Talk:Faction Paradox

Members as Time Lords?

This question may be difficult, but it comes down to this do we take the stance of the Great Houses and declare that members of Faction Paradox are not of the same creed or do we take the Factions own stance and declare them members of the Great Houses as technically the Book of the War says that their members do have full homeworlder (time lord) status and their is some debate weather time lords and Galifreyans are one the same. So do we add members of Faction Paradox to the Category of Individual Time Lords or not? My personal view is that only members whilst Faction Paradox was seen as house should count (namely those before the Gradfather escaped Shada and those between the Eleven Day Empire and the Worlds from Nine Divinities, should be counted as time lord those not in those two should not. And whilst I can only name four named members during these two point I think only these four should be considered time lords, those three being Grandfather Paradox, Justine, Eliza and Shuncucker.)Anastasia Cousins ☎ 20:46, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Does TBotW say this? Inside the Grandfather's House suggests the opposite.

Many of those who sit in the Parliament are children of the Great Houses rather than members of the "lesser" species [...] many have questioned whether it counts as a true bloodline at all, although the Faction makes so many biological changes to its recruits that there is still a genuine blood-bond between members

Given the nature of Houseworlders in the FP series and their unique relationship to history, I'm not sure how you can read this as saying that members of the lesser species are out and out made into Time Lords. Obviously if there's another entry that says different I'm not remembering, that would be relevant. Najawin ☎ 21:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I was going more along the fact that it gives members of the lesser species equal standing, this comes down to what is a Time Lord? For instance the Cwej (around the time of the 50th year of the War) where lobbying for Houses status. the question is are full members of a House, as some members of Faction Paradox are, time lords. I myself would argue that yes a Time Lord just means you are a full member of a House. For instance Leela was made a member of House Redloom in Lungbarrow and this wiki considers her a Time Lord K9 is alway mentioned as being a Time Lord in several sources. leela married into a House and thus gained Time Lord status, I assume a member of House Paradox would also be inducted into the House by what ever esoteric ritual the Faction use?

we must also consider Lolita who is not what one would call a Gallifreyan but she is still a Time Lord (if not by name then by the fact she is a prominent member of the Council of Houses) and in fact leads her own house. So the Question is does gaining the full rights of a member of the Great Houses make you a Time Lord? I would say yes.Anastasia Cousins ☎ 21:25, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Huh, didn't know we considered Leela one. Regardless, it comes down, imo, to what the terms mean in each source. "Time Lord" isn't a thing in FP, but the closest analogue would be "child of the Great Houses". The Cwejen might be petitioning for a political status, but that wouldn't necessarily grant them the same metaphysical status. (Or maybe it would. The work is a bit ambiguous here.) Najawin ☎ 21:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

the fact it seems in Faction Paradox you have two kinds of “Time Lords” (for lack of a better less clinch term) Time Lords in the Metaphysical sense and Time Lords in the Political sense. I would argue that members of House Paradox are Time Lords in the Political sense. And anyway I would also like to say that Justine should be a Time Lord for another reason in that she posses the Shadow of the Grandfather and by Faction law (which latter becomes house law as of the Eleven Day Empire) is that the Shadow of the individual is more important that the body of the individual thus make Justine a political Time Lord (even if we ignore the restoration of Faction. paradox as House Paradox) and due to the Fact that the shadow defiantly does strange things to her Biodata we could argue that she is a Time Lord in the metaphysical sense as well as the Political. I would argue that Eliza, Morlock, Sabbath, quelch and any member of the Faction who existed between the restoration of the Faction as House Paradox and Lolita taking power as the War Queen and stripping the Faction of it Houses status are all “Time Lords” in the political sense. And Shuncucker due to having the Grandfather’s shadow is this also a time lord in the metaphysical sense. The War King does after all mention that Justine is under the Protection of House Protocol as she is an officially recognised member of House Paradox. Morlock (who worry I may start to be sounding like in this discussion) suggests that Justine will be able to find safety Homeworld because of the fact that the Faction now a House once more. (And should we consider the Hand of Fear in this debate) non Time Lords are not allowed onto the Homeworld. Anastasia Cousins ☎ 21:55, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The True History of Faction Paradox, where the Faction is formerly readmitted as a Great House to Lolita's irritation, must be accounted for here. But I think the elegant solution would be to place Category:Faction Paradox members in Category:Individual Time Lords without individually putting Faction members in the latter category; I think that would reflect the specificities and ambiguities of the situation rather neatly, insofar as the Faction are more often deemed a House i.e. a collective of Time Lords, than individual Faction members are called Houseworlders/Sun Builders/etc. Indeed I propose this because I'd somehow been under the impression we did this already. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:41, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this fully as it cuts out the difficulties of Political and Metaphysical Time Lords and whether or not we need someone to count as both to be put into the category. Shall I make the change or should I wait a little longer.Anastasia Cousins ☎ 22:48, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh, that was only a suggestion, not an admin ruling. Let's wait and see what Najawin, and potentially other people, think of it. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:50, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

👍Anastasia Cousins ☎ 22:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. Lemme think about it more. I think there's another option, which is a larger rewriting of our coverage of Time Lord and related articles to better distinguish between the race and the culture. Since the issue has caused headaches on other pages as well, and it would streamline a lot of coverage of other topics. Not saying we have to, but something I want to think more about. Najawin ☎ 23:03, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

well I do agree on a rewrite of that however I believe it would require a Forum as (now correct me if I am wrong) I believe there was a previous forum discussing this and so another forum would be needed to update the ruling on it. For now I suggest going with Scrooge’s suggestion until a forum can be set up. Anastasia Cousins ☎ 23:10, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

It would indeed, since it covers multiple pages. Just stating why I want to think about it. Najawin ☎ 23:11, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

so do you agree that we should, for now, follow Scrooge’s suggest and add the category of Faction Paradox Members to the category of individual time lords?Anastasia Cousins ☎ 23:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I think I'd like some time to think about it, as I said above. Najawin ☎ 23:16, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Take all the time you want I myself also will retire for now as I require sleep.Anastasia Cousins ☎ 23:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

For my perspective, Scrooge is right to bring up the evidence from True History, and I think his suggestion best reflects the ambiguity in the material. I'm a bit skeptical about the difference articulated above between "metaphysical Time Lords" and "political Time Lords" – I don't think metaphysics has to come into it, because it seems to just be a divide between "Gallifreyan Time Lords" and "non-Gallifreyan Time Lords", which is already covered suitably at Time Lord#Race or rank?. But I'll save it for the forum thread. – n8 (☎) 14:08, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I just don't agree that the two things map in the same way - it could be that metaphysical Time Lords and political Time Lords are the same set, but it categorically cannot be that Gallifreyan and Gallifreyan+ Time Lords are the same set. (With that said, I think the category tree option is probably the best we're going to get at this time.) Najawin ☎ 19:28, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Right. I mean that in Anastasia's usage above, "metaphysical Time Lord" seems to describe the set of Gallifreyan Time Lords, whereas "political Time Lord" describes the set of both Gallifreyan and non-Gallifreyan Time Lords. To what extent her usage reflects your intention is a different matter. Thinking of it in terms of Gallifreyan and non-Gallifreyan seems helpful to me because I don't think "metaphysical Time Lord" is a useful label for the discussion. – n8 (☎) 20:10, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

That's fair. The question I'm gesturing towards is sort of "at what point, under what conditions does a member of the great houses become entangled with history and the spiral politic on a fundamental level". Is it just being acknowledged as a member of the culture? Being a Gallifreyan? Both? I think there's ambiguity here. But not really important to the fact that I think the categorization is perfectly fine for now. (Also, have you taken a look at my suggestion at Talk:God (mythology)? Not thrilled with it, but, you know.) Najawin ☎ 20:26, 9 May 2023 (UTC)