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DWM's way of titling is pure hard cope, and stubbornness on their part. They also started being awkward about series numbering a while back (anyone remember when a front cover said "Series 2 with Matt and Karen") and now tend to say awkward things like "the 1986 series" on occasion. They feel like an outlier. I'd say most people know these stories as "An Unearthly Child", "The Daleks", "The Edge of Destruction" and "The Massacre". | DWM's way of titling is pure hard cope, and stubbornness on their part. They also started being awkward about series numbering a while back (anyone remember when a front cover said "Series 2 with Matt and Karen") and now tend to say awkward things like "the 1986 series" on occasion. They feel like an outlier. I'd say most people know these stories as "An Unearthly Child", "The Daleks", "The Edge of Destruction" and "The Massacre". | ||
Recently, we started to pave the way for locating things much more easily on here, with regards to names like "the Saxon Master" etc. And whilst there was debate, I feel as though the best solution is "what would most people search for?" and I feel in this case, the shortened version of the title is the one most known and used. The Target novelisation goes with "The Massacre", our evil twin cousin Wikipedia uses "The Massacre", The Lost TV Episodes Collection soundtrack CDs go with "The Massacre", the BBC Radio audiobook goes with "The Massacre" (the booklet admittedly goes with both titles), the official doctorwho.tv website has the longer title in its URL but simply uses "The Massacre" as the title on the story page itself<ref>https://www.doctorwho.tv/stories/the-massacre-of-st-bartholomews-eve</ref>, and the old BBC cult website has it as "The Massacre" too.<ref>https://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/massacre/</ref> The other official BBC website also refers to it as "The Massacre".<ref>https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00v25r7</ref> | Recently, we started to pave the way for locating things much more easily on here, with regards to names like "the Saxon Master" etc. And whilst there was debate, I feel as though the best solution is "what would most people search for?" and I feel in this case, the shortened version of the title is the one most known and used. The Target novelisation goes with "The Massacre", our evil twin cousin Wikipedia uses "The Massacre", The Lost TV Episodes Collection soundtrack CDs go with "The Massacre", the BBC Radio audiobook goes with "The Massacre" (the booklet admittedly goes with both titles), the official doctorwho.tv website has the longer title in its URL but simply uses "The Massacre" as the title on the story page itself<ref>https://www.doctorwho.tv/stories/the-massacre-of-st-bartholomews-eve</ref>, and the old BBC cult website has it as "The Massacre" too.<ref>https://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/massacre/</ref> The other official BBC website also refers to it as "The Massacre".<ref>https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00v25r7</ref><ref>https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00v25k5</ref><ref>https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00v25m5</ref> | ||
We could wait for the DVD / blu-ray but what if it follows suit of other products which use the short title and the longer title (eg. the short title on the disc but then the longer one in the booklet)? And is the blu-ray any more or less 'official' than, say, the official doctorwho.tv website? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:06, 1 April 2023 (UTC) | We could wait for the DVD / blu-ray but what if it follows suit of other products which use the short title and the longer title (eg. the short title on the disc but then the longer one in the booklet)? And is the blu-ray any more or less 'official' than, say, the official doctorwho.tv website? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:06, 1 April 2023 (UTC) | ||
:: ''"If it were up to me, we WOULD list An Unearthly Child (TV story) as 100,000 BC. And I have the feeling that we may someday soon."'' I wanted to respond to this separately from up thread, to say I hope not. I feel this would be a step backwards. This Wiki has long used those titles now and has arguably helped more fans get to know those stories with those titles. I won't go into the whole debate here, but if/when a fan goes to buy the "Beginning" DVD boxset, I feel it would be strange if we're referring to "100,000 BC" when the most widely agreed title these days is "An Unearthly Child" (with the DVD, and presumably to-come blu-ray cementing that). Is there no way we could somehow add an infobox or a disclaimer at the top of appropriate 1960s stories page to inform readers that some stories have different titles according to different sources, to alleviate confusion? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:15, 1 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
: I would like to note that the latest DWM issue once again uses ''The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve'', so I '''support''' renaming the page to have the "long" title. [[User:Pluto2|Pluto2]][[User talk:Pluto2|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:29, 6 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: Yeah, but they also called Clyde Langer Clive Langer so can you trust em? Also official cd release > old guard writing the dwm. [[Special:Contributions/81.108.82.15|81.108.82.15]]<sup>[[User talk:81.108.82.15#top|talk to me]]</sup> 09:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
The Massacre as a title is pure revisionism, if DWM thinks the full title is correct I trust them. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 16:47, 19 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
: ''Doctor Who Magazine'' uses ''100,000 BC'', ''The Mutants'' and ''Inside the Spaceship'' for the first three stories of season 1. These are the original names, but that's not how they're remembered. They're now known as ''An Unearthly Child'', ''The Daleks'' and ''The Edge of Destruction'', which are the names that the DVD releases and the wiki uses, so their usage isn't always typical. [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:52, 19 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::In general I prefer using the correct names for things, but at a certain point the false memory of a community takes on a life of its own and no amount of wiki editors trying to insist that the correct name is something else will change that. This happens with words and phrases as well (cf "begging the question", it hurts me every time). I don't know if "The Massacre" is one we can fight. But there's absolutely no way we're changing people's minds on "An Unearthly Child" and "The Daleks". Erase that from your mind. No. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::: I'd also add that it doesn't seem that ''Terror of the Vervoids'' was the actual name of the story. It was commissioned as ''The Ultimate Foe'' and Pip and Jane referred to it as ''The Vervoids'', but the novelisation was later released as ''Terror of the Vervoids''. There's "pure revisionism" with several story names. [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::My understanding is that ''all'' the "stories" of season 23 were named conjecturally based on the novelisation. Similarly, Najawin I'll note that "An Unearthly Child" unambiguously refers to the first episode of the serial either way, and allowing episode pages a la comic book episode pages, in addition to properly-named serial pages, might let us square that circle while also going into more detail in our coverage (see [[User:NateBumber#Ideas]] for elaboration). But we're drifting ''way'' off-topic here; let's save it for the forum thread. The fact is that ''The Massacre'' is much more straight-forward than any of these other cases, as it's a simple abbreviation of the proper name rather than something wholly different. I don't think there's any theoretical or practical reason standing in the way of adoption. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 17:23, 19 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
I still think that this page should retain the title "The Massacre (TV Story)" for reasons argued above. My only alternative suggestion would be to implement a way to add 'alternate titles' into certain Wiki pages, so it could be "The Massacre (TV Story)" followed by "(Sometimes referred to as XXX)". | |||
You know how we have those boxes atop some pages which cite errors, or stuff like "This article needs a big cleanup." ~ My thinking is that we could create a new box, just something small but noticeable, which could showcase the fact that sometimes Doctor Who stories have used alternative titles. Doesn't have to be a huge essay, just a simple line or two, and then perhaps ending with "However, for the sake of recognition, this Wiki opts to use X title." | |||
Personally, I don't know if I'd care for something like that, but it was just a thought to throw in. — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 22:01, 25 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
I oppose renaming the page. The discussion above has demonstrated to my satisfaction that the wiki's rules about naming are irreconcilably self-contradictory in this case, and that being the case I think "The Massacre" has the best claim, being the most commonly used title today (not least by the BBC). In any case, I think this is an entirely separate case from An Unearthly Child, The Daleks, and The Edge of Destruction — all of those are ''current official titles'' of the stories according to every modern means of consuming them, whatever appeared on their production paperwork. As others have said, I'd reconsider renaming this page if we were to get a home video release that used the full original title or the more accurate abridged title. [[User:Metz77|Metz77]] [[User talk:Metz77|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Dead link 2 == | |||
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case! | |||
* http://www.recons.com/recons/lc16.htm ([http://web.archive.org/web/20210125202848/https://recons.com/recons/lc16.htm archive]) | |||
** In [[The Massacre (TV story)]] on 2023-04-17 16:36:22, Not Found | |||
** In [[The Massacre (TV story)]] on 2023-04-18 15:48:19, Not Found | |||
** In [[The Massacre (TV story)]] on 2023-04-19 16:29:16, Not Found | |||
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** In [[The Massacre (TV story)]] on 2023-04-24 17:42:11, Not Found | |||
The web page has been saved by the Internet Archive. Please consider linking to an appropriate archived version: [http://web.archive.org/web/20210125202848/https://recons.com/recons/lc16.htm]. | |||
--[[User:Botgo50|Botgo50]] ([[User talk:Botgo50|my talk]], [[User talk:Bongolium500|operator's talk]]) 17:42, 24 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
Corrected. [[User:Metz77|Metz77]] [[User talk:Metz77|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC) | |||