Talk:Season 23 (Doctor Who 1963): Difference between revisions
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:::: Badly worded, yes. But nevertheless he meant that we don’t consider them each an individually numbered serial. The dab term TV story covers every single one of the TV stories, multi-part of not. One part of a multi-parter is still a TV story and therefore should have the dab TV story. Clearly you misinterpreted it as meaning that we should seperate each story. We should not. They are still a single story. And '''that''' is how they have been considered since forever. And yes, that accounts for ''Flux'' too. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:30, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | :::: Badly worded, yes. But nevertheless he meant that we don’t consider them each an individually numbered serial. The dab term TV story covers every single one of the TV stories, multi-part of not. One part of a multi-parter is still a TV story and therefore should have the dab TV story. Clearly you misinterpreted it as meaning that we should seperate each story. We should not. They are still a single story. And '''that''' is how they have been considered since forever. And yes, that accounts for ''Flux'' too. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:30, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | ||
::::: I don't think it's for us to say that Scrooge meant something that he did not say. [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:32, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | ::::: I don't think it's for us to say that Scrooge meant something that he did not say. [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:32, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | ||
: I meant precisely what I said: that we consider [[The Mysterious Planet (TV story)]] a story and have done from the start. We just… objectively do. It has a story page (individual episodes of serials e.g. ''[[The Feast of Steven]]'' do not), and its dab term says "story". It's also fairly ''intuitively'' a story in the [[T:VS]] sense — things definitely happen in it. We wouldn't throw it out for "not being a story" if ''The Mysterious Planet'' had somehow come into existence without the other ''Trial'' installments attached. ''The Mysterious Planet'' is "a story" — unless the proposal is to merge all the installments into one giant page (bad idea, IMO!), I don't see that changing. | |||
: Whether we can, from this, derive that ''Trial'' as a whole is ''not'' a story… I don't know. It seems to me that for a weird case like this, we ''could'' say that we have "a story made up of stories". But despite the quotes helpfully located in the above discussion, I don't think the Wiki's current policy on ''this'' point is in fact clear/consistent. To wit… well, the page is called [[Season 23]], not [[The Trial of a Time Lord (TV story)|''The Trial of a Time Lord'' (TV story)]]. That's pretty evidence that, ''de facto'', we cover it as a season rather than a story! But as I said, this does conflict wit a few of the statements located above, so I'm game to treat that aspect of the matter as not yet settled, and to use this talk page to nail it down more clearly. | |||
: As regards story numbering, my personal opinion is that we should dispense with it entirely as a fundamentally confused, inherently-contradictory endeavour, and, by and large, a thuddingly useless one at that. I… recognise that this is perhaps a radical point of view, but I hope the fact that we're still arguing abour ''Trial'' numbering forty years on will give some people a sense of why I feel that way. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 14:02, 10 January 2023
Season format
This season is described as having a unique format because the entire season consisted of a single story. However, in spite of being titled as a single story in 14 parts, there are clearly 4 distinct stories and an overarching story for the entire season. This means the season actually bears more similarity to Season 16 and even Season 8 than it does to Children of Earth and Miracle Day; as the two Torchwood seasons did not have "sub-stories". Craigysa ☎ 19:03, January 1, 2014 (UTC)
- It may have been filmed as four distinctive tales, but the story of the trial is so overarching that I would call it a single one. Season 16 doesn't even mention the Key much in some of its tales - The Androids of Tara (TV story) for example. --Silent Hunter UK ☎ 17:38, January 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Every single sub-story in Season 16 involves retrieval of a segment and the difficulties retrieving them. In some cases character decisions are specifically guided by the goal of obtaining the segment. By contrast, The Trial of a Time Lord is in fact less overarching, with the Trial simply tacked-on... In the first 3 stories, you could simply delete the court-room scenes, and each story would be a self-contained, standalone adventure. So there are clearly distinct stories within the season; whereas the aforementioned Torchwood seasons have absolutely no distinct sub-stories. Craigysa ☎ 10:44, January 5, 2014 (UTC)
"Four separate stories"?
The Bluray box set for Season 23 only lists one story - "The Trial of a Time Lord". Fan and production consensus has listed the season as one complete serial since 8,000 BC. Why has this changed? BigRockCola ☎ 07:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- I must have missed that memo. I've always treated it as a "Key to Time" situation. LauraBatham ☎ 07:13, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ongoing discussion at User talk:Scrooge MacDuck, User talk:NateBumber and User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon. Jack made some edits, such as at Joan Sims, with the edit summary saying "We don't consider The Mysterious Planet to be a story". Scrooge told him we do consider it a story, and then there's been a kerfuffle ever since. Najawin ☎ 09:07, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Problem is that Jack has hugely misunderstood it all. Season 23 is a single story and should be treated as such, contrary to Jack's recent edits. Individual parts of a multi-part story are still a story. Season 23 is a convoluted and complicated instance, and we can’t just treat it as one or the other. The entirety of Season 23 is one huge serial, but it has 4 individual stories in it, but these stories are all part of one storyline, namely the Trial of a Time Lord. Danniesen ☎ 09:24, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- The same could be said about Flux. And just to be clear as to why I undid your edit, I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but it is something that requires a discussion, I think. Or at least admin approval. LauraBatham ☎ 09:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah. Flux is the same, although that instance is a lot more obvious as it has "Chapter" attached to each… meaning that it is blatantly obvious that that series is one big story, with individual parts, which are still, individual stories, but needs to be treated as part of the whole Flux event. Danniesen ☎ 09:40, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- As for Season 23, the titles of each of these parts were never actually broadcast on television, which was meant to imply that it was to be seen as one whole serial under 1 title; The Trial of a Time Lord. That we afterwards were treated to 4 individual titles just means that we are able to divide them up, it does not mean they are seperate on the timeline of televised stories, because they are still part of one single story, which is the trial itself. The 4-parts, which themselves are divided into several episodes, are clip shows, if you will. Danniesen ☎ 09:54, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- This page previously said that The Trial of a Time Lord was one story with twelve episodes. The List of Doctor Who television stories said that "It is considered a single story by this wiki". When Scrooge said that we do consider The Mysterious Planet to be its own story and "have since forever", I amended these statements which are clearly irreconcilable with considering The Mysterious Planet, Mindwarp, Terror of the Vervoids and The Ultimate Foe to be individual stories. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 10:04, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- As for Season 23, the titles of each of these parts were never actually broadcast on television, which was meant to imply that it was to be seen as one whole serial under 1 title; The Trial of a Time Lord. That we afterwards were treated to 4 individual titles just means that we are able to divide them up, it does not mean they are seperate on the timeline of televised stories, because they are still part of one single story, which is the trial itself. The 4-parts, which themselves are divided into several episodes, are clip shows, if you will. Danniesen ☎ 09:54, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah. Flux is the same, although that instance is a lot more obvious as it has "Chapter" attached to each… meaning that it is blatantly obvious that that series is one big story, with individual parts, which are still, individual stories, but needs to be treated as part of the whole Flux event. Danniesen ☎ 09:40, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- The same could be said about Flux. And just to be clear as to why I undid your edit, I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but it is something that requires a discussion, I think. Or at least admin approval. LauraBatham ☎ 09:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Problem is that Jack has hugely misunderstood it all. Season 23 is a single story and should be treated as such, contrary to Jack's recent edits. Individual parts of a multi-part story are still a story. Season 23 is a convoluted and complicated instance, and we can’t just treat it as one or the other. The entirety of Season 23 is one huge serial, but it has 4 individual stories in it, but these stories are all part of one storyline, namely the Trial of a Time Lord. Danniesen ☎ 09:24, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ongoing discussion at User talk:Scrooge MacDuck, User talk:NateBumber and User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon. Jack made some edits, such as at Joan Sims, with the edit summary saying "We don't consider The Mysterious Planet to be a story". Scrooge told him we do consider it a story, and then there's been a kerfuffle ever since. Najawin ☎ 09:07, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Quite honestly, I would have asked for clarification. Measure twice cut once, etc. Especially given how, uh, bizarre it would be for us to overlook something this major. Najawin ☎ 10:17, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- That was not what Scrooge said either. Jack has misunderstood the entire situation. He said they are not seperate stories, but they are still each a story. Danniesen ☎ 10:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- "What the devils do you mean, "we don't consider The Mysterious Planet to be a story"? Yes we do. It's right there in the dab term. We have since forever. Perhaps you think we should consider Trial one long serial, but we demonstrably don't; we treat it as a season containing interconnected, but still individually-covered, serials."
- They're interconnected, but individual. Like the dab terms say, they are TV stories. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 10:23, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Also, Tardis:Merging policy says about the episodes of Flux (which it compares to season 23) are "six independent stories which together form a story arc (though marketing might tell us otherwise)." Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 10:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Badly worded, yes. But nevertheless he meant that we don’t consider them each an individually numbered serial. The dab term TV story covers every single one of the TV stories, multi-part of not. One part of a multi-parter is still a TV story and therefore should have the dab TV story. Clearly you misinterpreted it as meaning that we should seperate each story. We should not. They are still a single story. And that is how they have been considered since forever. And yes, that accounts for Flux too. Danniesen ☎ 10:30, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think it's for us to say that Scrooge meant something that he did not say. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 10:32, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Badly worded, yes. But nevertheless he meant that we don’t consider them each an individually numbered serial. The dab term TV story covers every single one of the TV stories, multi-part of not. One part of a multi-parter is still a TV story and therefore should have the dab TV story. Clearly you misinterpreted it as meaning that we should seperate each story. We should not. They are still a single story. And that is how they have been considered since forever. And yes, that accounts for Flux too. Danniesen ☎ 10:30, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Also, Tardis:Merging policy says about the episodes of Flux (which it compares to season 23) are "six independent stories which together form a story arc (though marketing might tell us otherwise)." Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 10:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- I meant precisely what I said: that we consider The Mysterious Planet (TV story) a story and have done from the start. We just… objectively do. It has a story page (individual episodes of serials e.g. The Feast of Steven do not), and its dab term says "story". It's also fairly intuitively a story in the T:VS sense — things definitely happen in it. We wouldn't throw it out for "not being a story" if The Mysterious Planet had somehow come into existence without the other Trial installments attached. The Mysterious Planet is "a story" — unless the proposal is to merge all the installments into one giant page (bad idea, IMO!), I don't see that changing.
- Whether we can, from this, derive that Trial as a whole is not a story… I don't know. It seems to me that for a weird case like this, we could say that we have "a story made up of stories". But despite the quotes helpfully located in the above discussion, I don't think the Wiki's current policy on this point is in fact clear/consistent. To wit… well, the page is called Season 23, not The Trial of a Time Lord (TV story). That's pretty evidence that, de facto, we cover it as a season rather than a story! But as I said, this does conflict wit a few of the statements located above, so I'm game to treat that aspect of the matter as not yet settled, and to use this talk page to nail it down more clearly.
- As regards story numbering, my personal opinion is that we should dispense with it entirely as a fundamentally confused, inherently-contradictory endeavour, and, by and large, a thuddingly useless one at that. I… recognise that this is perhaps a radical point of view, but I hope the fact that we're still arguing abour Trial numbering forty years on will give some people a sense of why I feel that way. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
