Sure, FftF is weird, and I'm not even sure I agree with the ruling. My point is just that that's why I was saying "you don't have to explicitly be called a trailer to be a trailer". [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:59, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
+:: Oh, yes, but ''my'' point was that this only goes for trailers that can be chalked up to the "Next Time"-style "footage from a later, fuller thing" kind of trailer; trailers made up of original footage are a wildly different kettle of fish, with their own jurisprudence. (And even then, ''Friend from the Future'' was only deemed an invalid trailer as an ''ad hoc'' decision at the end of a very lengthy thread!)
+:: Still, as I said, this is all fairly academic since I agree ''Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!'' should be invalid. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 22:03, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
+::: I Wouldn't say it being narrative was an "accident", they clearly knew what they were doing to some extent by having each clip go fairly well into the next. First, the [[Twelfth Doctor]] and [[Clara Oswald|Clara]] arrive atop [[Hill (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a grass hill]] in [[the TARDIS]], and then they split up - Clara goes to [[Jungle 1 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a jungle]] while the Doctor gives chase to the [[The Master#Nemesis of the Third Doctor|"Delgado" Master]] who he sees in [[Fortress (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a fortress]]. Upon entering, he falls into the [[End portal]], seemingly as a form of [[trap]] by the Master, perhaps with the idea that his previous incarnations wouldn't be there to help him defeat the [[Ender Dragon]]. Regardless, the Doctor teams up with his past [[Incarnation|incarnations]] and they defeat the dragon using their [[Bow|bows]]. The Doctor bids farewell to his past incarnations and exits via the portal, popping into existence in front of [[Amy Pond]] and [[Rory Williams]] (which is not only something that makes full sense in the context of ''[[Minecraft (video game)|Minecraft]]'', but also in the context of ''[[Doctor Who]]'' with some classic episodes presenting [[teleportation]] in much the same way), who enter [[House (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a house]]. While [[walking]] towards the house, the Doctor seemingly hears something behind him and looks, only to see [[Silent 1 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a member of the Silence]]. After looking away, he forgets about them, but is met with [[Silent 2 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|another Silent]]. After turning back, he pulls out [[Twelfth Doctor's gold sword|his gold sword]] to do [[Combat|battle]] with the Silent. Meanwhile, in the house, Amy and Rory face [[Weeping Angel 1 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a Weeping Angel]], which moves towards them as the lights flicker. When they attempt to exit, they're faced with [[Weeping Angel 2 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|another angel]] (they seemingly escape by, for example, breaking out of the house, which again makes sense not only in ''Minecraft'', but to an extent in ''Doctor Who'' or the real world, as someone could, indeed, probably escape a house that way if they have an [[axe]]). In a later scene, the Twelfth Doctor sneaks in front of [[Ice Warrior 1 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|3]] [[Ice Warrior 2 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|Ice]] [[Ice Warrior 3 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|Warriors]] and approaches [[Field (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a field]] filled with [[Nether portal|Nether portals]], out of which [[Red Dalek (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a Red Dalek]], [[Blue Dalek (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a Blue Dalek]], and [[Davros]] exit and begin giving chase to him. The Doctor [[Running|runs]], and meets up with Clara, Amy, and Rory, all of whom have bows. The Doctor and his [[Companion|companions]] then run towards the TARDIS, which begins [[materialising]] in the field. They escape Davros and the Daleks.
+::: And as for the way the story's told, that could be taken as a stylistic choice - an attempt ''is'' made to form some kind of coherent ''Doctor Who'' story, and if it's meant to just be examples of "what you could do in your own world", well, that could easily apply to ''[[Supergirl Meets E.T. (webcast)|Supergirl Meets E.T.]]'' but for [[Wikipedia:Brickfilm|brickfilms]] (albeit with edits adding animated [[Face|faces]]). Overall, I don't believe this story actually does anything to fall afoul of [[T:VALID|our rules for validity]], and authorial intent is ''very'' difficult to gauge in anything outside [[Doctor Who|the main show]] and [[Doctor Who spin-offs|spin-offs]], but I ''could'' be missing something in the rules. [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 09:51, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
+::::If this is a "coherent" narrative, well, this notion of "coherent" is certainly the most dadaist one I've ever heard of. The Master enters and promptly exits a room that happens to have nether brick and a pressure plate, while Twelve enters a structure that also has nether brick and walks through a door into a pit/portal ''without any justification for why he would go in there or any reason for why the Master thought he would go in there or any linking together of these two events''. (I note that the pressure plate is not obviously connected in any way to the end portal or the door Twelve enters. This is just a thing.) The Doctors then team up to kill an endangered species because why not (:>) - no justification is given, and Doctors appear throughout this segment distinct from the ones we first see. Sure, the Doctor goes back to a village, turns around and sees some confession priests, and then Amy and Rory go inside a house where a Weeping Angel moves to cut them off rather than just touch them. Sure, I'm not sure these two sections constitute a coherent narrative amongst each other, let alone with the larger story, but I'll grant that in their own right they're vaguely narrative and coherent for sake of argument. But then we completely jump to a different scene with Ice Warriors disconnected from anything else, and then we forget all about them to talk about Daleks. And somehow Clara, Rory, and Amy met up? Every single plot point ''aside'' from  Clara being separated from the Doctor and the End detour is unresolved. (Not that this disqualifies something from being a story, but it should give us pause.) We don't even know why Rory and Amy join up with Twelve. Every single enemy is disconnected from the larger plot and story except perhaps the End Dragon. Like. I struggle to see the justification for seeing this as narrative that isn't just one big application of the Kuleshov effect. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:25, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
+:::::Gonna have to agree that I lean towards this being invalid. Saying it has a narrative is dubious, and whether or not you think it's a "trailer" I don't at all think this is meant to be set in the DWU. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
+:::::: Well, the way I took it, [[The Master#Nemesis of the Third Doctor|the Master]] was, I suppose, trying to lure [[Twelfth Doctor|the Doctor]] into the room so that he'd fall into the [[End portal]] and, in a sense, "''be out of his [[hair]]''". The pressure plates are not connected to the portal, but it's very possible the the Master, well... ''walked around it''. With the Doctors teaming up to [[kill]] [[Ender Dragon|a living creature]], various valid stories have previously featured the Doctor in a similar role (notably, ''[[Master of Spiders (comic story)|Master of Spiders]]'', where [[Second Doctor|the Doctor]] says "[[die]], hideous [[creature]], die!"). The part with the [[Ice Warriors]] and [[Daleks]] could well be taken as a "second story" being told within the confines of one [[webcast]], and the Ice Warriors' role could certainly be taken as a "[[Wikipedia:Cameo appearance|cameo appearance]]". It's also possible that [[Amy Pond|Amy]] and [[Rory Williams|Rory]] had, at some point prior, met the Twelfth Doctor, or heard of him, whether from [[Clara Oswald|Clara]] of otherwise (there's probably stories featuring 12 alongside Amy and Rory in some way, regardless). And again, I don't think it's that easy to gauge authorial intent [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:24, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
+But this account of what the Master is doing makes absolutely no sense, again because ''neither the Doctor nor the Master ever see each other''. I'm not sure what this "walking around it" business is, but the floor around the door the Master goes through is not the same as the floor around the door Twelve walks through. They're just completely different doors and we have no idea how they're supposed to be related except that there's nether brick. As for the Dragon issue, well, you rather took my joking comment too seriously there, hence the ":>". The idea that there's a coherent story being told at all is suspect, let alone that there's two. You seem to have focused on the fact that there are Ice Warriors and Daleks as my objection and these facts are irrelevant to the larger plot. I mean, this can be a consideration, but the issue I have is that we're thrown head first into ''scenes'' containing them without any explanation from the narrative and then removed from those scenes just as fast. Indeed, you don't even try to explain this.
+:'''In a later scene''', the Twelfth Doctor sneaks in front of [[Ice Warrior 1 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|3]] [[Ice Warrior 2 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|Ice]] [[Ice Warrior 3 (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|Warriors]] and approaches [[Field (Doctor Who Comes to MINECRAFT!)|a field]] [Emphasis my own] [Also note that the idea that Twelve is approaching a field is present nowhere in the video - you simply infer it from the fact that the next scene places him in a field]
+Again, this attempt to divine a narrative is just one big bag of guesswork. As for authorial intent, I will once again reiterate that the first sentence of the description is
+: We are very excited to announce that Doctor Who will be coming to Minecraft officially!
+I think it's fairly clear that ''prima facie'' the story should be regarded as invalid and perhaps when the forums come back up we can discuss it then, adding it to [[User:Najawin/Sandbox 5| The List]] or something until then. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:07, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
+: The statement in the description stating that ''[[Doctor Who]]'' would be coming to ''[[Minecraft (video game)|Minecraft]]'' is the kind of thing any announcement video is likely to include; similarly, part of ''[[Supergirl Meets E.T. (webcast)|Supergirl Meets E.T.]]''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s description reads:
+:: ''Find out which two heroes will be joining the fight against evil-doers, criminals, and just bad dudes in the LEGO® DIMENSIONS™ Multiverse this September!
+Starting in September 2016, LEGO DIMENSIONS Starter Packs for the Sony PlayStation® 4 will include an exclusive, bonus DC Comics Supergirl LEGO minifigure for a limited time!''
+: While the wording's certainly ''different'', it's similar in that it's announcing upcoming content for a [[crossover]] video game. [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:12, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
+::I think you're rather obscuring the issue here my friend, [[Supergirl Meets E.T. (webcast)]]'s synopsis ''begins'' with
+:::Two beings from space. Both adopted into normal Earthling families. Both have conquered the power of flight. Both masters of disguise. Only one is like, really obsessed with phones.
+::It's only at the ''end'' that it switches to this announcement style description. Not only does the BBC description begin with
+:::We are very excited to announce that Doctor Who will be coming to Minecraft officially!
+::''The entire description is one about the pack rather than the supposed narrative you've constructed regarding the video.'' So, sure, it's similar in that there is '''a''' description in the description box related to upcoming video game content, but it's different in that in one of them there's more than that, and in the other that's all there is.
+::Of course, this is just a challenge to it failing rule 4, which is somewhat moot because it also fails rule 1. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:53, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
+::: In terms of rule 1, this is objectively ''a'' story. Perhaps not the most well-written one, but it has a followable narrative, at least to me. [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:41, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
+::::I'm not sure you know what the word "objectively" means. At best this is ''intersubjectively'' a story, since stories can't exist without agents to tell/create them. But let's just grant for sake of argument that there's a narrative you and you alone can decipher. That does us no good, the wiki is governed through consensus. So it's incumbent on you to argue for this narrative. But you're not adequately doing so. I note that I don't think this is your fault, I simply don't think such a thing is possible, the problems with the Master and Ice Warrior sections, in particular, are far too large to resolve. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:59, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
+::::: Not sure if you even watched it at this point... [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:39, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
+[[T:FAITH]]. And given that I've talked about the video in ''more detail than you have'' (see, again, the Master section), this is an absurd comment. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:56, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
+:I'm just going to note here that on [[Talk:You Are The Absurd Hero (short story)|You Are The Absurd Hero]] Scrooge said that the intent behind his above statement was that the story should be seen as prima facie invalid. I haven't gotten around to making the relevant edits until now, since I've forgotten how we categorize non-DWU things and I didn't want to look it up. But I'm doing it now. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)