Talk:Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration: Difference between revisions

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 This really takes the cake. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 11:28, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
-::To elaborate briefly, in light of the [[:Category:The Doctor's regenerations|mature ecosystem]] of regeneration pages, I'm tempted to recreate [[Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration]] per [[T:WIKIFY]] alone. But I won't, because it goes deeper than that. To answer one closing statement with [[Talk:The Master/Archive 8#Towards a compromise|another]],
+::To elaborate briefly: in light of the [[:Category:The Doctor's regenerations|mature ecosystem]] of regeneration pages, I'm tempted to recreate [[Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration]] per [[T:WIKIFY]] alone. But I won't, because it goes deeper than that. To answer one closing statement with [[Talk:The Master/Archive 8#Towards a compromise|another]],
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 ::: There is significant sentiment that the "Dhawan Doctor"'s history, appearance and significance should be discussed on their own page, separately from our coverage of the [[Spy Master]] and the [[Thirteenth Doctor]]. However, there is also significant sentiment that it would be wrong to characterise him as a ''person'' separate from the Spy Master, or as ''precisely'' "an incarnation of [[the Doctor]]". I am not here to litigate which sentiment is correct on the latter front: I don't think we all will ''ever'' reach a consensus on that without further evidence. We could be here all week arguing about whether the Doctor-Master is more like [[the DoctorDonna]] or more like the [[Tenth Doctor (Journey's End)|Metacrisis Doctor]] and we would, in all likelihood, still get nowhere.
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 ::: Huh? ctr+f-ing “alias” on [[Talk:The Master/Archive 8]] yields only my own mention of "alias pages like [[Harold Saxon]]" — and that was a different thing entirely (I was mentioning alias pages right alongside [[Bad Wolf (entity)]] as examples of a broader class of pages whose precedent the custom [[thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration]] event-page could be seen as setting itself). What are you talking about? [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 00:41, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
+::::The IP user's comment. It's brought up and gets no traction whatsoever. People just ignore it. Technically there are only two responses after, but it's explicitly brought up as an alternative+additional angle and wasn't brought up, like, weeks later. Discussion just petered out because ''nobody agreed with the suggestion and we already were okay with the compromise for the time being.'' [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:51, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
+::::: Najawin, you're reading your own opinions into the text of the conversation! With sample size of n=1, discussion on that page stopped because I didn't think the IP user had brought up anything new – Scrooge's proposal, which as you describe was ratified by community consensus, ''already'' explicitly recommended "something like […] pages about aliases like [[Harold Saxon]]"; further citation of [[Razor (World Enough and Time)|Razor]] and [[Emil Keller]] added nothing. (In this light I think your tallying of that IP user's vote should be reconsidered.) So it goes way too far to conclude that "nobody agreed with the suggestion" on this basis. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 18:06, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
+I don't think this is quite right, Scrooge uses the term "alias", whereas the IP user talks about how these are "personas", and how he embodies "characters".
+:there's loads more articles making a precedent for deep dives into specific personas (ex: [[Razor (World Enough and Time)]], [[Emil Keller]]). Sacha talks about his Doctor as being a discrete "character" masking the Master character, which is true in the episode due to the Master acting and dressing different during the time he's '''the''' 14th DR. ∴ Master!Doctor could be covered as a regeneration in respect to Jodie and a disguise in respect to Sacha.
+If anything it seems to be a suggestion that we should reinterpret our approach to how we treat aliases of the Master, because the suggestion is that they're often not simple aliases. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
+::"Persona" vs "alias" strikes me as a distinction without a difference. The second sentence of [[Harold Saxon]] describes the page's topic as a "constructed persona [used] as an alias". And your ''in media res'' quote of the IP user carefully omits how they introduced their comment as an elaboration on how "The earlier compromise message mentioned Harold Saxon for a second". – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 16:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
+:::Because there are two readings of that? One to either use the page as it exists as a contrast, or one to use it specifically to riff off of. It's irrelevant unless you already buy the other reading. Also, even your quote suggests that there ''is'' a distinction between personas and aliases. "constructed persona [used] as an alias" suggests that aliases do not always have associated personas. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:39, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
+::::Right, sorry: a distinction without a difference in regard to our coverage, not in regard to the definitions of the words "alias" and "persona". – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 17:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
+[[Death's Champion]] seems to be a counter example, no? [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC)