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== Opening post == | == Opening post == | ||
Opening this as suggested by [[User:WaltK]]. There isn't currently an opening post draft that I know of, but then, this isn't so much a new proposal as the revival of an ongoing point of community discussion from before the Forums' collapse. | Opening this as suggested by [[User:WaltK]]. There isn't currently an opening post draft that I know of, but then, this isn't so much a new proposal as the revival of an ongoing point of community discussion from before the Forums' collapse. | ||
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::::Given how often sci-fi works make commentary on classism, I do feel that is one that is too common to be included as a warning. [[User:Schreibenheimer|Schreibenheimer]] [[User talk:Schreibenheimer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:19, 24 February 2023 (UTC) | ::::Given how often sci-fi works make commentary on classism, I do feel that is one that is too common to be included as a warning. [[User:Schreibenheimer|Schreibenheimer]] [[User talk:Schreibenheimer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:19, 24 February 2023 (UTC) | ||
=== Parent Page | Apologies Laura, didn't see your response until just now. My response is that as someone who thinks of themselves as primarily writing story summaries, I have a tendency to lapse into thinking of the wiki as being story summary first, other pages second. (Also, Moffat, classist? I've never heard that criticism before. Huh.) | ||
I've also never heard someone say that merely ''liking'' HP is transphobic, though I have heard people question the taste in books of an adult calling it their favorite series. (I've also seen people side-eye some others for the racial issues in the books, but not ''transphobia''.) As for queer, well, that's not really my place to comment. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:07, 24 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:No need to apologise about the delayed response. It's all good. And yeah, there are many different takes on the internet, some of which are surprisingly common, even if they aren't in majority. And by introducing the concept of content warnings, we are opening the doors to all of them. I'm afraid this is not something that we can just slap a few rules on and expect people to interpret the same. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:10, 25 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Again, I just don't agree. We can pretty easily dismiss unreasonable approaches to the subject. And I do think there's a non subjective measure of what's reasonable. With that said, we have a week left, and I don't think the two of us are going to get past this disagreement. I don't see further conversation along the same lines as productive in the context of the thread, no offense. (I don't think it will help admins make their ruling, it will reiterate points of disagreement that we've already covered, and it will, in my mind, add to the length of the thread that people feel obliged to read before commenting.) Hopefully the discussion below will be fruitful! [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:28, 25 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Wow, that time went by quick. And no offence taken. I completely agree that it's probably best we let other people spearhead the discussion from now on. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:54, 25 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
<div class="tech"> | |||
This seems to have stalled ten days ago without a consensus yet. This is important, and although we've now reached the theoretical deadline, '''I'm going to give this an extension'''. the new deadline is '''March the 26th'''. I hope we won't need ''all'' that time, but let's give ourselves some buffer, eh? We need to do this right. As you were! (Or to be more exact: more active than you were, please!) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
</div> | |||
=== Continuation === | |||
With the extension to this discussion and no real clear path forward with regards to warnings because of the very wide scope of these potential warnings. I'd like to suggested a page or a series of sub-pages that cover all the stories that we cover. As everything feeds from the stories. | |||
The page would explain that Doctor Who has been around since the 1960s, it's been produced by multiple people, multiple stakeholders and presents different perspectives and some of it is confronting to a modern consumer. | |||
It may be seen as a cop out a bit, but I think we should state that we as a wiki can't judge stories for content because we're just here to present the information. That the stories are where everything feeds from so the page covers those. | |||
The page will then be a real world page like [[Canon]] or [[Cartmel Masterplan]], with citations, definitions and explanations. Plus probably some sub pages, tables etc to cover different mediums etc. | |||
Any story that's listed would need to be cited, so we're not making a judgement call, or if the community thinks we ''need'' to make a judgement call (that we can't find a citation for) then that should be cited to a talk page / forum discussion. | |||
With a page / table etc with citations that help identify what the content warning might be, we can help state plainly without people needing to read through the article in question, it would mean there's less exposure for people if they get half way through an article an see a warning for a particular section. | |||
Also citing stuff, rather than us making the judgement removes us from needing to make these judgments (or at the very least if we have to make them moves it to easily citable discussions) and helps make this a bit more of an independent judgement. | |||
A link to this page would go on the main page, plus all stories we think are controversial enough, or even all stories if the community thinks that's the best way forward. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 00:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: This is a very interesting proposition and I can already say that I support it, at least in part. A single content-warning template that can be put on all pages that warrant it, and links to this "cheat sheet", sounds like a ''very'' clever solution. | |||
:: I'm not entirely sure about citation, though — whether a story uses a slur, or features sexual assault, etc. isn't in the eye of the beholder. Citations would be good to clear up contentious gray areas if those arise, but I don't think we need nor will feasibly obtain a citation for every story that features a slur or a depiction of sexual coercion or what-have-you. Every TV story maybe, but we need ''everything'' relevantly tagged, a Candy Jar short story as much as a prime-time TV ''Who'' episode. -[[User:Scrooge MacDuck]] 01:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
::: I think that we should agree on specific CW categories in the forums, so that new ones would require discussion (at least an admin closing post on the relevant talk page). This way, for each category, we can have established lines in the sand to follow, rather than leaving it to users to make judgements on individual stories in a vacuum. | |||
::: And I agree that requiring citations for all stories would not be a great idea, for the reasons outlined above.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 01:22, 6 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::The citations is in part to absolve us from needing to make judgement calls, or to head off forum / talk page discussions that have been well gone over. The oft cited ''Talons'' or ''Nekromanteia'' are obvious to people who have seen/listened (and would incidentally be easy enough to find a review or other type of citation that points out the same). | |||
::::I understand it may seem a daunting task to cite all stories, and of course we will likely have to self certify some things, but it's more about shifting some of those identifications to outside sources so we can point to a source and say 'this is how we've come to this information to cite this'. As one of the issues raised above is who can add a warning to a page, if we have it so anything that's on this page need to be cited it adds a requirement for a page having a warning, | |||
::::As the lengthy discussion above has shown there is nuance when trying to work these things out and the more we can cite others' work the less burden it's going to be to explain and show our working on this. | |||
::::And I'm not suggesting we try to leap out of this discussion into a page or pages citing every page, it'll need to be something that will take time to cite and work up. If we go ahead with this we get the frame work in place and then it'll be an evolving article, probably edit locked to new users. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 05:22, 6 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::I've worked up a quick example of what a content warning page / article might look like with some examples of a tabled list, some sections / ideas of how it would be covered etc | |||
::::*'''[[User:Tangerineduel/Sandbox 11|Content warning article (sandbox)]]'''. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:55, 7 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::Is this page for anyone to edit? Because I certainly have some things to contribute to that chart. Also is citing the story itself or the bbfc rating reasonable in cases when a story simply shows something so obviously that there is no debate? [[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
Here are the only pages I can think of that would need content warnings. They all fall under one of three categories, so I think we should do it with 3 different headings. | |||
:1. Racism/Homophobia | |||
::The Crusade | |||
::The Celestial Toymaker | |||
::Talons of Wein Chiang | |||
:2. Exceptionally disturbing story that is of course described in the plot description. | |||
::Jubilee | |||
::Spare Parts | |||
::The Holy Terror | |||
::Creatures of Beauty | |||
:3. R rated content | |||
::Countrycide | |||
::Children of Earth | |||
::Zygon (might not need a warning) | |||
::Cyberwoman definetely has R rated content in the episode but I dont think there is anything on the page. | |||
[[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:25, 12 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
::At the moment it's just a concept so we can get an idea if this is the sort of direction we want to go. It's not currently policy, or even the path we'll take at the end of this discussion (if we don't manage to resolve a way forwards). --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 05:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm not certain that a simple yes/no is sufficient for every story if we're doing a chart. Consider [[Warlords of Utopia (novel)|Warlords of Utopia]]. Its a story about two groups of fascists fighting each other, and our protagonists ''are still fascists''. They still have all the cultural differences that Imperial Rome had, ones we'd almost certainly regard as moral failings, slavery, different standards for what age people get married, treating people like cattle, as well as discussion of all the horrors of Nazi Germany. These things are explicitly called attention to in the story, with one character explicitly being repulsed upon learning some of the context. For a content warning it kinda makes sense because you're informing people so they can avoid subjects they might need to avoid on a personal level. But if we're doing this more expansive discussion we probably need to discuss how each of these stories treat the subjects therein. Some of them do so in a critical, interrogating manner, some do so uncritically. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Honestly, I feel doing content warnings for story pages will be the ''easy'' part. It's how we tackle in-universe pages (and maybe certain real-world pages on certain BtS individuals) that I'm more concerned about. | |||
::::There are some pages where it's pretty clean-cut, like a character who's entire story revolves around them being [[Oswald Danes|a murderous child rapist]], but then you have characters who have an extensive in-universe biography that just so happens to include a dark chapter about them [[Dodo Chaplet|being sexually assaulted and contracting an STD]]. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:45, 15 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::As this discussion goes on, and kinda loops around, I become less sure of some elements – like the chart of stories I suggested above. | |||
:::::I don't think ''any'' of it will be easy. | |||
:::::I think what we will end up with is a page which satisfies no one, and is only vaguely helpful. I think we can define what a content warning is, I think we can talk about the various eras and texts, for example how the Virgin Publishing era really pushed the adult content, how Torchwood also pushed the maturity/adult content. I think we can highlight the classic series with ''Talons'' and other stories. We can explain and explore the various spin-offs and how they've taken the universe in different directions exploring different elements which have explored subjects that the main series might not and those can be confronting or revealing. I think through this sort of page we can provide sources and links off to other pages and other places who can give an indication of content and what they might expect. | |||
:::::But I think there's a lot that comes from reading / watching / experiencing a text, and there is nuance to all of this. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
I do not believe calling Something R rated would be helpful as Doctor Who is a British Show and and in Britain we rate things U PG 12A 12 15 and finely 18 this of course can not be used either as it is not used internally perhaps instead we could go Universal (or General) PG (parental Guidance or Mature?) and Adult content or perhaps we could rate page of an adult nature similar to how AO3 does it G, T, M, E. this would not work for everything and other warnings could be put alongside them, but these could act as a general warning with the more in depth explanation of the stuff in a drop down box?[[User:Anastasia Cousins|Anastasia Cousins]] [[User talk:Anastasia Cousins|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:59, 19 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Parent Page == | |||
As noted in the main discussion, I'd like to revamp what acts as our [[Tardis:ParentPage|current content warning page]], regardless of warnings on individual pages. I have made a [[User:LauraBatham/ParentPage Sandbox|sandbox]] of a very general idea of what I mean, with examples subject to change, and would love some feedback but I don't want to disrupt the main discussion. Ideally, the page would be titled something along the lines of "parental guidelines and content warnings". | As noted in the main discussion, I'd like to revamp what acts as our [[Tardis:ParentPage|current content warning page]], regardless of warnings on individual pages. I have made a [[User:LauraBatham/ParentPage Sandbox|sandbox]] of a very general idea of what I mean, with examples subject to change, and would love some feedback but I don't want to disrupt the main discussion. Ideally, the page would be titled something along the lines of "parental guidelines and content warnings". | ||
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::A valid point. My main issues with the infoboxes was page formatting on desktop. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:58, 23 February 2023 (UTC) | ::A valid point. My main issues with the infoboxes was page formatting on desktop. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:58, 23 February 2023 (UTC) | ||
[[Image:ParentPage problem.jpg|thumb]] | |||
:::Real quick, while we're on this subject: for quite a while now, the parent page has been showing up on my end with the far right end cut off. Laura's sandbox version does too. What's happening here? [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:53, 24 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::: I think it's because of the use of CSS to create a column-like affect which should probably be removed alongside any update to the page's text. This sort of thing often fails on smaller screen sizes. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:35, 24 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::: I did think that was rather odd when I was making my sandbox, but had no idea how to fix it. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:40, 25 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::: (Fixed by substituting <code>width</code> for <code>max-width</code>, so it doesn't force a column width that's greater than your window. That's been bugging me for years, but I never checked where the problem was.){{User:SOTO/sig}} 01:09, 6 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::: @LauraBantham Feel free to echo [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Tardis:ParentPage?curid=143654&diff=3419682&oldid=3386795 that same edit] in your sandbox. I didn't touch that one up, out of courtesy.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 01:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::: Thanks, I appreciate it. Though I have no problem with other people touching up my sandbox by fixing typos and formatting and the like :) [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:34, 6 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
==End of discussion== | |||
As we approach the end of this extended discussion date without a clear path forwards, I thought a summary of a way forward would help wrap up this process. | |||
The [[Tardis:ParentPage]] update would be useful, especially as we move into the Disney+ international distribution era. | |||
As far as content warnings for pages, I'm marking it as unresolved. There are too many unsolvable issues of classification and designation to be resolved at this time. | |||
At the close of this discussion a page [[Content warnings]] will be created to cover the generalities of it, with citations off to various pages, reviews etc highlighting others' analysis of stories. But will only cover content warnings in a general sense, rather than with specific tables or whatever. | |||
If in future other large wikis find a path forward of how to manage warnings we can always revisit this. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 03:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC) |