Forum:Temporary forums/Splitting the Master's page: Difference between revisions

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 Peoples of the universe, please attend carefully. The proposal that follows is vital to the future of you all… Given that this is the 51st anniversary of the Master, I think it is particularly appropriate that today be the day we finally address the long yearned re-split of [[The Master]]. [https://twitter.com/NoNotTheMemes/status/1585386084376399872 We need a split. We need the Master-split].
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 :::Again, in the CoFD discussion we felt the same about times having changed. I also reiterate that this thread is explicitly about ''how'' to split the Master page, it says so in the opening post. It makes no sense to suggest that the Delgado/Pratt/Beevers issue should be discussed elsewhere, it's explicitly intended to be discussed here. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
+:::: Delgado <u>needs</u> to be split from Pratt/Beevers. The merge decision was made in 2010/2011, two years before the incarnation was explicitly established to be a separate incarnation from Roger Delgado. ''Legacy of the Daleks'' is the one story that stands in contrast to the multitude of stories that explicitly identify that the Thirteenth Master is not Roger Delgado, but Geoffrey Beevers (''Mastermind'', ''Planet of Dust'', ''Day of the Master'', ''And You Will Obey Me'', ''The Two Masters'', ''Doorway to Hell'', ''Masterful''). What's more, ''Legacy of the Daleks'' does not explicitly state the incarnations as the same. It merely states that the Master could not safely regenerate from the wounds that he suffered. "Failed regeneration" is often touted as a reason for the Decayed Master to look the way he does. Fans believed the Eighth Doctor regenerated into the Ninth Doctor, before ''Night of the Doctor'' proved them wrong. We're now in a situation where fans believed that the Decayed Master was a crispy Roger Delgado, before ''The Two Masters'' proved them wrong. Under my proposal, we still reference the idea that they may be the same incarnation on the Twelfth Master's page using accounts language --just as we reference the idea of the Eighth Doctor regenerating into the Ninth Doctor on the Eighth Doctor's page using account's language. [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
-[[Category:Temporary forums]]
+:I '''support''' this proposed split wholeheartedly. [[User:Pluto2|Pluto2]] ([[User talk:Pluto2|talk]]) 20:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
+::I too strongly support [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]]'s very thorough proposal. As for the whole issue centering around the Decayed Master, well, this is a large reason the page was combined in the first place! If we're going to split the pages, there seems little doubt to me that the incarnations as proposed by NoNotTheMemes are distinct characters,  in-universe ({{Simm}} invited them separately in ''[[Masterful (audio story)|Masterful]]'', among others) but also from a general encyclopedic perspective. If the Master is split, people will be looking for Ainley separate from Beevers, etc. It helps no one to have all of them on the same page and leads to a miniature version of the conundrum we currently have. And given that these incarnations are closely intertwined, but not quite the same as Pratt and Beevers's Decayed Master, I think the proposal here is the best way of going about it, where it's fully acknowledged they're part of the same regeneration on [[Decayed Master]] but are different bodies with different personalities. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:20, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
+:::Well, thank you for the new earworm. I absolutely support split. How we'd handle the many Beevers Masters was a concern of mine, but your sandbox article is quite an elegant solution. [[User:SherlockTheII|SherlockTheII]] [[User talk:SherlockTheII|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:25, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
+:::: I, again, wish to stress that I ''agree'' with you Memes. You're preaching to the choir. I'm making a point about a procedural issue here. As a result of this procedural issue being resolved, we might find people who are willing to argue this point with you. But I just think we should approach this issue correctly. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:33, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
+:I wish I had something to add, but every base seems to be covered. I give my full '''support''' to this split. [[User:LegoK9|LegoK9]] [[User talk:LegoK9|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:27, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
+:I was going to mention some minor queries I have with how we will treat some very obscure Masters, but I feel that will only slow down this discussion, so I shall leave them for later. ''I wholeheartedly agree with this proposal''[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:04, 3 January 2023 (UTC)Etty
+: I support the Master split, as it is a necessary change that should've been done years ago. That is all. [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:08, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
+: Just going back to this to address the potential Delgado/Pratt-Beevers/Ainley/Roberts issue. I would say that, in light of contradictory accounts, they should all be separate regardless of one seeing Delgado and Beevers, or even Ainley and Roberts as the same incarnation or not. The way I see it its like the [[Dalek Emperor in the Last Great Time War]] who may or may not be the [[Dalek Prime]], the [[Emperor of the Restoration]] or the [[Dalek Prime Strategist]] etc. It might even be an idea to create a page for say [[The Master's thirteenth incarnation]] which would not be unlike [[The Doctor's ninth incarnation]]. [[User:MrThermomanPreacher|MrThermomanPreacher]] [[User talk:MrThermomanPreacher|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
+:: @[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]], wouldn't obscure Masters get their own page like how we cover obscure Doctors? {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 16:27, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
+:::Yes, Epsilon, I'd hope they would. I was instead refering to whether or not we'd count the MasterDoctor in PoTD as a Master incarnation, whether we'd put [[The War King|War King]] in [[:Category:Incarnations of the Master]], ect. I didn't name this in fear I'd end up derailing the thread, as these can be delt with later because right now we just need to make the point clear that ••I fully and wholeheartedly support the splitting o [[The Master]] page into their subsequent incarnations, as referred to by their episode of debut, with any and all other debates around specifics being left until ''after'' the split•• [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:10, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
+Just chiming in to say I '''''fully support''''' The Split. Everything I would've said has been covered here already, and I agree that naming conventions can be an ongoing discussion post-Split. The only note I'd like to add is for some readers/fans who maybe do consider, say, Delgado and Crispy as the same incarnation... maybe ''if ''there are sources that back up this, they can simply be mentioned in each page's "Notes/Trivia" section, as a sort of "hey by the way, some sources suggest these could be the same incarnation, but this Wiki treats them as seperate due to the majority of evidence leaning that way"? Doing that just covers all angles, and leaves it open for if any readers wish to have a slightly different reading to what the Wiki suggests. But, irrespective of all that, like I said, fully on board and in support of The Split. [[User:FractalDoctor|FractalDoctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:39, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
+:: @Cousin Ettolrhc, like I mentioned above, let's keep Dhawan's DoctorMaster discussion to the Spy Doctor's talk page, as to not derail the overall split.
+:: For the War King, this is not a hard ruling, but given we have him apart from the current [[The Master]] page, he wouldn't get the category.
+:: As an aside, I'd likd to express how happy I am that everyone seems to agree a split IS needed. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:08, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
+Also chiming in to voice my '''support''' for the split. I don't edit much on this wiki, but I can say that the Master's page is messy at this point that sometimes I can't even tell which incarnation a given section is about. I also agree that the Decayed Master should have a separate page from the Delgado Master. [[User:Time God Eon|Time God Eon]] [[User talk:Time God Eon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:01, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
+: I also support this proposal.  My only additional commentary is that I'm unsure about the idea of combining the Tzun and Tipple Masters. [[User:Schreibenheimer|Schreibenheimer]] [[User talk:Schreibenheimer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:42, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
+:: Just noticed Tzun/Tipple in the proposal and I agree they should be split. Come to think of it that fits the Dalek Emperor point I made above, that there's the "Old" Tipple Master who may be either the Ainley Master or the Tzun Master like the War Emperor is either the Dalek Prime or the Emperor of the Restoration etc. [[User:MrThermomanPreacher|MrThermomanPreacher]] [[User talk:MrThermomanPreacher|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
+:: Well, the thing is that no valid source asserts the Tipple Master as definitively his own incarnation ''without'' combining him with the ''[[First Frontier (novel)|First Frontier]]'' regenerated Master. Either he's the ''FF'' Master (as ''[[The Novel of the Film (novelisation)|The Novel of the Film]]''/''[[The TV Movie (novelisation)|The TV Movie]]'' says), or he's the Ainley Master (as ''[[The Eight Doctors (novel)|The Eight Doctors]]'' says). So we essentially cover the events of the TVM on both these preexisting Masters' pages, as we cover the [[Time Lord messenger (Genesis of the Daleks)|Time Lord messenger]] on [[Ferain]], [[Valyes]], etc. A page on Tipple ''qua'' Tipple is not really supported by any sources, and would have no other purpose but to, as it were, "teach the controversy" on which Master it is who gets executed by the Daleks; and I think that would be redundant with [[The Master's trial (Doctor Who)]] which already does that perfectly well. If we ever get a source that uses the Tipple Master "for his own sake", without identifying him as the ''FF'' Master, I would of course support a split, but that's just not really warranted with the current state of affairs.
+:: As to using the ''TV Movie'' credits' "[[Old Master]]" for this — well, it ''is'' a name used in credits, and there's not much chance of people thinking it refers to Ainley, so I didn't think it would be too controversial. People sometimes say "Tzun Master" to refer to the ''First Frontier'' Master, but I think that's inadvisable on the Wiki: he's made by Tzun technology, sure, but the [[Tzun]] are a specific, non-humanoid species, and "Tzun Master" might give the impression that he's in a Tzun body, in much the same way that Ainley is sometimes called "the Trakenite Master". If this proves controversial, I am of course up for putting him at [[The Master (First Frontier)]] at first, and further discussing the naming at [[Talk:The Master (First Frontier)]]. (Also thanks to Scrooge for converting this to wikitext so I didn’t have to —using my cell phone for wiki stuff is near impossible. [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:01, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
+:: ('''Note''': Apologies for the brief glitch there to anyone who get a notification. I was helping [[User:NoNotTheMemes]] to try and format a message he wrote due to computer issues on his end, accidentally hit publish so that the tildes were rendered my own signature. Nothing to see. Gah. But I've figured out what was tripping him up, so he should be able to post it in his own name in a moment.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 17:56, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
+: I's like to voice my support for the split too. I would also like to put forth that names already used as hyperlinks be the article page names; Ainley's [[Tremas Master]], Roberts' [[Bruce Master]],  Macqueen's [[Reborn Master]], and Simm's [[Saxon Master]]. [[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:03, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
+:: Regstering my opposition to some of these specific name choices, but I think that conversation should be left for the incarnation talk pages, not this forum thread. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 15:03, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
+== Conclusion ==
+<div class="tech">
+[[File:Merging Tremaster.jpg|thumb|right|A Master Split… at last!]]
+:'''Alright, everyone'''.
+: A full week has now elapsed since this thread was opened, including a week-end. I think it is fair to say that the proposal to split the Master has been approved by the community with overwhelming consensus; we have twenty people here, contributors casual and long-term, and not a single person opposes the split. Indeed, as per the guidelines from [[User:CzechOut]]'s much-vaunted Discussions message, the spirit of this thread was always going to be to get bearings on the "how" of the split; the "whether" was more a question of protocol than anything which was ever seriously in doubt.
+:I do take note of [[User:Najawin]]'s scruples above about the ''lack'' of any opposing viewpoints — but look… some things are just such no-brainers that we would wait in vain for further input. This Wiki ''will not'' merge all the Masters back together again. We will not. [[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|We've seen that — and we never want to see it again.]] [[The Zygon Inversion (TV story)|Never… again!…]] If some people with novel rationales for why we should cover e.g. Delgado and the Crispy Master(s) on a single page, in particular, should happen to come out of the woodwork, they are more than welcome to '''create a new merging discussion, specifically for those pages''' — but the Masters who could ''arguably'' be folded into a single page under that kind of reasoning are, by now, a minority, and there is no reason the necessary and uncontroversial split of all the other ones should be delayed for its sake.
+:(As a point of procedure: Najawin cited the matter of the ''[[The Curse of Fatal Death (TV story)|The Curse of Fatal Death]]'' — but I do not accept the premise that we ''erred'' in that debate. A new user showing up later with new evidence, and us reopening an old case as a result, is '''normal procedure''' in the case of the discovery of new evidence on a topic. This scenario coming into play is not any kind of judgment on the closing of the original thread — in fact, it's perfectly natural.)
+:The only topic of partial disagreement was the business of [[Gordon Tipple]] and the ''First Frontier'' Master. As per the original suggestion of this thread, I move that the page be initially created at [[The Master (First Frontier)]]. Whether to rename it to [[Old Master]] will be handled on the talk page, though I think a redirect is warranted. At the current stage, I find the argument against giving Tipple's Master a page ''separate'' from "Tzun"'s and Ainley's to be compelling, and will only create the one, but if people want to discuss this point at greater length, that would also be a matter for [[Talk:The Master (First Frontier)]], and it would not constitute a [[T:POINT]] breach to start such a discussion.
+:It will be somewhat more than a thirty-second job to move all the relevant sandboxes into the main namespace, alter the linking templates, etc. I ask that everyone please '''hold off from beginning to edit our shiny new incarnation pages''' until this necessary work is completed, and that you leave it to me, lest we end up running into edit-conflict issues. [EDIT: The essentials have been achieved; carry on as usual.]
+:Thank you, everyone.
+:And now, a brief musical interlude!
+::“''The Master Split… <small>we did the Master Spliiiit!''…”</small> <small><small>[Music fades into the distance.]</small></small>
+:[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 15:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
+</div>

Forum:Temporary forums/Splitting the Master's page: Difference between revisions

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