Forum:Cite source, a new citation template: Difference between revisions

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Scrooge MacDuck

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-{{Forumheader|The Panopticon}}
+{{archive}}[[Category:Panopticon archives]]
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 == Opening post ==
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 :: I'm happy to say that I have succesfully implemented the accesibility measures discussed at https://accessibility.huit.harvard.edu/technique-expandable-sections and they will appear on the site soon, just pending a JavaScript review. I actually enjoyed doing this quite a lot as it have me an excuse to learn the basics of jQuery, a JavaScript library with a lot of cool features. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:03, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
-::: Quick question? Will this affect [[Speci:WhatLinksHere]]? Would there be any way to avoid every page that cites a work written by, say, [[Lawrence Miles]], from appearing in the links to his page? I've a feeling this bloat may render WhatLinksHere unusable. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 20:16, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
+::: Quick question? Will this affect [[Special:WhatLinksHere]]? Would there be any way to avoid every page that cites a work written by, say, [[Lawrence Miles]], from appearing in the links to his page? I've a feeling this bloat may render WhatLinksHere unusable. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 20:16, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
+:::: Hmm, that's something I hadn't considered as I don't tend to use [[Special:WhatLinksHere]] that much. Yes, it would affect it. I don't think there's a way around that. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:18, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::: To be honest that does sour this a bit. Not remotely enough to make me lose support, considering the amount of effort put in and the good it'll bring, but I would prefer if a solution to that issue is found. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 20:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
+:::::: Updates: @[[user:guyus24|guyus24]], accessibility, at least on Desktop, should all be up to scratch. Everything seems to be working. Mobile is harder due to the lack of JavaScript, but I've done what I can. @[[User:Epsilon the Eternal|Epsilon the Eternal]], despite my initial thoughts, I've found a way to make links not appear in [[Special:WhatLinksHere]], {{tlx|nwlh}}. I've implemented this into {{tlx|cite source}} wherever the link is being pulled from an external infobox (links produced by parameters passed to the template directly will remain on [[Special:WhatLinksHere]] as, I feel, this is more useful). 2 small issues. Firstly, these links will currently open in a new tab by default. I have a fix for this which is just waiting on JavaScript review and should be live sometime on Monday, hopefully. Secondly, this isn't applied to the "[[Template:Cite source#Customising the additional information|Customising the additional information]]" feature. This will need revisiting and potentially massively reworking to implement. However, everything else seems to work fine from my tests. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:50, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
+:::very much in favour. I belive this will allow more precise eraser h for various fan projects which require more precise information than the wiki offers (such as direct quotes or detailed descriptions) [[User:Anastasia Cousins|Anastasia Cousins]] [[User talk:Anastasia Cousins|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:21, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
+::::Fantastic news on the accessibility front. I wouldn't worry too much about mobile either because I believe the tools on mobile are usually better, and at the end of the day being able to expand the cite is just a convenience and the site still functions fine without it. I tried to convert a long-ish page with a heap of citations on it over to this template, but didn't get very far because they didn't have the new infobox on them, so they mostly just errored. It didn't take that much longer to generate, but I expect if it wasn't able to pull from the infobox or the cache then I wasn't getting the full picture. I did forget to take into account that it's Lua though and not a regular MW template when I made my earlier comments, so I imagine that improves the cost of it quite substantially. I would still like to get a full page test up, but I'm not sure how switching over all those infoboxes works with [[T:BOUND]] or whatever. [[user:guyus24|guyus24]] ([[user talk:guyus24|talk]]) 22:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
+: I'd like to give this my full support. I'm also glad to see how ready and willing Bongo is to address and fix any concerns that pop up, which has cleared away the doubts I might've had. [[User:Time God Eon|Time God Eon]] [[User talk:Time God Eon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
+@[[User:Bongolium500|Bongo50]], re: citing ''Dead Romance''. I don't see any need for the MNP reprint to mention ''Virgin New Adventures '' in the expandable at all, unless it says something like "adapted from a Virgin New Adventures novel". Other than that, I can't think of anything else to suggest, this template is just so amazing. Props to the Special:WhatLinksHere fix. [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrahc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:03, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
+:: Regarding stress-testing, we could reasonably switch over a smaller page, measure the performance change there and extrapolate. Regarding ''Dead Romance'', what you're suggesting would require rewriting a lot of the template, if I'm honest, so it's not something I want to leap at doing. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:51, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
+:::In the rare and unlikely case that we want to cite something to the MNP edition of ''Dead Romance'' exclusively, we could easily handle that on the implementation side rather than by changing the template itself: in this case, by creating [[Dead Romance (MNP novel)]] as a redirect page to [[Dead Romance (novel)]] and hiding a {{tlx|Infobox Story SMW}} template there. The citation template will automatically pull the data from the redirect page's template while still linking to the main page. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 15:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
+:::: That is always an option, although using the variants feature would be preferable in my mind. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
+I'm fully in support of {{tlx|cite source}}. I think being able to see more relevant background information about sources without clicking through to the page is a great idea.
+With {{tlx|nwlh}}, I've noticed that when clicking the example links on the template page a new tab is opened for the target article. Is this intentional and can it be prevented if it's fully rolled out? [[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
+: I have written a fix for this using JavaScript. However, all wiki-wide JavaScript on Fandom must pass through a review process which I'm still waiting on. Hopefully it won't be much longer. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:48, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
+:: The fix is now live. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
+I love this, but would love it even more if it would automatically add the prefix, which I find to be the most tedious part of sourcing. -- [[User:Metz77|Metz77]] [[User talk:Metz77|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:06, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
+I'm not very active on this Wikia, but I noticed some weirdness with this template (in the given examples) that I wanted to point out, just in case no-one had noticed. The 's' at the end of "Target novelisations" is not part of the hyperlink (see "Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure with the Daleks" example) and something broke with the "Search for the Doctor" citation, there seem to be square brackets in the wrong place or something. (If this was already noticed, sorry) [[User:BunnygamersAd|BunnygamersAd]] [[User talk:BunnygamersAd|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:04, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
+: I'm not seeing either of those issues. Could you share a screenshot? [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:40, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
+:: [[File:Incomplete Link Cite Source.jpg]]
+:: Yeah, the first one is something I've noticed as well. {{unsigned|Time God Eon}}
+::: Is this still occurring for you? I was able to replicate it on [[Template:Cite source]] and purging the page cache seemed to fix it. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:52, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
+:::: For me it seems to be fixed now, thanks! [[User:BunnygamersAd|BunnygamersAd]] [[User talk:BunnygamersAd|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:09, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
+:::: well, on the template page i still see this [[File:Still borked on the template page.PNG]], but that might still be cached [[User:BunnygamersAd|BunnygamersAd]] [[User talk:BunnygamersAd|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:14, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
+::::: Can you check again. What I think it is is that most of the page caches need clearing following me implementing {{tlx|nwlh}}. This will happen naturally over time of can be done manually which I have just done for [[Rosa (TV story)]]. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:21, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
+:::::: Can confirm, looks perfect, was just the cacheing. [[User:BunnygamersAd|BunnygamersAd]] [[User talk:BunnygamersAd|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:38, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
+::::::: Good. While caching is a little annoying at the moment, it will lead to performance benefits down the line. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
+== Conclusion ==
+<div class="tech">
+Well, this thread has passed the 30-day mark calling for review for a little while — and despite the weightiness of the decision involved, I feel secure in '''closing it in favour of widespread implementation of {{tlx|cite source}}'''.
+This template is simply fantastic, a small marvel of Wiki-engineering combining technical inventiveness with filling a real need regarding how we display the actual ''content'' of the Wiki. It finally allows the dream of the old series prefixes — crisp, precise citation — to be realised without forcing our readership to memorise high numbers of obscure acronyms.
+There is scarcely anything left here for me to settle, as opposed to simply rubber-stamp. This proposal's history is not just a litany of blind support, but a long sequence of various people — from [[User:CzechOut]] to casual, not-we users — reporting concerns or technical issues, and [[User:Bongolium500]] unfailingly engaging with and resolving those issues. Every major issue from mobile compatibility to accessibility to even [[Special:WhatLinksHere]] has been considered — to say nothing of the wonderful {{tlx|store variant data}}, which not only allows us to deal with multiple editions of books and the like, but finally gives us a robust way to cite special editions and animated recons without having to award them separate source-pages. Perhaps other mild technical challenges will arise, but if so, I am confident that smaller-scale threads, or [[Template talk:Cite source]], will be sufficient to resolve them swiftly. Frankly, the current draft of the template is more effective and has clearer guidelines for implementation than many templates that ''currently'' exist in the main namespace.
+An understandable question which has been raised in this thread: will there be standards? What should be the "default" way to cite a given story be? I imagine a ''de facto'' default will be set if Bongolium makes good on his idea of massive bot runs implementing a "basic" version of the template to solo citations of a given story, which, though it won't do ''everything'' for us, will still do a lot. But beyond this, I don't think this is a worrisome question. Editors ''should'' be free to adopt the sourcing which seems most appropriate to a given statement; we are not robots! Just because we strive to be neutral and objective, does not mean we must aspire to turn into lifeless robots! It is already the case that you can cite ‘([[TV]]: ''[[An Unearthly Child (TV story)|An Unearthly Child]]'')’ or ‘([[TV]]: "[[The Cave of Skulls]]")’ depending on what seems most legible and informative in a specific context — or indeed what information you possess at the moment.
+This brings me to another important point: while ultimately we should strive to use {{tlx|cite source}} as widely as possible, '''this does not mean "legacy" citations are banned'''. Perhaps someday the kinks will all be ironed out for good, and we'll revisit this. But until then, when in doubt, there is e.g. nothing wrong with sticking with "([[PROSE]]: ''[[Dead Romance (novel)|Dead Romance]]'')".
+And now, go forth and cite! As always, thanks to everyone who participated — including the many people who chimed in with bug reports or constructive criticisms, and, of course, [[User:Bongolium500]] himself, without whose tireless work this great step forward for the Wiki would not have been possible. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 00:12, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
+</div>

Forum:Cite source, a new citation template: Difference between revisions

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