Forum:Temporary forums/Overhauling image policies: Difference between revisions

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 == Opening post ==
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 I want [[User:Epsilon the Eternal|Epsilon the Eternal]] to say some final comments on this as he was the one who originally had an opening post written, which was disrupted by a 1 month block. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:53, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
+:I agree with basically everything said here (would like to be more specific but can't read the whole thread). [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:58, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
+:: Okay, my thoughts on this. (I do have considerable interest in getting this policy changed, so thank you all for waiting!) A lot of this is just me supporting other people's proposals but I do have many of my own thoughts sprinkled in.
+# I agree that [[T:GTI]] and [[T:IUP]] should be merged, it is completely unintuitive to have two policies for the same thing.
+# I wasn't even aware that 4:3 aspect ratios were to be avoided! I have uploaded many images in this aspect ratio, and I feel that we should allow 4:3 aspect ratios interchangably with 16:9. Unless if it is closely cropped in on a particular item in frame or some other particularily good reason, I feel we should err on the side of using the natural aspect ratio of the source.
+# I am all for slackening the rules on the position of eyes (even though it was only meant to be a guideline in the first place!) and also codifying that to be cropped in on the face does not mean you crop out the forehead and chin, which are parts of the face. I have seen this done in the past and it was very extreme.
+# The rule of facing left, while nice for consistency, is too harshly applied. We should be able to determine the best possible image with criteria other than "must be facing left, must be looking left" haha.
+# I genuinely don't get why comic colourisations are disallowed. I originally thought the policy was referring to ''fan colourisations''! I completely support allowing colourisations.
+# As for OOU infobox images, I feel we should use the image as it originally came. I'd rather not start cropping those images too! So if some are square, some are widescreen, andd some are portrait... we should use them all the same!
+# With "one image per paragraph", I agree with the change, but only if the paragraph's length exceeds the length of the image (unless if there isn't another image directly underneath). This can easily be tested through previewing the changes to the page, so I feel this limitation should be easy to apply and uphold.
+# Promo images are a toughy. I feel the issue is rather thorny to completely change here without first dissecting the pros and cons, so perhaps another thread may be best. I also do not feel like this constitutes a [[T:NO RW]] breach, especially as there is very little difference between a Big Finish trailer and interior artwork from a Big Finish CD. Also, promo images are already allowed in many cases as the non-narrative fiction thread made those with titles fair game. However, I feel we should at least make a couple of small changes:<br>'''One''': I think we should allow the comic previews and Big Finish trailer visuals to be used so long as they're merged into the relevant source's page, and cited as <tt><nowiki>[[COMIC]]: ''[[Seasons of Fear (audio story)|Seasons of Fear]]''</nowiki></tt> and/or <tt><nowiki>[[COMIC]]: ''[[Seasons of Fear (comic story)|Seasons of Fear]]''</nowiki></tt> (the latter as a redirect to the audio story). I'm sure that while the greater scope of promo images will need further discussion, allowing "promo images" from these sources in the exact same way we do interior artwork and covers should be uncontroversial. (A further point is the particular portrayal of [[Erimem]] being a dark skinned Egyptian in the DWM comics which is a highly important part of her character despite [[Caroline Morris|her actor]] being very British.)<br>'''Two''': promo images for stories with no existing visuals should definitely be allowed. It feels weird to have a television story page without any images!
+# Tabbed galleries for non-multiple-incarnation characters should definitely be allowed; I've always wanted to see an image of [[Beverley Cressman]]'s version of [[Kate Stewart]] in the infobox! (So in short I feel that differing actors may be enough grounds for a tabbed gallery, but I'm sure others would disagree.) We should also make it clear — considering the feedback I've heard from mobile app users — to disallow links in the tabbed gallery as it makes using them impossible as the app thinks you've clicked the link to a given page instead. These, as pointed out by @[[user:Fractal Doctor|Fractal Doctor]] would also be very helpful with real world source pages that have multiple covers.
+# With galleries, I feel in some cases keeping them on the main page will be best for visual content, ''a la'' the example on Memory Alpha. I can see larger galleries being better suited to <nowiki>[[/Gallery]]</nowiki> subpages though.
+# The file size limit should definitely be the same as Fandom's; it makes little sense not to make the most of the features Fandom gives us! Furtermore, it should be noted that [[T:ICC]] says "''most are completely fine at 20-40kb.''" which is absolutely not fine. It may have been in 2005, but not now, nearly ''twenty years later''! These are the types of images I see on old [[Doctor Who tie-websites|''Doctor Who'' tie-in websites]] and think to myself how archaic the small images are.
+# I personally feel that .pngs, .jpgs, .webps, and .svgs should all be allowed. .pngs and .jpgs should be allowed interchangably, .webps are the same filetype as what Fandom converts all images to anyway (so it can be a hassle when you download an image from one Wiki as a .webp but have to convert it when you come to upload to Tardis) and .svgs should be allowed primarily for logos. It's what Wikimedia often uses!<br>As @[[user:guyus24|guyus24]] pointed out, Fandom does convert images from their original file types to .webps and also changes their aspect ratios, so not having so many hard rules on things like aspect ratios wouldn't harm anything. Wanna make sure that this explanation is known by the admin closing the thread as I feel it is important to understand these things from a technical perspective too.
+# I agree with @[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] we should expand our list of licenses. A lot is missing! (Some could do with updates as well, some even still call Fandom "Wikia".)
+# Mirroring my support of 4:3 images, I also feel like portrait images in infoboxes should be allowed. A lot of the time they show important details such as a character's clothing which is a major part of character design. I also do not feel like this would impact consistency, as since we have validated a lot of non-narrative books now, I'm sure there is at least one with good character portraits that we can use for at least every television Doctor, companion, and major supporting characters. The Russian Wiki pulls this off ''really well'', even if they primarily utilise photographic images.
+# I would also like to see some mention of image composition on the revised policy pages, mentioning things like {{w|rule of three}}, as it can be a good guide.
+# As for images for infoboxes for countries, why don't we use both the flag and a picture of the country, as suggested earlier, but placed into a tabbed gallery? Or is that what everyone intended anyway?
+:: I feel, in the wake of this massive change to policy, the previous restrictions on when infobox image discussions for characters such as [[Bernice Summerfield]] should be reset and new discussions to be created, as a lot of previously disallowed images will likely be completely acceptable. I hope my post hasn't been too long! {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 21:04, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
+== Conclusion ==
+<div class="tech">
+Alright, let's do this. There is clear consensus that we need to massively modernise and overhaul our image policies; I don't think the following conclusions will be surprising to anyone who's read through this thread, but I'll still restate each and every change for clarity
+=== On permitted image uploads ===
+* Per near-unanimous consensus, '''the 100kb file size limit is no more.''' We should no longer have a hard limit distinct from FANDOM's built-in limit of 10MB (few images really need to be more than, say, 5MB, but the full limit may sometimes be useful to reproduce a very large image, such as a wallpaper, without data loss).
+* '''PNG and JPG should both be allowed for the majority of images''' (with a bias towards JPGs for screenshot, but PNGs shouldn't be deleted on sight if they do arise). Other bespoke file-tipes like SVG can be used for specific types of non-standard images like logos. '''WEBP shouldn't be used, though.''' It's a pain to work with, and since FANDOM converts anyway, there's no benefit in saddling ourselves with the thing at the uploading level.
+* '''4:3 and 16:9 aspect ratios, and anything in-between, should be freely allowed on in-universe pages'''. We should also be less afraid of square or vertical images, though only when it becomes necessary. ''If possible'' infobox images should still be wider than they are tall. But when the DWU gives us lemons, we shouldn't spit out the lemonade.
+* '''Official colourisations of comic stories and the like are allowed and valid''', to bring it in line with our policies on all other kinds of special editions. (That being said, colourisation of single frames that are not part of a fully-colourised edition of a given source should not be used outside of galleries and BTS sections.)
+* '''We should host uncropped version of promotional images when possible'''.
+* The list of licenses should indeed be updated as necessary, but I don't think a Forum thread was inherently necessary to come to that conclusion.
+=== On image use ===
+==== Infoboxes ====
+* '''Professional shots used for real-world people should indeed be left uncropped, or at any rate cropped more generously/diversely than the standars for in-universe pages.'''
+* Infobox images for in-universe characters '''should be cropped around the head, but can and generally should include the full head, not crop out the chin and hair'''. In some cases going as low as the shoulder can be justified: the bowtie really should be visible on [[Eleventh Doctor]]!
+* Tabbed galleries in infobox should be expanded for such purposes as alternative covers for publications, original vs. updated editions on yer [[Mara]]s and [[Time Scoop]]s (using, in both of these cases, the years as tab names) and, yes, '''non-diegetic recasts''' (using the actor's name for the tabs). I was initially going to specify that actors who play the character at a different age should be their own discussion, but then I remembered that we already do something very similar at [[Kazran Sardick]], so… no, come to think of it, we absolutely ''should'' show [[Caitlin Blackwood]] on a second tab at [[Amy Pond]]. I'll add that although [[User:OttselSpy25]]'s OP mentions “I can think of a ton of uses for this right away. Maybe Oswin Oswald could have a tab featuring her as a human, and another as her as a chained-up Dalek. Maybe Hob could have a pre/post Eldritch horror tab system. etc.”, both these cases were actually already allowed by [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Replacing docpic#Conclusion]]:
+{{quote|As illustrated by Henry Jekyll and Edward Hyde, the tabbed system can be used for many more situations than just Time Lords with multiple known incarnations.|Myself in the old conclusion}}
+** By the way: with regards to disallowing links in the tabbed galleries as it "makes using them impossible as the app thinks you've clicked the link to a given page instead" — yes, absolutely. '''That was never meant to be allowed.''' Any and all instances of it should be obliterated on sight.
+* As per widespread consensus, there should be '''a preference for characters looking left, but it should not be an absolute rule at all'''.
+* If both are available, '''both flag and aerial photo/map can be used to illustrate a country''', using tabs. However, it's not a big deal if we don't always have both and some pages are just-one, others just-the-other.
+==== Promotional images ====
+* As per consensus, '''"promotional images" that are essentially illustrations that happened not to be packaged with the story itself should be valid, cited ''to'' the story they apply to'''. For example, a DWM BF preview comic should be cited as "([[AUDIO]]: ''[[Example (audio story)|Example]]'')", no different from an illustration in the booklet. This also applies to '''screenshots from the type of BF trailers that imitate TV "Next Time" trailers, illustrating snapshots of the actual stories at play''', and these should likewise be cited to the audio story under discussion. This '''does not''' apply to fully-original webcasts of the stripe of [[WC]]: ''[[He Who Fights With Monsters (webcast)|He Who Fights With Monsters]]''; images from them should really be cited to the webcasts themselves, and we can't do that until/unless the webcasts are ruled as valid ''qua'' sources.
+* As an extension of this, '''promotional images can be used in the infoboxes of missing episodes and to illustrate their events, cited to the TV story itself'''. This is, however, for the time being, a special measure for stories with no available footage; promotional pictures for stories where we ''do'' have the real screenshots should not be used on in-universe pages.
+* The suggestion to start using promotional images of characters willy-nilly in e.g. infoboxes '''is, however, rejected'''. It is an essential part of this Wiki's ethos that '''every in-universe element must be cited to a [[Tardis:Valid sources|valid source]]''', and that goes for images as well. To use a promotional image on in-universe pages, it must ''either'' be "lumped in" with a particular valid source it illustrates (as described in the two bullet-points above), or constitute a valid "(illustration)" in its own right as per the parameters set by [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Non-narrative fiction and Rule 1#Conclusion]]. Which is the case of photographic promotional images ''sometimes'', just not all the time. But fear not, archivists, because…
+* …notwithstanding situations like that which arose at [[The Doctor (The Brain of Morbius)]] where the copyright-holders disapprove, '''we should still strive to keep a complete archive of official promotional images on the Wiki''', even if they're not used on in-universe pages.
+==== Galleries ====
+The big one. '''We absolutely should introduce /Gallery [[T:SUBPAGE|subpages]] for such things as characters, locations, items, and even species'''. They should always be their own subpages, not subsections of the main page. They should follow a similar set-up to [https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Merlin/Gallery#Screenshots galleries on many big Wikis such as the Disney Wiki], intuitively similar to the old LOAs format: top-level sections sorting images by "medium", separating images from (or lumped in with) stories from free-floating promotional pictures, which should be presented chronologically.
+I will very arbitrarily set the threshold number of images justifying a gallery at '''10''', and have cobbled together a serviceable {{tlx|Gallerylink}} hatnote to be added at the top of pages with galleries. The former can be discussed again at [[Tardis_talk:Subpage policy]] if it proves unsatisfactory, and the latter could probably use a more attractive design than I can give it, which can be workshopped at [[Template_talk:Gallerylink]] by interested parties.
+See [[Davros/Gallery]] for an as-yet-stubby example.
+==== Misc. ====
+* '''The new maximum for inline thumbnails on in-universe pages should be one image per paragraph, not one image per section'''.
+* Although comic colourisations are now ''allowed'', they should not necessarily be preferred over the black-and-white versions. In the case of [[Beep]], for example, different colourisations famously took different sides on the colour of his fur, so it'd be best to simply offer the original black-and-white version in the infobox, and include images depicting the two colour schemes later on. Other images simply look better in black-and-white as thumbnails, with colours serving only to clutter and muddy the details. Let's not get carried away.
+-- [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 21:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
+</div>