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{{ | {{Archive}}[[Category:Panopticon archives]][[Category:Design changers]] | ||
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: I'm not engaging with your argument because I don't think it's very sound logic. In other words, I don't agree with it. I don't need to "engage" with your logic if I don't share your worldview, simply saying that I think differently is a completely coherent form of responding to a talking point which I think is wrong. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 22:12, 27 May 2023 (UTC) | : I'm not engaging with your argument because I don't think it's very sound logic. In other words, I don't agree with it. I don't need to "engage" with your logic if I don't share your worldview, simply saying that I think differently is a completely coherent form of responding to a talking point which I think is wrong. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 22:12, 27 May 2023 (UTC) | ||
:: The thing I don't understand is that if linking to spin-offs and EU stuff is overwhelming and will alienate new users, how is [[:File:Transmats layout concept.png]] not an issue? It's just doing the same thing but ''all at once'' and with no coherent organisation or theme? It's just '''BAM''' ''Big Finish Class Doctor Who Magazine Torchwood SJA These Are All The Same''. What makes that a design which doesn't turn off potential new users? Just the fact that it's all a big clump of unlabeled stuff, thus those likely to be overwhelmed won't even know what they're looking at? [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 22:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Declining to engage with an argument because you think the logic is poor is the ''opposite'' of what you do. Unless there are defeaters for an argument/belief/position the argument stands. No matter how poor you think the argument is, unless you assign it '''zero''' credence, if there are defeaters to the arguments in favor of the position you hold that you've put forward but not to the argument in favor of the position you don't hold, it wins out. (In this hypothetical the defeaters are, well, defeaters - if there's good responses to the arguments against then it becomes more messy. But given you just haven't done this, it's a moot point.) | |||
:::Finally, at last, we have an argument. "Why do I think TGG's transmat design is less egregious in terms of isolating new users? It's just a big clump of unlabeled stuff." - Putting aside that most of it is labeled to greater or lesser extent. | |||
:::#It does not have a section in its own right, it is the ''bottom of the page'' after giving them advice on where to start with the franchise. | |||
:::#It matches the color tone of the rest of the main page. I know neither you nor [[User:Anastasia Cousins]] likes this, but it makes these things stand out less and be less visually overwhelming. Obviously some level of tweaking can be done. | |||
:::#The abstract nature of the design means that it's easier for users to treat it as ancillary to the main page - something that they can come back to when and if they're more comfortable, something easily ignored. | |||
:::As I'm writing this I'd like to highlight where a potential solution might be and where we differ. Look at [[Forum:Temporary forums/Updating the main page & theme]]. While I really like TGG's updated graphic, and I'm not a fan of how you handled this, it wasn't quite my original proposal, and it's '''''not''''' a design I'm wedded to. What I'm objecting to before any further discussion of aesthetics is the notion that this should ''have its own section'' rather than being a graphic at the bottom of the page and the idea that it shouldn't match the color tone of the rest of the page. These two things are the most likely to overwhelm new users. I have no issue discussing if there should be writing in the circles, labeling the spinoffs - if we should arrange it like TGG's (though I think this is greatly preferable) or in simple lines or some other pattern entirely. I'm not objecting on the basis of aesthetic. I'm objecting on the basis of decisions that are actively hostile to new users. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:57, 27 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Colourful is not a bad thing. And I don’t know who came up with the idea that it is. Many different colours would be a good design and something the world needs. Colours that are '''BAM''' right in your face and standing out is something that is really needed. Not just on the wiki, but in general in the real world. But we can start by colourising the wiki a bit. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:58, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::: To clarify: I’m not 100% anti colour. I personally would just prefer a more restrained, bland colour palette over an ‘everything goes’ approach. But I’m sure there’s a good middle ground to be found. My bigger issue is actually the other thing I mentioned: the amount of detail and elements within each image. Some of the images within OS25’s concept are too visually dense to be effective icons, imo. [[User:TheGreatGabester|TheGreatGabester]] [[User talk:TheGreatGabester|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:30, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::: I agree that having that much detail in the pictures is a problem and I had been hoping it nail that out when we had reach a compromise however it has been made clear that we won’t. So I think we should with with simply having the logos not the cast. I would like to have them in their full original colour, however there is some resistance to this which I understand, so perhaps we should have a colour pallet of three or so colours in which each image is formatted in (of course this has its own problems which I assume are immediately obvious)[[User:Anastasia Cousins|Anastasia Cousins]] [[User talk:Anastasia Cousins|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: I've been trying to wrap my head around this argument and I find the battle-lines rather confusing. As I see it, a major concern with the radiating transmat-graphic is that it would turn off new viewers for being ''confusing'', making the more in-your-face Ottsel design much more newbie-''friendly''. I imagine the not-we looking at that peculiar asymmetrical diagram of interlinked circles bearing unfamiliar logos, and scratching their head at what they're even looking at, and thinking, "man, ''Doctor Who'' is a lot more impenetrable than I thought" — whereas the Ottsel pitch with individual thumbnail would be much more parsable at first glance, what with including pictures of the cast and such; and therefore much more ''accessible'' to the not-wes. It's not that I don't understand the argument about appearing daunting/overwhelming to new audiences, but I would personally assume that to be a much weaker effect than the risks of a home-page which seems ''hard to understand''. At heart our primary duty as a Wiki is to present all the information legibly and accurately; ''obfuscating'' information in some effort to appear more newcomer-friendly seems to me to rankle, as a basic proposal. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 08:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::imo the abstract nature of the design makes it seem less like a sort of rigid presentation of things that you should know about and instead, well, just a graphic that you can pay attention to or not. But, I do want to stress, I'm not wedded to the particular organization TGG has. I think this "stylized" perspective is a plus, but it's not something that's necessary in any way. To me the main points are what I listed as 1 and 2. #3 is just a bonus, and can be jettisoned without issue. If everyone wants circular icons ''like'' what OS25 has, (obviously not directly analogous) so long as 1 and 2 are met, I have no strong objection, though I'll obviously have thoughts and aesthetic preferences. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 09:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::: I myself find myself agreeing with Scrooge. Because the fact that it is very obvious that the EU parts are not needed because of the title “Down the Rabbit Hole, Alice?” In being presented as a question not a statement it is inviting you to have a look but says it it not required. To be this is glaringly obvious. The Alice in Wonderland allusion reinforces this, it is the are beyond what is commonly known. And area of strange imaginative worlds yet one which is not required to understand the main world. The Map layout at the top is more confusing to me and would confuse me even more if I was knew. It has no distinction between the easily observable and a a series which has been out of print longer than I have been alive. Whilst the other one doses distinguish quite clearly. I myself would still add a section above the other TV shows for the main show entitled something like “the core of the series” or possibly something less ambiguous I don’t know what to call it but thats my thruppence. [[User:Anastasia Cousins|Anastasia Cousins]] [[User talk:Anastasia Cousins|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:09, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
Further to my post on 25 May, as noted above: I like OS25's roundel vibe, and whilst I'm a fan of their suggestion, I've put a quick concept together using my own idea of simplifying - I've used promotional images, but kept it to one focus/character per roundel, with relatively plainish backgrounds. Simple, effective, recognisable. (Obviously this was tricky with Class cos it's an ensemble piece - and people may want to debate whether or not a solo image of Harkness/Barrowman is appropriate, but hey.) I've kept the colour but desaturated it a little so as not to be over-powering or too vibrant. | |||
[[File:Spinofftoprow.png|650px]] | |||
I did have a go at making this with just the logos - it works, but it feels a bit lifeless and lacks character (heh). Anyway. Just thought I'd throw this into the discussion to accompany other debates. [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:46, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Still feels far too vibrant to me! :P | |||
:Re: the point above about "Down the Rabbit Hole" - I just don't see how this response makes sense, they've ''already'' scrolled far enough to see the stuff, you are, from a design perspective, mentioning it as an afterthought. Moreover, knowing that there's more to cover, even if not necessary, ''can still be intimidating'' if not presented in the right way. Simply saying "oh, you don't have to worry about this" really isn't sufficient. Having this as a section in its own right is simply unworkable. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
Having re-looked at the "down the rabbit hole" layout above, I also think the core issue is that 10 "portals" in a row is probably just too much in one small space, screen/page-wise. If the top row were to be 4 roundels/shows wide, then I think that design should be the pattern for the EU stuff too. Four in a row, and (sorry) ditch 2 of them. | |||
Since we're also struggling to decide what should appear to start with, could it be feasible to have the first row be 4 of the most current/prominant/recognisable shows (at present: Torchwood, SJA, Class, K9) but change this up if new shows do materialise (say, for example, a UNIT spin off materialised on TV, that'd be bumped into the line-up with a pre-existing one bumped down)? Then two rows of Expanded Universe stuff, four in each, most prominent/recognisable/recent first. I know this is all continuously up for debate, but if we have a simple layout (eg. OS25's rows of roundels), it's super easy to change things around if and when necessary to keep the homepage as revelant as possible. | |||
If we had the fancier graphic, it's more work to tweak/change it, and it also doesn't quite provide the same concept of a 'timeline' - everything seems to have equal prominence, whereas the rows of roundels feel more like stepping stones as to what's more current/recent? I have a feeling people may be against this whole idea, but hey, just throwing it out there. | |||
Alternatively, would it make life a lot easier if we did away with the idea of highlighting individual titles/shows/brands, and instead simplify it down to: TV SPIN OFFS / COMICS / BOOKS / AUDIO SERIES, somehow? Just spitballing ideas, and I'm suggesting this because the show is only going to produce more and more spin-offs as time goes on, which makes the whole prospect of showcasing select items even more daunting and potentially overbearing if we end up with loads that people here believe should be featured. I know some other Wikis have individual boxed off sections (say, one for BOOKS, one for AUDIOS, etc. and then highlight just a couple of recent releases in each one) and do it that way. Dunno! Just ideas and questions :) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:06, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
: Further semi-related question: will the homepage eventually feature, as it does currently, an updated version of clickable character boxes with recent cast/characters? Cos actually, that's the best of both worlds regarding the vibrancy/colour issue in this discussion: all of those images are sepia coloured until you hover over them to click them, when they turn into full colour? That could be a workaround? Or will a new design simply have full-colour images? I'm posing this question here cos if we were to introduce a full-colour version of what's presently on the main page, why would it be so bad to do similar with further image menus further down the page? (Conversely, if the plan is to do a subdued colour scheme at the top with character boxes, then, fair enough, the rest of the menus going down the page should probably follow suit so it all works aesthetically in tandem.) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:14, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:My original proposal for transmat groupings in [[Forum:Temporary forums/Updating the main page & theme]], which was moved away from, was (Off the air TV spinoffs) + (EDAs/VNAs/PDAs/NSAs) + (Book spinoffs that don't license The Doctor, though focused on brands) + (Audio spinoffs) + (Comic spinoffs) + (Potentially one for new TV spinoffs grouped together). Ultimately it was pointed out to me that I did miss some stuff, but the basic principle here is similar to what you're suggesting. | |||
:There was significant disagreement between myself and OS25 about how to proceed with the rest of the mainpage as well. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:18, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: I only just thought about it, but this discussion sort of relies on what the plan is for the rest of the main page too (more so if we opted for OS25's design, I think ... because one thing I would say about the fancier design by TGG is that it would work regardless of what comes before/above it on the main page, and could be dubbed with any colour if it weren't the current sepia/yellow). If the rest of the main page is to be full colour, I think that makes it more agreeable that portals/menus below can also be full colour too, and I would vote for 0S25's concept as presented. If not, then the design of everything should at least be consistent. (Say we did character boxes like we have now but with a blue hue, then I feel similar should happen with whatever comes below - whether that be TGG's graphic in blue, or OS25's rows of roundels in-keeping with an overall blue aesthetic somehow). | |||
:: Tricky one. But I'm very open to the idea of different transmat groupings too, if it made picking and choosing what to feature less troublesome. (It could also feel more or less overbearing depending on your POV but I'm not going into that, given the circular discussions above lol) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm not seeing what's in [[MediaWiki:Mainpage.css]] that's causing the fade in/out, but I don't really do css. Should be possible to replicate anywhere we place them (and, indeed, based on OS25's current code I think it'll just happen -he's using the same box as he is for characters). So the color issue is fixed, good catch. Still against having them as a full section that far up. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:28, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::: I'm no CSS expert either but I think it's the "#gallery filter:sepia(0%); transition: 1s // filter: sepia(1)opacity(.5)" type of stuff. It's relatively simple to do. [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::: As a total sidenote, one thing that does surprise me is that we've not had a transmat graphic done in the shape of the TARDIS itself, which would have 4 rows of 2 (windows, then 6 panels). Seems like such an obvious idea now I've said it. Anyway, back to the discussion lol [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:10, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
Not up to date on the latest arguments, but I wanted to comment that FractalDoctor's version is pretty good. I will say that if you're going to do a single person for Torchwood, go with Gwen. The reason I went with three people for the circles was something of a mental compromise - I didn't want Jack representing Torchwood alone but I felt people would want him there. I also think the Class image I picked is a little better... Class promo photos are pretty weak honestly. | |||
I also don't like the idea of grouping stuff together - the Transmat landings are a mess as it is. Trying to condense ''Sarah Jane'' and ''Torchwood'' into one landing is a very bad idea and ignores that the two shows being polar opposites appealing to different demographics was the main selling point. Having the goofy Disney Channel show and the edgy CW ''sex sex sex sex sex'' show at the same transmat would be weird - let alone combining them further. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 20:14, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Well I was greatly trying to reduce the number of OOU transmats needed and still keep the IU ones. When this approach was abandoned I suggested that we merge Class/TW and K9/SJ. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:36, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
Not saying we should copy, but could we take some inspiration from the [https://tardis.fandom.com/ru/wiki/Doctor_Who_Wiki Russian DW Wiki's main page], maybe? Just trying to nudge this discussion along and open up more ideas. [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">💎</span>]] 17:40, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
Suggestion: What about a consistent-colour border around each roundel? Personally I really dislike the current design's desaturation, I think having actual colours makes stuff jump out in a much more engaging way, but I think a little border and some tweaking of the exact image choices (cf. [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]]'s version, though I think I still prefer the CoE trio for Torchwood) could produce a good balance of harmony and interest. In general I really like [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]]'s primary page design – [[User:TheGreatGabester|TheGreatGabester]], I do love your transmat design aesthetically, but it's hard to argue against the visual simplicity of OS25's roundels. | |||
As for the scope of this particular forum, I understand the logic of discussing the different elements separately, but (especially since the little pop-up thing doesn't link to us any more) I'm ever-wary of getting bogged down in minutiae. At any rate I think there should be a single central forum page for the redesign as a whole, even if it does end up with subpages on specific elements – but also, as we've seen here, the desired function of a particular section is very hard to discuss without simultaneously arguing its place within the whole. | |||
Finally, I would like to put a word in for urgency: sometimes it's easier to make little tweaks once a rough design is actually implemented and can be experienced in practice, and it's a ''really bad look'' to have the homepage so outdated when promo on the specials and next series is so intense. Like, if someone comes to the wiki right now and sees the homepage first, they're going to think we've been dead for over a year – literally the most bare-bones and unexciting baseline homepage would be an improvement from that point of view. [[User:Starkidsoph|Starkidsoph]] [[User talk:Starkidsoph|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:01, 10 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: I think [[User:Starkidsoph|Starkidsoph]] raises a good point about urgency. Whilst I'm against rushing into things, I agree that any newcomers visiting the Wiki will see that outdated homepage and we want to avoid that - more so now that we're getting more and more updates regarding the upcoming era. The homepage even has lines like "It's easy to get into Doctor Who this year! Not only is it a single, six-part adventure..." and "Just jump right in at this year's first story" - which dates the homepage by 2 years at this point, since Flux was 2021 (!) | |||
:: Maybe an updated homepage could be implemented, whilst we work out and debate how best to showcase portals/transmats. We could have relatively simple tables or infoboxes for the time being, so that at least people visiting the Wiki are aware that this place is up to date even if the specifics and aesthetic is still a work in progress. | |||
:: (On a similar subject, we should get a new logo for the Wiki soon too, as a vote is ongoing in its relevant thread. So at least part of the look of the Wiki will be updated soon - I'd like a homepage to follow.) | |||
:: As for the design of the transmat, I wonder if a simple vote could help move the discussion along. Maybe a vote on whether people prefer TGG or OS25's design, held for X amount of time, and then the discussion can move on to whichever wins and how it can look. Otherwise this discussion feels like it could just go on forever, and it's already been going on for a long period of time, across various places. — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 18:19, 10 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Okay. Look. We seriously need to come to some sort of consensus for an update on the homepage, and this is taking too long. Let me suggest a compromise that might not thrill everyone involved - and I promise, it doesn't thrill me entirely either, but compromises can often be frustrating. It arguably violates [[T:POINT]], but for me these are fundamentally the same issue, accessibility and onboarding for returning fans and non fans who are heavily likely to be influenced by our design choices. (As I don't think it likely that those who have already committed to the show will be scared off by our not promoting it enough.) | |||
:::I can live with something between [[User:OttselSpy25]]'s roundels and [[User:FractalDoctor]]'s. Slightly less cluttered where possible (if not possible, that's understandable), cut out the logos, and remove the things that aren't actually spinoffs, even as a section onto itself, if it's at the bottom of the page, below the How To Doctor Who section which ''discusses the basics of the series and why you shouldn't be overwhelmed'' as well as links Quickstart guides, which we're working on in a separate thread. | |||
:::I'm really not happy with this; I think it's alienating to new viewers even still, but if what I suggest next is agreed to I think it's ''manageable''. | |||
:::The top section should be about the current era, no focus on past Doctors on the main page until S14 is over. It has been suggested elsewhere that this is an attempt for me to force people to accepting my design for the next 1.5-2 years. I really, fundamentally, do not care if it follows [[User:Najawin/Sandbox 8]]. I churned that out in ~30 min based on the current design. People can design the rest of the main page however they want to, and we can have another thread for that - so long as it's focused on the specials and then S14. I truly believe that the combination of Gatwa + the return of RtD + the Disney+ deal is a perfect storm of an expansion into demographics we just aren't prepared for as a community and we need to do everything in our power to soften this transition. (Not merely racial; the actor choice + Disney deal is going to do a ''lot'' for causing different people to take it seriously in the US who didn't before.) | |||
:::Maybe I'll be wrong, and in 2 years time you can laugh at how I worried. But I'm not the only one who thinks this, and similar things have happened to other communities. And I don't think I'll have an objection to focusing on other content after the end of S14, the era will be well established at that point and you can highlight other things as well. And maybe you think this is a [[T:POINT]] violation. But I'm just trying to find a compromise here so we can actually update the main page. They're the same issue to me, and this is the more important bit - I don't believe you can isolate them. If people aren't buying it we can go back to discussing the transmats on their own terms. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Totally agree with you about urgency, the compromise seems reasonable. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|📢]] 08:46, 23 June 2023 (UTC | |||
== Conclusion == | |||
<div class="tech"> | |||
This has been a lengthy debate, initially beginning early this year. It has seen a number of proposed designs but, ultimately, only finitely many of them can be included. Factor in differing preferences and priorites, and this sort of thing gets tricky fast. So tricky that, despite spearheading the [[Forum:Temporary forums/Updating the main page & theme|very beginning of this discussion]], I took a step back and just hoped things would resolve themselves. But we can't wait forever so, as [[User:Najawin]] brought up, a compromise is necessary and that's what I've attempted to implement over at the main page, [[Doctor Who Wiki]]. I'll go through it a bit with some commentary: | |||
Starting with the left column, the top is largely based on [[User:Najawin/Sandbox 8|Najawin's designs]]. Making things easy for both new and returning viewers is important and so, hopefully, this can achieve that. I've updated "How to Doctor Who" with some new images. The [[TARDIS]] one remains as it is until a better image can be found. The one for [[comapnion]]s could also likely be improved but I think what's currently there is better than keeping things stuck in the [[Thirteenth Doctor]]'s era. | |||
The next section is taken from [[User:OttselSpy25/Landing page tests|OS25's design]]. It is placed further down to give returning readers something more to obscure while not immediately jumping out at new readers. I decided to add the washed out colours to make the section match better with the rest of the page. It would be good to have another roundel in the "Step Back in Time" section if anyone has any ideas and is able to put an image together. Clutter is a concern that has been raised. I personally think that it's fine as is, but I'm open to suggestions | |||
Following that is the traditional transmats. I think the ideal scenario here would be to repurpose [[:File:Transmats_layout_concept.png|TGG transmat design]] into something focussed on in-universe transmats and use that instead. | |||
Moving on to the right column, it is mostly the same as it was. I've removed the Twitter embded as that was broken and effectively replaced it with a new box on ''[[Doom's Day]]''. As this is a currently ongoing spin-off and one of the main bits of currently releasing ''Who'', it felt appropriate to highlight it. What follows is the same down to the bottom where we meet a reworking of OS25's section on [[the Doctor]]. I think that this works well down here and pads out the page nicely. Above this, we currently have boxes on comics and audios. It might be nice to add to this boxes on novels and maybe games as well. | |||
Obviously, this is a compromise, and it's not perfect. However, it's definetly better and more relevant than what we had. Further minor changes can be discussed at [[Talk:Doctor Who Wiki]] while more major changes should receive forum threads. Feel free to start such discussions if you have ideas. We are not laden to this design and we don't want the page to stagnate like it did previously. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
</div> | |||