Forum:Temporary forums/Slurs and derogatory terms: Difference between revisions

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 == Proposal ==
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 ::*Uncle Tom and whether it's best served on its own page or on [[Racism]].
 ::I think there's broad agreement on everything else, if I'm reading the thread right. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:06, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
+On a different note, it's worth noting that the term "coolie" is also used in the [[The War Machines (novelisation)|novelisation of ''The War Machines'']] - while Ben is thinking about the mind controlled warehouse workers, he compares them to "coolies a hundred years ago" or something. Not sure how to cover that one. The Target novelizations have fairly frequent dated uses of racial terms used in a seemingly neutral way, like "Oriental" or "Negro", that we need to address because these would definitely be thought of as slurs if used today. [[User:Pluto2|Pluto2]][[User talk:Pluto2|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:50, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
+::To come back and get into the remaining points of contention:
+::*Splitting Queer & Handling Straight - it's already been pretty much covered by Pluto, that yes I am effectively taking it from a perspective that the two meanings applied are at such opposition that it would be a ''incredibly rare'' circumstance where we should have two separate pages for the term. And I'd be willing to see a split on Straight in similar manner, given what's been brought up here.
+::*"Transphobia" and how best to handle transphobic slurs if the specific term hasn't been used in the DWU. - I've checked ''Doctor Who: Redacted''s transcripts and there is no direct naming of transphobia there. Mentions that made in a manner of implicit concern about that ("Is your gym trans friendly?"), but none outright name it. I am not sure about other sources, or to what degree we can bend T:NO RW on this one. Though to quote from it:
+::: "When real-world elements '''are alluded to in a DWU source, but go unnamed,''' we do sometimes use real-world information to derive a conjecture page title [...] However, this only applies to page names: the in-universe text of the page itself, including the lead, should not employ the conjectural real-world name."
+:::Which would suggest to me on reading that we could create a page named Transphobia, provided we are careful about the wording of contents. (Which I suppose we could easily come to compromise by omitting further direct naming of Transphobia in the article contents until a Behind the Scenes note at the bottom.)
+::*Uncle Tom and whether it's best served on its own page or on [[Racism]]. - In light of further discussions, I am willing to leave this one alone for now & we could perhaps revisit it in some future time on its own Talk page if there is any strong feelings regarding removal of it.
+[[User:JDPManjoume|JDPManjoume]] [[User talk:JDPManjoume|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:31, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
+:: PS - To address Pluto's point about Target novelisations and the language used therein, since I missed it out... "coolie" would be a hard one to place without an exact context to place it within. (If Ben isn't using it in such a manner, then we're stuck in the trap that a page could be made, but with no in-universe linkage to be made there... and for that, we'd have to note the real-world connotations in a BtS note, I'd say. Of course, those such cases wouldn't be getting added to this cate. anyway, and would be their own discussion. ''The Empty Planet'' comes to mind for that: with Clyde using the phrase "honest Injun" - which in reality though an innocently-meant phrase in 2000s usage, actually uses a slur for Native Americans.)
+:: As for the other two, I would say that the latter was already ruled out of existence as a separate page in the last Slurs thread - so that's a case of 'any further usages should be notated in the Racism page, with context.' and the former is likely something we can also apply that same approach to, given other slurs related to South and East Asians that we've already previously ruled out of existence and into consolidation with context at the Racism page.
+[[User:JDPManjoume|JDPManjoume]] [[User talk:JDPManjoume|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:39, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
+== Conclusion ==
+<div class="tech">
+This thread never got quite as big as we might have hoped for, but the deadline has arrived, and I do think there's a reasonable amount of consensus, so we can resolve this, at least for now, instead of writing it all off as unresolved.
+In broad terms, '''we seem to have consensus on the proposal of merging the remaining slur pages listed in the OP by [[User:JDPManjoume]] into overviews of the forms of prejudice they relate to''', e.g. ''[[Blackamoor]]'' into ''[[Racism]]''. The original page-name can then of course be retained as a redirect. This redirect should only ever be linked to in direct quotes from the source text (e.g. ''[[Ben Jackson]] compared the mind-controlled workers to "[[coolie]]s"''), never used in plain language.
+There was a lot of discussion about [[Queer]]. I'm not sure there's a full consensus on whether to view it as one word with two connotations, or somehow two different words. But fortunately, we don't actually have to choose, as such. In light with the wider decision, we wouldn't ''have'' a [[Queer (slur)]] page at all: we'd just discuss it at [[Homophobia]] and [[Transphobia]] (or even at [[Queerphobia]] if we ever have cause to create a page like that). So, we can refocus the existing [[Queer]] page on its use as an identity, listing derogatory uses in a separate, more compact section that points the reader to [[Homophobia]] and [[Transphobia]] to learn more. In turn, those two pages would document derogatory uses of the word in more detail while making it clear that it also exists as a neutral or positive term.
+[[Transphobia]] should definitely be created using a {{tlx|conjecture}} template to justify the name. The lede could read something like "'''Prejudice against [[transgender]] people''' was a pervasive issue in the early [[21st century]]…", making it clear that we don't have a source for the word, although "transphobic" and "transphobia" could then be used in the text of the page later on for the sake of ease of expression.
+The [[Uncle Tom]] case is complicated. Really, it's a fictional character that people are compared to, not a "derogatory term", so I'm not actually sure it belongs in [[:Category:Derogatory names and insults from the real world]] in the first place. It could be discussed, at least in the ''Behind the scenes'' section, at [[Racism]], and the page's ''own'' BTS section should definitely explain context and connotations on its own ''Behind the scenes'' section. But for now I think it had best keep its own page. As [[User:JDPManjoume]] noted, we can revisit that question on [[Talk:Uncle Tom]] if there turn out to be people who feel strongly about it and haven't chimed in on this thread. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:57, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
+</div>