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Forum:Temporary forums/Subpage policy (view source)
Revision as of 20:02, 10 October 2022
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It's simple: when a page grows too big, consider splitting it using subpages! | It's simple: when a page grows too big, consider splitting it using subpages! | ||
=== When to | === When to create a subpage === | ||
Subpages are usually only meant to be linked to from their root page and navigation templates. For instance, [[Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances]] is [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances|only linked to]] from [[Twelfth Doctor]] and {{tlx|Doctor appearances}}, making it an obvious candidate for a subpage. | Subpages are usually only meant to be linked to from their root page and navigation templates. For instance, [[Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances]] is [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances|only linked to]] from [[Twelfth Doctor]] and {{tlx|Doctor appearances}}, making it an obvious candidate for a subpage. | ||
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Alternately, if you think some material represents a self-contained idea that other articles might want to reference as well, consider splitting it without using subpages. For instance, when conflicting accounts of the Doctor's origins on [[First Doctor#Life on Gallifrey]] became too unwieldy, I created [[The Doctor's early life]]. Other examples include pages for specific eras in the Doctor's life, like [[Exile on Earth]], or pages for specific events, like [[Operation Mannequin]]. This decision is an art, not a science, and experienced users should use their best judgment to decide how to group content together into logical topics. | Alternately, if you think some material represents a self-contained idea that other articles might want to reference as well, consider splitting it without using subpages. For instance, when conflicting accounts of the Doctor's origins on [[First Doctor#Life on Gallifrey]] became too unwieldy, I created [[The Doctor's early life]]. Other examples include pages for specific eras in the Doctor's life, like [[Exile on Earth]], or pages for specific events, like [[Operation Mannequin]]. This decision is an art, not a science, and experienced users should use their best judgment to decide how to group content together into logical topics. | ||
Here are some examples of | Here are some examples of when ''not'' to use a subpage: | ||
* [[Third Doctor/Exile on Earth]] – instead create [[Third Doctor/Biography]] or [[Exile on Earth]] | * [[Third Doctor/Exile on Earth]] – instead create [[Third Doctor/Biography]] or [[Exile on Earth]] | ||
* [[The Doctor/Sonic screwdriver]] – instead create [[The Doctor's sonic screwdriver]] | * [[The Doctor/Sonic screwdriver]] – instead create [[The Doctor's sonic screwdriver]] | ||
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For instance, [[Tenth Doctor#Appearance]] is a lengthy section that details each of the Tenth Doctor's various clothing and hairstyle changes. If this information were moved to a subpage, the summary would describe his major outfits – for instance, those worn on television or for an entire comics run or Big Finish boxset – and any particularly notable minor outfits, such as his lei from ''[[The End of Time (TV story)|The End of Time]]''. | For instance, [[Tenth Doctor#Appearance]] is a lengthy section that details each of the Tenth Doctor's various clothing and hairstyle changes. If this information were moved to a subpage, the summary would describe his major outfits – for instance, those worn on television or for an entire comics run or Big Finish boxset – and any particularly notable minor outfits, such as his lei from ''[[The End of Time (TV story)|The End of Time]]''. | ||
Note the Editor Experience team's emphasis on a summary being "spoiler-free". While this might not be possible in some circumstances, ideally a new fan should be able to read through the summary of a character's biography without having the experience of the | Note the Editor Experience team's emphasis on a summary being "spoiler-free". While this might not be possible in some circumstances, ideally a new fan should be able to read through the summary of a character's biography without having the experience of the stories being totally spoiled for them. For example, a summary of [[Twelfth Doctor/Biography]] might mention that his travels with Bill, Nardole, and Missy concluded in [[TV]]: ''[[The Doctor Falls (TV story)|The Doctor Falls]]'' during an encounter with {{Simm|n=an old enemy}}, without explicitly spelling out that enemy's identity or the circumstances of Bill's fate. Like a lead paragraph, a well-written summary should "lead" its readers to want to learn more, whether that means clicking through to the subpage or actually experiencing the stories in question. | ||
== Applications == | == Applications == | ||
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Additionally, a subpage can also be linked to from its parent page with only a partial title: if you're on [[Twelfth Doctor]], the link <code><nowiki>[[/List of appearances]]</nowiki></code> will take you to [[Twelfth Doctor/List of appearances]]. It's even more powerful than the pipe trick! | Additionally, a subpage can also be linked to from its parent page with only a partial title: if you're on [[Twelfth Doctor]], the link <code><nowiki>[[/List of appearances]]</nowiki></code> will take you to [[Twelfth Doctor/List of appearances]]. It's even more powerful than the pipe trick! | ||
Our lists of appearances aren't our only subpage-like pages. We also have [[:Category:Galleries|almost 100 "galleries"]] | |||
Our lists of appearances aren't our only subpage-like pages. We also have [[:Category:Galleries|almost 100 "galleries"]] which function just like subpages; most of them are even already linked from story or series pages with {{tlx|main}}. Their form should follow their function: [[BBC New Series Adventures covers]] should be moved to [[BBC New Series Adventures/Covers]] without hesitation. | |||
I'm willing to bet that there are more examples, too. These are the low-hanging fruit when it comes to integrating subpages onto the wiki! | |||
=== Story summaries === | === Story summaries === | ||
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<div class="tech"> | <div class="tech"> | ||
== Summary == | == Summary == | ||
A brief, non-spoilery teaser that someone could use to check if they're interested in a story. If a publisher's summary is provided, this is where it would go, in which case the section is called "Publisher's summary". | A brief, non-spoilery teaser that someone could use to check if they're interested in a story. If a publisher's summary is provided, this is where it would go, in which case the section is called "Publisher's summary". In rare cases where a great many publisher's summaries have been provided, such as ''[[Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure with the Daleks (novelisation)|Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure with the Daleks]]'', this section may have a <code><nowiki>{{Main|/Publisher's summary}}</nowiki></code> link. | ||
== Plot == | == Plot == | ||
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Subpages would solve both problems. Biographies which are too long by Shambala's standard can be moved to subpages, rather than deleted outright; and the <code><nowiki>{{Main|/Subpage}}</nowiki> + Summary</code> method would unlock far larger potential reductions in page length. | Subpages would solve both problems. Biographies which are too long by Shambala's standard can be moved to subpages, rather than deleted outright; and the <code><nowiki>{{Main|/Subpage}}</nowiki> + Summary</code> method would unlock far larger potential reductions in page length. | ||
As mentioned in my above summary writing guide, | As mentioned in my above summary writing guide, the information in a summary should be prioritised based on its relevance to the [[not we]]. To use [[Tenth Doctor#Biography]] as an example, a summary would mention all of the Tenth Doctor and [[Martha Jones]]' televised adventures but maybe not all of their more minor ones, such as [[PROSE]]: ''[[Wetworld (novel)|Wetworld]]'' or [[COMIC]]: ''[[The Skrawn Inheritance (comic story)|The Skrawn Inheritance]]''; it would mention the Tenth Doctor's companions [[Gabby Gonzalez]] and [[Cindy Wu]] from [[COMIC]]: ''[[Doctor Who: The Tenth Doctor]]'' but maybe not more minor companions such as [[Emily Parr]] or [[Rok Ma]]. | ||
I've received some pushback for this, but the reason we have rules like [[T:NPOV]] is because long ago we judged they were the best way to serve DWU fans as a wiki, ''not'' because promoting non-TV content is one of our priorities. Our purpose | I've received some pushback for this part of the proposal, but the reason we have rules like [[T:NPOV]] is because long ago we judged they were the best way to serve DWU fans as a wiki, ''not'' because promoting non-TV content is one of our priorities. Our entire purpose is to cover DWU-related stories and concepts as they exist, in whatever way will best serve DWU fans; [[T:NPOV]] doesn't and shouldn't prevent us from realistically assessming what information is most relevant to readers. | ||
This guideline has implications for lead paragraphs, as well. [[Peter Capaldi]] himself had [[User:NateBumber/Capaldi interview|such a hard time]] finding relevant information in our article on [[The Beatles]] that he ultimately gave up! I've since [[Special:Diff/3099699|fixed the issue]] | This guideline has implications for lead paragraphs, as well. [[Peter Capaldi]] himself had [[User:NateBumber/Capaldi interview|such a hard time]] finding relevant information in our article on [[The Beatles]] that he ultimately gave up! I've since [[Special:Diff/3099699|fixed the issue]] with that specific page by moving information about [[TV]]: ''[[The Chase (TV story)|The Chase]]'' from its 14th paragraph to its 2nd, but applying this approach more widely across the wiki would be huge for general usability. | ||
=== Miscellaneous other cases === | === Miscellaneous other cases === | ||
[[Chris Cwej's Superiors]] is one of many pages which shoehorn every once-used alternate name into the lead paragraph. These names do belong in the article, but the place for them is a "Name" section, such as we see on many Wikipedia pages; the actual lead paragraph should only mention the two or three more prominent names at most. For some cases where the naming discussion is particularly difficult, however, it might be appropriate to expand it into a subpage. [[Aliases of the Doctor]] represents an edge case here; due to its length and the fact that it's mostly linked through redirects, it might qualify for splitting into separate pages for individual aliases, such as [[Time's Champion]] and [[Time Lord Victorious]]. | * One of the biggest advantages of subpages is that they provide more room for not just ordinary coverage but also specific templates and sections. Subpages like [[Tenth Doctor/Appearance]] could have their own "Behind the scenes" sections discussing real-world information related to the topic. | ||
* [[Chris Cwej's Superiors]] is one of many pages which shoehorn every once-used alternate name into the lead paragraph. These names do belong in the article, but the place for them is a "Name" section, such as we see on many Wikipedia pages; the actual lead paragraph should only mention the two or three more prominent names at most. For some cases where the naming discussion is particularly difficult, however, it might be appropriate to expand it into a subpage. [[Aliases of the Doctor]] represents an edge case here; due to its length and the fact that it's mostly linked through redirects, it might qualify for splitting into separate pages for individual aliases, such as [[Time's Champion]] and [[Time Lord Victorious]]. | |||
== Comments == | == Comments == | ||
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I didn't come to read the new version of this to be personally attacked. Wow. | I didn't come to read the new version of this to be personally attacked. Wow. | ||
I think splitting off plot summaries is something that could work, but I personally am very strongly against any split of TV/EU stuff, as I am with rewriting the pages to put it into the lead. Obviously this would come up in the forum discussions about it though. :> [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC) | I think splitting off plot summaries is something that could work, but I personally am very strongly against any split of TV/EU stuff, as I am with rewriting the pages to put it into the lead. Obviously this would come up in the forum discussions about it though. :> [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC) | ||
:I hear your objection to prioritisation of TV content loud and clear. Obviously it's only a matter which would apply to "TV first" characters with extremely long pages – mainly the Doctors and their companions – so it wouldn't affect the pages which you and I are most fond of editing. But hopefully [[Special:Diff/3099698]] isn't really ''so'' objectionable? I'm, uhh, rather hoping this can get done without needing the forums – which is to say, that it can get done ''ever'' – so please do respond. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 17:31, 4 October 2022 (UTC) | :I hear your objection to prioritisation of TV content loud and clear. Obviously it's only a matter which would apply to "TV first" characters with extremely long pages – mainly the Doctors and their companions – so it wouldn't affect the pages which you and I are most fond of editing. But hopefully [[Special:Diff/3099698]] isn't really ''so'' objectionable? I'm, uhh, rather hoping this can get done without needing the forums – which is to say, that it can get done ''ever'' – so please do respond. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 17:31, 4 October 2022 (UTC) | ||
:I've added sections explicitly addressing these concerns using the examples of [[Tenth Doctor#Appearance]] and [[Tenth Doctor#Biography]], btw. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 19:16, 4 October 2022 (UTC) | :I've added sections explicitly addressing these concerns using the examples of [[Tenth Doctor#Appearance]] and [[Tenth Doctor#Biography]], btw. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 19:16, 4 October 2022 (UTC) | ||
::I think a better example to illustrate my qualms is [[Sutekh]]. This is an article with a substantial amount of EU content that's arguably integral page as we've written it. I ''cannot imagine'' that it's acceptable to rewrite this page to focus on the TV appearances of this character, or even what such a rewrite to this page could look like. Thankfully, this is one instance where the issue of subpages to trim excess content doesn't yet seem relevant, but the basic issue here is the same. It seems bizarre to me that, say, [[Anne Travers]], could have her article rewritten to focus on a single story she appeared in on TV - were it to get too long. (Yes I did find a random character that Candy Jar was using, why do you ask?) Or even [[Kate Stewart]], a character that originated in non BBC media, has an extensive life outside of the BBC show, whose rights are owned by someone other than the BBC. Her page is ''reasonably'' large. It's 211 on [[Special:LongPages]]. Which isn't super up there, but isn't nothing either. ([[Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart]] meets two of those three criteria! And his is 38 on LongPages!) | ::I think a better example to illustrate my qualms is [[Sutekh]]. This is an article with a substantial amount of EU content that's arguably integral page as we've written it. I ''cannot imagine'' that it's acceptable to rewrite this page to focus on the TV appearances of this character, or even what such a rewrite to this page could look like. Thankfully, this is one instance where the issue of subpages to trim excess content doesn't yet seem relevant, but the basic issue here is the same. It seems bizarre to me that, say, [[Anne Travers]], could have her article rewritten to focus on a single story she appeared in on TV - were it to get too long. (Yes I did find a random character that Candy Jar was using, why do you ask?) Or even [[Kate Stewart]], a character that originated in non BBC media, has an extensive life outside of the BBC show, whose rights are owned by someone other than the BBC. Her page is ''reasonably'' large. It's 211 on [[Special:LongPages]]. Which isn't super up there, but isn't nothing either. ([[Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart]] meets two of those three criteria! And his is 38 on LongPages!) | ||
::Perhaps it's an ideological issue for me and we'll just never agree. But this change seems counterproductive, in violation of both the spirit and the letter of [[T:NPOV]]. It seems like it provides fodder for those in the fanbase who want to relegate the expanded universe material to a second class status (though, of course, I know you don't intend this), which I'm ''strongly'' against, and the fact that Doctor Who doesn't do this is part of why I'm here. | ::Perhaps it's an ideological issue for me and we'll just never agree. But this change seems counterproductive, in violation of both the spirit and the letter of [[T:NPOV]]. It seems like it provides fodder for those in the fanbase who want to relegate the expanded universe material to a second class status (though, of course, I know you don't intend this), which I'm ''strongly'' against, and the fact that Doctor Who doesn't do this is part of why I'm here. | ||
::But in all honesty I don't think this is the best way to help our users. What is the problem we're trying to solve? We want a way for people to find out what information comes from what sources easily, if they wish to do so, on mobile, quickly, where they might lack cmd+f, without privileging TV sources. Is there a way to do this? I think there has to be - and I think giving up and privileging TV sources is defeatist, no offense meant. | ::But in all honesty I don't think this is the best way to help our users. What is the problem we're trying to solve? We want a way for people to find out what information comes from what sources easily, if they wish to do so, on mobile, quickly, where they might lack cmd+f, without privileging TV sources. Is there a way to do this? I think there has to be - and I think giving up and privileging TV sources is defeatist, no offense meant. | ||
::I'd like to propose an alternative. A change to [[T:BOLD]]. See [[User:Najawin/sandbox]]. I think this change makes it ''substantially'' easier for a user to scroll down a page looking for "TV" as a source for a statement. If need be, we might also float a proposal that prefixes be resized slightly. But I think this option is more in keeping with [[T:NPOV]], can be automated by a bot, and serves the [[not we]] reasonably well, if not better. (Though I admit the last bit is a matter of ideological debate.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC) | ::I'd like to propose an alternative. A change to [[T:BOLD]]. See [[User:Najawin/sandbox]]. I think this change makes it ''substantially'' easier for a user to scroll down a page looking for "TV" as a source for a statement. If need be, we might also float a proposal that prefixes be resized slightly. But I think this option is more in keeping with [[T:NPOV]], can be automated by a bot, and serves the [[not we]] reasonably well, if not better. (Though I admit the last bit is a matter of ideological debate.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC) | ||
:::Defeatist? Bah! Humbug! | :::Defeatist? Bah! Humbug! | ||
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: This isn't really the place to start discussing my template, but, to answer your concerns, the issues with SMW and performance that CzechOut mentions are now completely irrelevant. Not only was he actually misinformed to begin with (based my on discussions with other Fandom staff and wiki representatives), but one of my main priorities was optimising performance to the point that I got an extension enabled on this wiki to especially for this purpose. SMW will only be used rarely as a last resort backup. As for screen readers, I have tried testing this for myself but I do not use a screen reader so really struggled to test it. The one I used had quite a high learning curve! Ideally, someone who uses one regularly could help with testing. If there is a problem, I think that I have a solution that wouldn't be hard to implement. <br /> | : This isn't really the place to start discussing my template, but, to answer your concerns, the issues with SMW and performance that CzechOut mentions are now completely irrelevant. Not only was he actually misinformed to begin with (based my on discussions with other Fandom staff and wiki representatives), but one of my main priorities was optimising performance to the point that I got an extension enabled on this wiki to especially for this purpose. SMW will only be used rarely as a last resort backup. As for screen readers, I have tried testing this for myself but I do not use a screen reader so really struggled to test it. The one I used had quite a high learning curve! Ideally, someone who uses one regularly could help with testing. If there is a problem, I think that I have a solution that wouldn't be hard to implement. <br /> | ||
: On the topic of asking for feedback, good luck with that. [[User:Bongolium500/cite source/reader feedback|I tried asking for some for my template]] and got very little. It's hard to make changes that help readers when readers don't want to give feedback... [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:18, 5 October 2022 (UTC) | : On the topic of asking for feedback, good luck with that. [[User:Bongolium500/cite source/reader feedback|I tried asking for some for my template]] and got very little. It's hard to make changes that help readers when readers don't want to give feedback... [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:18, 5 October 2022 (UTC) | ||
::I'm glad to hear it! I really do like the template. iirc Epsilon edits on mobile? He made a lot of comments about it during the migration to UCP. And, yeah, getting feedback is hard, but Nate has some advantages here given the communities he has his fingers in. If he wants to do it, of course. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC) | ::I'm glad to hear it! I really do like the template. iirc Epsilon edits on mobile? He made a lot of comments about it during the migration to UCP. And, yeah, getting feedback is hard, but Nate has some advantages here given the communities he has his fingers in. If he wants to do it, of course. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC) | ||
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{{quote|Give all media equal weight; television episodes are not "better sources" than comic strips or audios.}} | {{quote|Give all media equal weight; television episodes are not "better sources" than comic strips or audios.}} | ||
:::implies that allowing "notable minor appearances" (ie, TV minor appearances being privileged, and then we toss in other things we think are notable) isn't allowed. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:06, 6 October 2022 (UTC) | :::implies that allowing "notable minor appearances" (ie, TV minor appearances being privileged, and then we toss in other things we think are notable) isn't allowed. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:06, 6 October 2022 (UTC) | ||
::::As you said: agree to disagree! – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 20:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Footnotes == | == Footnotes == | ||
{{reflist}} | {{reflist}} | ||