Forum:Temporary forums/Content warning templates: Difference between revisions

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 == Opening post ==
 Opening this as suggested by [[User:WaltK]]. There isn't currently an opening post draft that I know of, but then, this isn't so much a new proposal as the revival of an ongoing point of community discussion from before the Forums' collapse.
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 Also citing stuff, rather than us making the judgement removes us from needing to make these judgments (or at the very least if we have to make them moves it to easily citable discussions) and helps make this a bit more of an independent judgement.
-A link to this page would go on the main page, plus all stories we think are controversial enough, or even all stories if the community things that's the best way forward. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 00:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
+A link to this page would go on the main page, plus all stories we think are controversial enough, or even all stories if the community thinks that's the best way forward. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 00:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 :: This is a very interesting proposition and I can already say that I support it, at least in part. A single content-warning template that can be put on all pages that warrant it, and links to this "cheat sheet", sounds like a ''very'' clever solution.
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 ::: And I agree that requiring citations for all stories would not be a great idea, for the reasons outlined above.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 01:22, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
+::::The citations is in part to absolve us from needing to make judgement calls, or to head off forum / talk page discussions that have been well gone over. The oft cited ''Talons'' or ''Nekromanteia'' are obvious to people who have seen/listened (and would incidentally be easy enough to find a review or other type of citation that points out the same).
+::::I understand it may seem a daunting task to cite all stories, and of course we will likely have to self certify some things, but it's more about shifting some of those identifications to outside sources so we can point to a source and say 'this is how we've come to this information to cite this'. As one of the issues raised above is who can add a warning to a page, if we have it so anything that's on this page need to be cited it adds a requirement for a page having a warning,
+::::As the lengthy discussion above has shown there is nuance when trying to work these things out and the more we can cite others' work the less burden it's going to be to explain and show our working on this.
+::::And I'm not suggesting we try to leap out of this discussion into a page or pages citing every page, it'll need to be something that will take time to cite and work up. If we go ahead with this we get the frame work in place and then it'll be an evolving article, probably edit locked to new users. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 05:22, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
+:::::I've worked up a quick example of what a content warning page / article might look like with some examples of a tabled list, some sections / ideas of how it would be covered etc
+::::*'''[[User:Tangerineduel/Sandbox 11|Content warning article (sandbox)]]'''. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:55, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
+:::::Is this page for anyone to edit? Because I certainly have some things to contribute to that chart. Also is citing the story itself or the bbfc rating reasonable in cases when a story simply shows something so obviously that there is no debate? [[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
+Here are the only pages I can think of that would need content warnings. They all fall under one of three categories, so I think we should do it with 3 different headings.
+:1. Racism/Homophobia
+::The Crusade
+::The Celestial Toymaker
+::Talons of Wein Chiang
+:2. Exceptionally disturbing story that is of course described in the plot description.
+::Jubilee
+::Spare Parts
+::The Holy Terror
+::Creatures of Beauty
+:3. R rated content
+::Countrycide
+::Children of Earth
+::Zygon (might not need a warning)
+::Cyberwoman definetely has R rated content in the episode but I dont think there is anything on the page.
+[[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:25, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
+::At the moment it's just a concept so we can get an idea if this is the sort of direction we want to go. It's not currently policy, or even the path we'll take at the end of this discussion (if we don't manage to resolve a way forwards). --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 05:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
+:::I'm not certain that a simple yes/no is sufficient for every story if we're doing a chart. Consider [[Warlords of Utopia (novel)|Warlords of Utopia]]. Its a story about two groups of fascists fighting each other, and our protagonists ''are still fascists''. They still have all the cultural differences that Imperial Rome had, ones we'd almost certainly regard as moral failings, slavery, different standards for what age people get married, treating people like cattle, as well as discussion of all the horrors of Nazi Germany. These things are explicitly called attention to in the story, with one character explicitly being repulsed upon learning some of the context. For a content warning it kinda makes sense because you're informing people so they can avoid subjects they might need to avoid on a personal level. But if we're doing this more expansive discussion we probably need to discuss how each of these stories treat the subjects therein. Some of them do so in a critical, interrogating manner, some do so uncritically. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
+::::Honestly, I feel doing content warnings for story pages will be the ''easy'' part. It's how we tackle in-universe pages (and maybe certain real-world pages on certain BtS individuals) that I'm more concerned about.
+::::There are some pages where it's pretty clean-cut, like a character who's entire story revolves around them being [[Oswald Danes|a murderous child rapist]], but then you have characters who have an extensive in-universe biography that just so happens to include a dark chapter about them [[Dodo Chaplet|being sexually assaulted and contracting an STD]]. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:45, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
+:::::As this discussion goes on, and kinda loops around, I become less sure of some elements – like the chart of stories I suggested above.
+:::::I don't think ''any'' of it will be easy.
+:::::I think what we will end up with is a page which satisfies no one, and is only vaguely helpful. I think we can define what a content warning is, I think we can talk about the various eras and texts, for example how the Virgin Publishing era really pushed the adult content, how Torchwood also pushed the maturity/adult content. I think we can highlight the classic series with ''Talons'' and other stories. We can explain and explore the various spin-offs and how they've taken the universe in different directions exploring different elements which have explored subjects that the main series might not and those can be confronting or revealing. I think through this sort of page we can provide sources and links off to other pages and other places who can give an indication of content and what they might expect.
+:::::But I think there's a lot that comes from reading / watching / experiencing a text, and there is nuance to all of this. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
+I do not believe calling Something R rated would be helpful as Doctor Who is a British Show and and in Britain we rate things U PG 12A 12 15 and finely 18 this of course can not be used either as it is not used internally perhaps instead we could go Universal (or General) PG (parental Guidance or Mature?) and Adult content or perhaps we could rate page of an adult nature similar to how AO3 does it G, T, M, E. this would not work for everything and other warnings could be put alongside them, but these could act as a general warning with the more in depth explanation of the stuff in a drop down box?[[User:Anastasia Cousins|Anastasia Cousins]] [[User talk:Anastasia Cousins|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:59, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 == Parent Page ==
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 :::::: @LauraBantham Feel free to echo [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Tardis:ParentPage?curid=143654&diff=3419682&oldid=3386795 that same edit] in your sandbox. I didn't touch that one up, out of courtesy.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 01:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
+::::::: Thanks, I appreciate it. Though I have no problem with other people touching up my sandbox by fixing typos and formatting and the like :) [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:34, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
+==End of discussion==
+As we approach the end of this extended discussion date without a clear path forwards, I thought a summary of a way forward would help wrap up this process.
+The [[Tardis:ParentPage]] update would be useful, especially as we move into the Disney+ international distribution era.
+As far as content warnings for pages, I'm marking it as unresolved. There are too many unsolvable issues of classification and designation to be resolved at this time.
+At the close of this discussion a page [[Content warnings]] will be created to cover the generalities of it, with citations off to various pages, reviews etc highlighting others' analysis of stories. But will only cover content warnings in a general sense, rather than with specific tables or whatever.
+If in future other large wikis find a path forward of how to manage warnings we can always revisit this. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 03:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

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