Talk:John Hurt (in-universe): Difference between revisions

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Pluto2 moved page Talk:John Hurt (Greeks Bearing Gifts) to Talk:John Hurt (in-universe): Dabbing policy

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+== Delete ==
+Bearing in mind that this is an encyclopaedia containing everything and everyone involved in the DWU, I can understand the need to cover this version of John Hurt. This reference enough is evidence that there's a John Hurt in the DWU, therefore we should cover it. If we delete this, then we can surely have a clear out of a few Tom Bakers that we have lying around.
+To be clear, that was sarcasm. This page has every right to be here.
+[[User:Thefartydoctor|<font color="blue">The</font><font color="silver">Farty</font><font color="red">Doctor</font>]] [[User talk:Thefartydoctor|<small><sup><font color="green">Talk</font></sup></small>]] 21:23, January 29, 2017 (UTC)
+:Valid reason. --[[User:Danniesen|DCLM]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:41, January 29, 2017 (UTC)
+::Maybe the deletion request you placed should be removed. We don't want admins cleaning it up. [[User:Thefartydoctor|<font color="blue">The</font><font color="silver">Farty</font><font color="red">Doctor</font>]] [[User talk:Thefartydoctor|<small><sup><font color="green">Talk</font></sup></small>]] 00:07, January 30, 2017 (UTC)
+:::But hold on. The "Tom Bakers" we have pages for (as far as I'm aware of) actually appeared on a story. From the content of this page, John Hurt was only referenced on ''Greek Bearing Gifts''. I don't see the point of making pages for real-world DW-related actors if they are '''only''' mentioned. I do think this could (and should) be only a BtS note on [[John Hurt]] (as it was before). [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:19, January 30, 2017 (UTC)
+By that reasoning, why does [[Akhaten]] have the category "Planets visited by the First Doctor". That was only a line in an episode, whereas we actually witness the Eleventh Doctor's visit so he earns his category... the Doctor could simply have been lying... [[User:Thefartydoctor|<font color="blue">The</font><font color="silver">Farty</font><font color="red">Doctor</font>]] [[User talk:Thefartydoctor|<small><sup><font color="green">Talk</font></sup></small>]] 00:47, January 30, 2017 (UTC)
+::Because there is no such thing as a "real world" Akhaten sentient planet-like object. If there was, this would be a different matter. As for the Doctor "could simply have been lying". Yes, he totally could. But that would be speculation, which is not up to us. Anyway, probably an admin could settle this matter down better than us. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:58, January 30, 2017 (UTC)
+:::And to those people who don't completely know how this Wiki works? In the "notes" on ''Greek Bearing Gifts'', we link "John Hurt" (from the DWU) to "John Hurt" (from our universe)? Seems a bit silly. I can see where you're coming from regarding "it's just a reference" but this Wiki is built upon "he said, she said". You do realise that the [[Brothers Grimm]] has been "referenced" numerous times in ''Doctor Who'' throughout its mediums... but they themselves, to my knowledge, have never made an appearance. So why do they have their own page? If you delete this page, it's hypocritical not to delete "[[Brothers Grimm]]" and others like it, built on pure mentions and speculations by characters. Don't misinterpret me, I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm stating that this is an encyclopaedia. References either get their own pages or they don't. There's no "well this can go in, but this can't". [[User:Thefartydoctor|<font color="blue">The</font><font color="silver">Farty</font><font color="red">Doctor</font>]] [[User talk:Thefartydoctor|<small><sup><font color="green">Talk</font></sup></small>]] 01:08, January 30, 2017 (UTC)
+:For a little historical context, this was initially covered at [[John Hurt]], before he became involved with the DWU. At that point, it no longer made sense to cover real-world John Hurt (who's now played an incarnation of the Doctor) in a BTS section. So we flipped it around, as we sometimes do. I would recommend that everyone here read [[Talk:John Hurt]]. Reasoning is given there for why we originally made that decision. Since then, it should be noted, I think we've made more pages on the DWU versions of people with real world pages.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 01:15, January 30, 2017 (UTC)
+::My final opinion on this is that it's evident that John Hurt exists as two people. We should celebrate our unique coverage of content on this Wiki. When someone gets an in-universe mention, I'd rather be linked up to the DWU version of that person, with a "do you mean" at the top, leading me to the real person and alternate versions. I think it provides true coverage. Furthermore, the categories tell me that the person also exists in real-life. As you said, it's been done before. What makes this difference? Maybe since John Hurt has appeared in ''Doctor Who'', doesn't that compromise the lack of a DWU page? Anyway, I'm all for this page. Feel free to reach whichever decision you feel is best. [[User:Thefartydoctor|<font color="blue">The</font><font color="silver">Farty</font><font color="red">Doctor</font>]] [[User talk:Thefartydoctor|<small><sup><font color="green">Talk</font></sup></small>]] 01:19, January 30, 2017 (UTC)
+Let's reach a decision on this, please.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 20:29, March 4, 2017 (UTC)
+: Hmm, I don't understand. It seems that [[Talk:John Hurt|the talk at John Hurt]] says this page should be deleted. To quote from CzechOut: "Therefore, to ensure that our use of dab terms remains consistent, fictional references of real people go on the "real world" page. And, as a bonus, this allows us to discuss the fictional appearance using "normal" English, rather than the sorta "fictional, this-all-happened-in-the-past-and-we-know-about-it-because-we-live-at-the-end-of-the-universe English" our in-universe perspective requires us to use." Am I misreading anything? I agree that the situation with actors appearing in DWU is more subtle. After all, the main problem is that DWU can, in principle, give a real person an alternative history. But this reference line does not state anything that would be false of the real Hurt. [[User:Amorkuz|Amorkuz]] [[User talk:Amorkuz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:01, March 27, 2017 (UTC)
+:: With a [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Tardis:Disambiguation?diff=prev&oldid=3079522 recent revision] to [[Tardis:Disambiguation#Primary topics]], this is no longer an issue - in-universe versions of real world actors who have appeared in ''[[Doctor Who]]'' receive the dab, as a matter of sheer logic, somebody searching for [[Tom Baker]] would most likely want the actor, not the character. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><tt>Epsilon</tt></span>]]''' '''[[doctor who:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 20:00, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 == Potential deletion ==
 This was discussed at [[Talk:John Hurt]] in 2013, and it was decided this would be dealt with with an "in the DWU" section on the main John Hurt's page. I can see how [[Tom Baker (TV Action!)]] makes sense with a ''very'' loose reading of [[T:DAB OTHER]], but we don't generally split up one topic that's intended to be the same thing in the DWU as in the real world. Usually, we have a BTS on the in-universe page (with rare exceptions like [[Star Trek (franchise)|Star Trek]], where the real-world version is split off into a dabbed page), but a major real-world figure like [[John Hurt]] should not be dabbed.
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 :::: ...that's not really how this Wiki operates. We don't care if the character is briefly mentioned or has an appearance. We're not Wikipedia, or any other wiki - we don't decide not to create a page because they're not "notable" enough. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><tt>Epsilon</tt></span>]]''' '''[[doctor who:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 19:45, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 I recognize that Epsilon, but there is still precedent for treating minor things like this in "In the DWU" sections on RW pages, and, indeed, it's current policy, see [[Timothy Dalton]]. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:50, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+: Ah, but ''is'' that policy? Has that been written anywhere? Additionally, I want to speak up, as to abolish that practice, as there are ''numerous'' issues with it. Also, read [[T:EVIL TWIN]], as it explains we create pages for any nouns mentioned, etc, etc. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><tt>Epsilon</tt></span>]]''' '''[[doctor who:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 20:04, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+::You know as well as I do that "current policy" means "the way we do things", even if that itself is a circular reading of [[T:BOUND]] and I've expressed my view that it should be rewritten. I also am aware of the policy in question, but it's just not relevant to the fact that we currently deal with ''references'' to DWU actors in universe in this way.
+::And arguably it ''is'' written down.
+::: Therefore, to ensure that our use of dab terms remains consistent, fictional references of real people go on the {{tlx|real world}} page.
+::There was a ruling about this! (Yes, one that is premised on things that are no longer true and definitely needs to be revisited, but a ruling nevertheless.) Unless there was one since explicitly allowing pages like [[Paul Magrs (Bafflement and Devotion)]] to exist (hard to tell with dead forums), ''those'' pages are more likely to be in violation of policy than the idea of deleting this page is. And, again, I'm not suggesting we delete those pages, the canonical reading of [[T:BOUND]] suggests that they're allowed. But if you're complaining about policy not being written down, you should maybe consider that the policy in question ''was'' written down, and it's the things you want to change this to be more in accordance with that are the "unwritten policy". [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:20, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+::: I'd love to see how miserably awful [[Paul Magrs]] would look if we had to lump so much information in a "In the DWU" section.
+::: Also, that "ruling" is quite honestly outdated, and should be changed. I doubt there'd be any opposition to it being revised, as the current "policy" (if you can call it that, as I've seen admins regularly ignore it) is more detrimental as it currently "operates". <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><tt>Epsilon</tt></span>]]''' '''[[doctor who:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 20:27, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+::::''I don't disagree.'' We really do need to work on this issue. I again reiterate my view that something like 25-50% of our current issues on the wiki are the messy issues of real world references/jokes related to the series and related issues itself and wiki not having a clear, consistent way to handle them. But current policy is that this should not exist. Both in the sense of written down policy and unwritten policy.
+::::Also, thank you for the merge Scrooge. Makes things much nicer. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:33, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+:Hello, all!
+:[[User:Najawin]] would have been correct as of just a few weeks ago that the policy-as-written conflicted with the practice across the Wiki of creating pages for in-universe counterparts of various individuals — not that it started with [[User:Epsilon the Eternal]]'s more recent efforts; we've had [[Tom Baker (TV Action!)]] for a very long time.
+:However, [[User:Shambala108]]'s helpful comments at [[Talk:Hugh Grant]] spelled out the "common practice" (in the sense of "unwritten policy") around the ''naming'' of in-universe counterparts to BTS personalities. This carried an implicit endorsement of the existence of such, and this is doubly the case since Shambala's words on that talk page have been incorporated in the "Primary topics" section of the actual [[T:DAB]] policy page. Which only makes sense — conflating the mentioned "from the real-world" DWU individuals with their real-world counterparts chafed with [[T:NO RW]] quite a bit.
+:'''This page — and its ilk — can stay''', although until very recently they ''technically'' shouldn't have, maybe, sort of, depending on how you read precedent.
+:And thanks for the kind words, Najawin! [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:34, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+::P.S.: [[User:SOTO]]'s earlier complaint, from last June, about Hurt only being ''mentioned'' in ''[[Greeks Bearing Gifts (TV story)|Greeks Bearing Gifts]]'' does however hold up; we're not really supposed to dab by mention. Any thoughts on an alternative dab term? "(actor)" might be confusing; how do we feel about "(N-Space)"? [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:37, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+::: Oh dear ''[[Urizen]]'', not "(N-Space)"... I have a whole argument against how shite that dab is, so if you'll give me a minute, let me write it out. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><tt>Epsilon</tt></span>]]''' '''[[doctor who:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 20:43, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+::::: No matter how “shite” you may find it, it does have official, admin-stamped [[Doctor Who (N-Space)|precedent]] behind it. Even if we decide to ditch it in the long run, that's no reason not to use it evenly across the Wiki ''for now'', [[T:BOUND]] and all. If we ever decide to rename [[N-Space]] and/or use something else for the dab term of [[Doctor Who (N-Space)]], we'll apply the same change to this page and any other using "(N-Space)" at the time, but for now, we must work within established current policy, and with what we've got. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:50, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+But if I recall correctly, "(N-Space)" was supposed to be an exception, not something to be regularly used. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><tt>Epsilon</tt></span>]]''' '''[[doctor who:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 20:59, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+:[[Talk:Give-a-Show Projector (N-Space)]] is the relevant thread here. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+::That's a hoot. I was the one who ''opened'' that talk page discussion, and I was told that N-Space was the exception. It was determined there, that the out-of-universe page would need a dab or that the in-universe page should be dabbed by the story of its appearance. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><tt>Epsilon</tt></span>]]''' '''[[doctor who:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 21:06, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+::: Also, that thread actually backs me up to a good extent. Might I also mention, that there are lots of pages that dab by mention, when the the thing hasn't ''appeared'' in a source. Take [[Timmy (The Scarlet Empress)]], [[Gary (The Scarlet Empress)]], [[Jimmy (The Panda Invasion)]] and [[Jenny (The Panda Invasion)]] for some examples. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><tt>Epsilon</tt></span>]]''' '''[[doctor who:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 21:11, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+== Appearance ==
+I believe that as per [[Tardis_talk:Temporary_forums/Archive/Lists_of_Appearances]], invalid appearances are allowed to be mentioned in infoboxes. [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
+: Good catch! My mistake. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 16:44, 3 February 2023 (UTC)