Theory talk:Timeline - Sixth Doctor: Difference between revisions

← Older edit

Theory talk:Timeline - Sixth Doctor (edit)

Revision as of 06:18, 3 August 2023

20,384 bytes added , 3 August 2023

→‎"Doom's Day - Plastic Population" Added to Timeline Twice

BananaClownMan

40,416

edits

@@ Line 111: / Line 111: @@
 * [[PROSE]]: ''[[The Diplomat's Story (short story)|The Diplomat's Story]]''
 * [[PROSE]]: ''[[Christmas on the Moon (short story)|Christmas on the Moon]]''
-* [[AUDIO]]: ''[[The Nowhere Place (audio story)|The Nowhere Place]]''
-: This is the first time the Doctor mentions his sonic screwdriver to Evelyn.
-* [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Pier Pressure (audio story)|Pier Pressure]]''
-: Evelyn mentions the Doctor telling her about once having a sonic screwderiver, setting this after ''The Nowhere Place''. The Doctor still seems to be somewhat callous about the loss of human life, seemingly setting this before ''Arrangements for War''.
 * [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Doctor Who and the Pirates (audio story)|Doctor Who and the Pirates]]''
 : This story seems to the first in a series of events that leads Evelyn to her breakdown at the end of ''Project Lazarus''.
 * [[WC]]: ''[[Real Time (webcast)|Real Time]]''
 : The first time the Doctor wears his blue coat.
+* [[AUDIO]]: ''[[The Nowhere Place (audio story)|The Nowhere Place]]''
+: This is the first time the Doctor mentions his sonic screwdriver to Evelyn. He is wearing his blue coat, according to the DWM illustration for this story.
+* [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Pier Pressure (audio story)|Pier Pressure]]''
+: Evelyn mentions the Doctor telling her about once having a sonic screwderiver, setting this after ''The Nowhere Place''. The Doctor still seems to be somewhat callous about the loss of human life, likely setting this before ''Arrangements for War''.
 * [[AUDIO]]:  ''[[Project Lazarus (audio story)|Project: Lazarus]]''
 * [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Arrangements for War (audio story)|Arrangements for War]]''
@@ Line 125: / Line 125: @@
 * [[AUDIO]]: ''[[100 BC (audio story)|100 BC]]''
 * [[AUDIO]]: ''[[The 100 Days of the Doctor (audio story)|The 100 Days of the Doctor]]''
-: Shortly after discovering he's been poisoned, the Doctor concludes the he must have been poisoned sometime within the last ten years of his personal timeline. Since the earliest incarnation of himself that he visits is the Fifth Doctor, this means around ten years have passed since his travels with Peri and Erimem up until this point in time. The Doctor is also wearing his blue coat in this story, as indicated by the DWM illustration for this story..
+: Shortly after discovering he's been poisoned, the Doctor concludes the he must have been poisoned sometime within the last ten years of his personal timeline. Since the earliest incarnation of himself that he visits is the Fifth Doctor during his travels with Peri and Erimem, this means around ten years have passed between then and now. The Doctor is also wearing his blue coat in this story, as indicated by the DWM illustration for this story.
 * [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Bedtime Story (audio story)|Bedtime Story]]''
 : The Doctor spends 100 years traveling in the TARDIS, setting this after ''The 100 Days of the Doctor''.
@@ Line 137: / Line 137: @@
 : The Doctor has changed back into his technicolor coat at some point between ''Assassin in the Limelight'' and this story. This story takes place after ''Arrangements for War'' due to Evelyn's comment about jumping from trains.
 * [[AUDIO]]: ''[[The Crimes of Thomas Brewster (audio story)|The Crimes of Thomas Brewster]]''
-: The Doctor loses his technicolor coat and is forced to change into jeans and a jumper. Judging from the cover of the story, he likely ditches these clothes for his blue coat sometime after going back to the TARDIS with Menzies. This seems to be the last time that he wears his technicolor coat for awhile.
+: The Doctor loses one of his technicolor coats and is forced to change into jeans and a jumper. Judging from the cover of the story, he likely ditches these clothes for his blue coat sometime after going back to the TARDIS with Menzies. This seems to be the last time that he wears any technicolor coats for awhile.
 * [[AUDIO]]: ''[[The Feast of Axos (audio story)|The Feast of Axos]]''
 * [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Industrial Evolution (audio story)|Industrial Evolution]]''
 * [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Mission Improbable (audio story)|Mission Improbable]]''
-And this is what I think is the proper order for the Evelyn stories. Unless there are any objections, I'll go ahead and edit the article to reflect these changes, leaving in the original notes, of course, but adding a few of my own notes as well.
+So this is what I think is the proper order for the Evelyn stories. Unless there are any objections, I'll go ahead and edit the article to reflect these changes, leaving in the original notes, of course, but adding a few of my own notes as well. –[[User:Nahald|Nahald]] [[User talk:Nahald|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 09:28, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
+: Cracking detective work, mate. I wholeheartedly support this order of events.[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:39, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
+: I also noticed that the Doctor is wearing his technicolor coat at the beginning of ''The Maltese Penguin'', yet he's back in blue in ''The Wrong Doctors''. I find it far more likely that ''The Wrong Doctors'' comes before the beginning of ''The Maltese Penguin'' and he changes back into his technicolor coat, which he continues to wear until around the time he meets Charley. I'll take some time to make all thse changes a bit later. –[[User:Nahald|Nahald]] [[User talk:Nahald|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:55, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
+:: I believe Real Time absolutely should be left in release order. BF clearly have him switching between both coats for pretty much the entire time he has the blue coat. So it’s fine before The Sandman because there’s loads of other instances of him wearing the coats interchangeably with Evelyn. And really it shouldn’t go after DW and the Pirates, because it interrupts the flow of that story, to Project: Lazarus and then Arrangements for War which work best kept together. The Doctor continues wearing the blue coat for a long time after The Wrong Doctors, with him wearing both coats in the Charley era (and a brand new blue and red coat). He then wears his technicolour coat again with Jamie before returning to the blue for his early travels with Flip. After that he’s not seen wearing it again. So I just don’t see any good reason at all to move Real Time out of release order. You mention how specials aren’t factored into production order and are their own thing, but then drop Real Time down in the middle of a story arc it shouldn’t really be in the middle of. So I strongly believe it should be moved back again.
+:: As for the other changes to the Six/Evelyn timeline. I agree (begrudgingly) about swapping Pier Pressure and The Nowhere Place around as that does make sense, although I’ll be hoping another sonic screwdriver reference pops up earlier in the timeline allowing us to put it back in release order. I also agree about 100, and think it might best be placed in reverse order so that 100 Days of the Doctor goes first and 100BC is last. Maybe Evelyn’s 100 years in stasis could even be the explanation for her out of character appearance in the latter story.
+:: However I’m not convinced by the earlier placements of Medicinal Purposes and Pier Pressure. I don’t feel as though Arrangements for War quite has the same connotations for the Doctor's characterisation that you’ve taken away. At least not in such an impactful way. It’s less about the Doctor changing his ways and more about him and Evelyn learning to be more honest and open to one another. Right at the end the Doctor even says he doesn’t think he can change and Evelyn says that she doesn’t expect him to. Evelyn herself acknowledged that her reaction was more to do with her own growing sense of mortality than truly being alienated by the Doctor's actions. She absolves him of blame here, while he himself can no longer hold back his anguish over the deaths that surround him.
+:: Then in Medicinal Purposes, the Doctor and Evelyn are far more open with each other. They have many discussions about the Doctor’s attitude towards the Burke and Hare murders, and although they come to a disagreement about it, they don’t fall out over it. Evelyn even expresses later in the story how she doesn’t understand the Doctor’s behaviour sometimes, as he’ll act cold one moment and then shocked and upset about something he knew was going to happen the next. This all feels like it thematically follows Arrangements for War. After acting cold towards the deaths of Cassie and Jem, the Doctor suddenly broke down over the deaths in Arrangements for War, deaths that even Evelyn knew were unavoidable. Furthermore this provides an example of how the Doctor and Evelyn have to find a way of living together despite their differences as Evelyn told Rossiter they would in Arrangements for War. Finally at the end, the Doctor and Evelyn are forced to send Daft Jamie to his fate, but together they take a moment to reflect and the Doctor doesn’t try to shut down Evelyn’s emotions which is a far cry from his actions in Project:Lazarus. Is it somewhat jarring to listen to Medicinal Purposes immediately after Arrangements for War? I would say so. But I don’t think it’s impossible for MP to go later, and considering it’s intended to be later I wouldn’t want to move it.
+:: In Pier Pressure, yes the Doctor is somewhat irritable but this is explained as him being melancholy after a few misadventures, something Evelyn is used to and shakes him out of. They have a frank discussion and it feels like a more open depiction of their relationship following the events of Arrangements for War, where the Doctor and Evelyn have a heart to heart and come to understand each other better. Also, Evelyn makes a jokey reference to the events of Doctor Who and the Pirates. So it would have to go right between Doctor Who and the Pirates and Project: Lazarus. In my opinion it doesn’t really make sense to have a story with an upbeat Evelyn joking about the events of that story when really she’s supposed to be upset about it and have building tension with the Doctor. Medicinal Purposes is also said to be a long time ago, although I get the impression that Arrangements for War is still fairly early in their travels.
+:: Overall, I don’t believe that Arrangements for War does depict such a huge change in character for the Sixth Doctor. Thicker Than Water proves that his irritability lasts throughout his entire life and really the cold reaction to deaths is an issue that almost every Doctor deals with and it’s not something exclusive to Six. Arrangements for War is imo more about the evolution of the Doctor and Evelyn’s relationship and how they come to understand each other better and also learn to deal with the problems together. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:43, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
+== Placement of the First Jago & Litefoot Stories ==
+I just got finished listening to Series 3 and 4 of ''Jago & Litefoot'', and I think that those stories are placed ''way'' too late in the Sixth Doctor's timeline. The Doctor in these stories is shown as being irritable and somewhat flippant about the loss of human life like he was before he met Evelyn. I'm not sure if the placement of this story was based on the fact that the Doctor is shown wearing a blue suit on the cover of ''The Hourglass Killers,'' but not only is that very clearly not the same blue suit, he was incognito during his time in Victorian London in order to hide from Kempston and Hardwick. I'm going to move these stories to right before he met Evelyn. –[[User:Nahald|Nahald]] [[User talk:Nahald|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
+== Comic Strips order: the legitimacy of "Stripped For Action?" ==
+I'm very much a casual contributor to the wiki and as such am very unfamiliar with the rules and agreed-upon policies in regards to what is considered a valid source for chronological order. I was therefor wondering whether or not ''[[Stripped for action?]]'' could be cited as reason for the chronological order of the Sixth Doctor comic strips in the same way that ''[[Interweaving with the New Adventures]]'' often is. I realise that the order proposed by ''Stripped'' contradicts some parts of the current timeline but as far as I'm aware, so does ''Interweaving'' and its still cited for several story placement.
+This here is the order as per ''Stipped for Action?'', btw:
+*'''''[[The Twin Dilemma (TV story)|The Twin Dilemma]]'''''
+*'''''[[Attack of the Cybermen (TV story)|Attack of the Cybermen]]'''''
+*'''''[[Vengeance on Varos (TV story)|Vengeance on Varos]]'''''
+*'''''[[The Mark of the Rani (TV story)|The Mark of the Rani]]'''''
+*'''''[[The Two Doctors (TV story)|The Two Doctors]]'''''
+*'''''[[Timelash (TV story)|Timelash]]'''''
+*'''''[[Revelation of the Daleks (TV story)|Revelation of the Daleks]]'''''
+:Peri takes a break from travelling in the TARDIS.
+:*''[[The Shape Shifter (comic story)|The Shape Shifter]]'': [[Frobisher]] joins
+:*''[[Voyager (comic story)|Voyager]]''
+:*''[[Polly the Glot (comic story)|Polly the Glot]]''
+:*''[[Once Upon a Time-Lord (comic story)|Once Upon a Time-Lord]]''
+:*''[[War-Game (comic story)|War-Game]]''
+:*''[[Funhouse (comic story)|Fun House]]''
+:*''[[Kane's Story (comic story)|Kane's Story]]'' (Various titles): Peri re-joins the Doctor
+:*''[[Exodus (comic story)|Exodus]]''
+:*''[[Revelation! (comic story)|Revelation!]]''
+:*''[[Nature of the Beast! (comic story)|Nature of the Beast!]]''
+:*''[[Time Bomb (comic story)|Time Bomb]]''
+:*''[[Salad Daze (comic story)|Salad Daze]]''
+:*''[[Changes (comic story)|Changes]]''
+:*''[[Profits of Doom! (comic story)|Profits of Doom!]]''
+:*''[[The Gift (comic story)|The Gift]]''
+:*''[[The World Shapers (comic story)|The World Shapers]]'': [[Jamie McCrimmon|Jamie]] joins but, an old man, he is killed on [[Marinus]]
+*''[[The Nightmare Fair (TV story)|The Nightmare Fair]]'' (Proposed Season 23)
+*''[[The Ultimate Evil (TV story)|The Ultimate Evil]]'' (Proposed Season 23)
+*''[[Mission to Magnus (TV story)|Mission to Magnus]]'' (Proposed Season 23)
+*'''''[[The Trial of a Time Lord]]'''''
+:Peri leaves. Mel joins the Doctor, somehow.
+So, as far as I know, the release order (at least, for the strips). I know that the strips are basically still in that order on the page but I'm just wondering if it'd be ok to cite ''Stripped'' as a reason for those placements instead of the (sometimes) unreliable release order alone.
+(I also forgot how to sign these things and I'm to lazy to bother, so... sorry for being a troublesome little shit, I guess? You can call me Noob.)
+: Hi Noob, welcome to the timeline pages. I think the reason we don’t cite stripped for action here is because the placement is fairly clear on it’s own, compared to the seventh Doctor strips which interweave with the virgin novels so it helps to mention that they’ve specifically been placed in that order by DWM. Whereas with the Sixth Doctor comics, we know that they take place years after The Two Doctors, feature Peri's transition from her Season 22 appearance to her Season 23 appearance, and most of the stories run consecutively.
+: So maybe I’d just stick a reference to stripped for action on the entry for The Shapeshifter, just to 100% clarify that it’s set between seasons. I don’t think there’s much point in doing it for the rest of the run because we know it must take place before Trial without having to be told that.
+: I personally try to avoid going by stripped for action because there’s a lot of unnecessary solo gaps crammed in without explanation for how the Doctor is travelling without a companion, and a lot of stuff is blatantly wrong particularly with the Fourth Doctor order. Plus in terms of this timeline, there’s absolutely no way that the lost stories take place before these comics. But then, those stories didn’t really exist in any completed commercial form at the time this list was made so their actual continuity wouldn’t have been taken into account anyway.
+: So yeah, maybe cite stripped for action on The Shapeshifter but I’d leave it at that. Also, if you want to leave your signature, just type four tildes (~).
+[[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:23, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
+::Thanks, I was mainly asking because I don't quite see any reasonning for, say, ''[[Salad Daze (comic story)|Salad Daze]]'' to be placed where it is besides release order. With all the info we're given in the story itself, it could take place at any point from ''Nature of the Beast!'' to even after ''The World Shapers''. (Unless ''The Maltese Penguin'' does state either explicitly or implicitly that Frobisher left because of Jamie's death. I haven't listened to it yet.) We don't see Peri in Time Bomb so for all we know she could've had long hair then. The only in-story reason I can think of that indicates Peri just started having her ''Season 23'' look in ''Salad Daze'' is the "6th September 1986" easter egg, which would seemingly imply a metatexual connotation of "this is gonna be Peri's new look in Season 23" but that is one huge stretch if I've ever seen one. Big Finish has taught me not to take the release order at face value so I'm just looking for an official and/or narrative confirmation for the release order. ''Stripped for Action?'' seemed to be it.
+::[[Special:Contributions/173.176.173.131|173.176.173.131]]<sup>[[User talk:173.176.173.131#top|talk to me]]</sup> 12:19, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
+: Ah, but you see with DWM its always release order as a rule. The only exception is when they revisit a Doctor after their tenure ends (like the Ninth Doctor’s recent TLV comic). Big Finish as well is mostly release order. Like they’re made with the idea that it’s release order, it’s just sometimes they’re not always narratively consistent and you end up with continuity errors. Comics are a fairly different situation to audios or short stories because they’re written (for the most part) as an ongoing series featuring those characters whereas with audios and short stories it’s often more of a one shot situation. So I would definitely say that all the DWM comics should stay in release order and we don’t need to provide evidence that they’re supposed to be placed that way.
+: Like, if you feel strongly about it, go ahead and cite stripped for action on the timeline. But I don’t personally feel like anyone is going to be unsure of whether those stories take place in release order. And honestly I’d argue that release order can be taken at face value most of the time, and when it can’t that’s when we need to mention it. Like there’s no in-universe reason for them to be moved, and as I say, release order in the DWM comics is the correct order. 14:16, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
+== Suggested Choose Your Own Adventure book Placements  ==
+While naturally not a major priority for a good few reasons (they're considered non-valid sources on the wiki, they're hard to get a hold of, very few care) I think the Make Your Own Adventure books (and the FASA one) could be better placed; as is, they seem to be just scattered across the Timeline randomly.
+As this is a fairly big edit (even if one I doubt most care about) I feel it's best to get feedback from you all before I go ahead and actually change anything.
+To verify that I have actually read these things (other than the fact I can't see anyone bothering to lie about it) is that [https://mysite.science.uottawa.ca/rsmith43/cloister/#6DOC I'm the person who's doing the Cloister Library write-ups for them.]
+Going in release order:
+[[Search for the Doctor (novel)]]
+The Doctor is travelling alone and behaves kindly. The POV character is a random young boy the future. Omega and Drax feature, but I don't believe their appearance here contradicts any other stories. Current placement is fine.
+[[Crisis in Space (novel)]]
+The current placement says that Peri has her Mysterious Planet haircut on the cover, but I don't really see it. The reader's POV character is a young boy implied to be from present day Earth deliberately named Chris (atypically for a CYOA book, as they're typically meant to feature a completely generic blank slate); Chris recognises the TARDIS, knows the Doctor and is deliberately picked up to take part in the adventure, as opposed to randomly coming across the TARDIS.
+[[The Garden of Evil (novel)]]
+The Doctor is travelling alone and behaves kindly. The POV is a random boy from a future Earth. Current placement is fine, but the fact it was only released months after Search for the Doctor makes me want to put them closer together.
+[[Race Against Time (novel)]]
+This is written by Pip and Jane, so the Doctor and Peri spend a lot of the wordcount irratingly bickering. The POV character is an unnamed young boy implied to be from present day Earth, already knows the Doctor and Peri, and is again deliberately picked up to take part in the adventure. The Rani's in this one, but I don't believe it contradicts any other stories.
+[[Mission to Venus (novel)]]
+The POV character is an unnamed young boy (again, implied to be from present day Earth) who is actively travelling in the TARDIS with the Doctor and Peri. The trio knows each other well enough for multiple endings to rely on them pre-emptively guessing the others actions and responses.
+[[Invasion of the Ormazoids (novel)]]
+The POV character is an unnamed young boy from present day England. 'You' and the Doctor have never met before this adventure. In the good ending, the Doctor leaves and hints that he'll take 'you' on more adventures.
+[[Doctor Who and the Rebel's Gamble]]
+Peri is depicted with her Mysterious Planet haircut, and (because this was originally written for the Fourth Doctor, Sarah and Harry before the publisher's changed it last moment) a retired Harry is travelling with them. This one isn't on the Timeline yet.
+This is admittedly conjecture, but I feel like it only makes sense to assume the 'young boy from present day Earth' POV character is the same across the line.
+My only real arguments in favour of this are Occam's Razor/tidyness (those books get placed closer to each other on the Timeline), the fact that the boy is illustrated as looking the same across the books, and the fact that the books featuring that character follow a progression of the boy's knowledge about the Doctor/Peri. I have absolutely no proof to claim that this was intentional on the part of the publishers.
+So, my proposed re-ordering would be:
+* [[Search for the Doctor (novel)]]
+* [[The Garden of Evil (novel)]]
+(Except for putting them closer together, no big changes so far)
+* [[Invasion of the Ormazoids (novel)]]
+(Under this hypothetical reordering, this could be placed in 'Travelling Alone', before 'First travels with Frobisher' as Peri isn't mentioned.)
+* [[Crisis in Space (novel)]]
+* [[Race Against Time (novel)]]
+* [[Mission to Venus (novel)]]
+(Peri is there, so I'd simply bunch these three together under 'Final Travels with Peri.')
+* [[Doctor Who and the Rebel's Gamble]]
+(Simply just near The Mysterious Planet.)
+My apologies if this was too big of a wall of text, but I've been pondering this for a good while now. Will naturally clarify anything if I have to! {{Unsigned|MalkHeartsStories}}
+: Honestly no one has put any effort into properly placing these stories yet, and you clearly have a solid handle on what's going on, so I say just go ahead with the change. In fact I was wondering if the "unnamed boys" could be the same character (or at least 2 different characters) before I reached the part where you mentioned it yourself, so I agree that it makes perfect sense to assume that to be the case. Some degree of conjecture is fine on these timelines :-) [[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:41, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
+== "Doom's Day - Plastic Population" Added to Timeline Twice ==
+Is anyone able to explain why Plastic Population has been added twice? One of which is under awaiting placement while another has already been added to a section including a short description.
+I noticed a clown that looks like the Sixth Doctor on one page, but the one who helps Doom is in an astronaut costume.
+Feel free to say whether it's an accidental duplicate, or if it's intentional. [[User:BritShadow|BritShadow]] [[User talk:BritShadow|☎]] 18:52, August 2, 2023 (UTC)
+:: I'm afraid I must confess as the guilty party here. I hadn't noticed that it had already been added. Must have missed it in my notifications. [[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:18, 3 August 2023 (UTC)