Talk:Dust Devil (audio story): Difference between revisions

Talk:Dust Devil (audio story) (edit)

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→‎Suggestions and Talking about future articles (Spoilers for Key to Key to Time): new section

PepsiMagnet

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 :::This much is true, I meant (with no offense) that the pages' deletion rationale was wrong. As they are, they don't have much to stand on, so I'll fix that. And as a kind note to new user [[User:PepsiMagnet]], if you create a new page it should have more than an infobox and categories. [[Tardis:Stub|Stubs]] are okay sometimes, but the page still needs to have content. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:26, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 ::::Having not listened to the audio I was unaware of whether they were analogues or not. But, again, I don't mind them being removed. No worries. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:36, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
+:::::I've had a look at [[Tardis:Merging policy]] as well. It's great that we now have a definitive rule page to refer to when discussing how to cover alternate reality versions of "prime universe" characters. Hopefully we can use it to finally wrap up this discussion.
+:::::At the risk of potentially repeating earlier points I've made, I just want to go through all the characters that we seem to be discussing as to whether or not they should have their own pages, and my personal takes on them. I would like to know, however, how much weighting there is in personality differences between an alternate reality character and their "prime universe" counterpart.
+:::::Firstly, the aberrant Sixth Doctor that appears heavily in ''Dust Devil''. While he's effectively a carbon-copy of the Sixth Doctor from the "prime universe", the series of events that he goes through in ''Dust Devil'' seem to take a heavy toll on his personality that I feel could be somewhat difficult to incorporate into the Personality section on [[Sixth Doctor]], as such information would not be relevant to the "prime universe" Sixth Doctor specifically. Admittedly, I'm not sure if differences in personality such as these are sufficient enough on their own to warrant the creation of a separate page, but even if they aren't, this aberrant Sixth Doctor also briefly appears again in ''The Key To Key To Time'', during which the Warrior says "Dalek saucer? Did they destroy it? Did the Daleks rescue me?" - these exact words are said by the aberrant Sixth Doctor in ''Dust Devil'', and the same scene is repeated in ''The Key To Key To Time''. In the latter story, the Warrior notes that he's said those words before, and has been to Aridius before, then outright says "that was me, down there, on the planet." Similarly, within ''Dust Devil'', Miss Brown openly states that the Warrior "is" the aberrant Sixth Doctor. While this could be interpreted as a case for merging the aberrant Sixth Doctor's info with the Warrior's page, the fact that the aberrant Sixth Doctor experiences completely separate events from the Warrior, and is killed without the Warrior also dying, suggests to me that it would be best to give aberrant Six a separate page from anything else. I'd propose calling it [[The Doctor (Dust Devil)]], as he's never outright called "the Sixth Doctor" at any point in either of his stories, nor is he named as such in the credits for them.
+:::::Next, there's the aberrant versions of Peri Brown and the Doctor's TARDIS, also from ''Dust Devil''. I'm not sure if these two really have enough unique info to give them separate pages from [[Peri Brown]] and [[The Doctor's TARDIS]], respectively. However, the aberrant Peri is acknowledged by Miss Brown, in a way, during her conversation with aberrant Six in his "tomb" on Aridius. Miss Brown openly claims that she's never met aberrant Six before she started hunting him with the Temporal Bullets, with aberrant Six initially mistaking her for his timeline's Peri. Furthermore, a bit like with aberrant Six, her experiences in ''Dust Devil'' might allow for her to have her own Personality section, maybe? It might not be super long, but it could include aberrant Peri's thoughts on, for example, the distress she feels at seeing London being destroyed by the Temporal Bullets, or her not being as upset at the aberrant TARDIS' destruction as aberrant Six. As she's not from the Warrior's universe, but an aberrant timeline, like aberrant Six, I'd say if she got her own page, it should be called [[Peri Brown (Dust Devil)]], as she's called "Peri Brown" in the credits for ''Dust Devil''. I think similar points could also be made regarding the aberrant TARDIS, so maybe [[The Doctor's TARDIS (Dust Devil)]]? It's worth noting that it's never outright stated that Peri and the TARDIS are from an aberrant timeline necessarily - the Temporal Bullets are targeting aberrant Six - but nothing in any of the ''Doctor of War'' stories says otherwise, so it's probably fair to say that they are from an aberrant timeline. By that same logic, while they're not outright said to be from the same aberrant timeline as aberrant Six, there ''also'' isn't anything saying they ''aren't''.
+:::::Next, Sarah Jane Smith and Harry Sullivan. There are actually two versions of Sarah and Harry to deal with - the two of them from ''Dust Devil'', and two from the end of ''The Key To Key To Time''. As per [[Tardis:Merging policy]], and as has been already said above, I'd say all of these variants can be covered on [[Sarah Jane Smith]] and [[Harry Sullivan]], respectively, as there's not enough info on them all to warrant making separate pages for them; they're basically just carbon copies from different realities and that's it. The versions that appear in ''The Key To Key To Time'' are only ever called "Sarah" and "Harry", which could be briefly mentioned in the "other realities" sections of these pages.
+:::::Regarding the Fourth Doctor, again, if personality differences have any weight here, I'd say give him his own page. The Fourth Doctor's feelings and reasoning for why he chooses to destroy the Dalek incubators, as well as his reaction to learning that he failed and started the Time War as a result, seem significant enough to me that they should be kept distinct from the "Personality" section on [[Fourth Doctor]]. Do the differences between this Fourth Doctor's cause of regeneration and that of the "prime universe" Fourth Doctor have any bearing here?. Either way, he gets brought up a lot by other characters in the other ''Doctor of War'' stories, which are worth acknowledging, but could get a bit bloated if simply left in [[Fourth Doctor]]'s "other realities" section. Naming wise, a separate page for this alternate Fourth Doctor could be called [[Fourth Doctor (the Warrior's universe)]]. I might not have that quite right grammatically-speaking though...
+:::::I've got some more points I want to make regarding more alternate reality characters from ''The Key To Key To Time'', but it's nearly 3AM on my end so I should really go to bed for now. Glad to see things are progressing here anyway![[User:Thalek Prime Overseer|Thalek Prime Overseer]] [[User talk:Thalek Prime Overseer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
+:::::Okay, so continuing from my 3AM marathon, there's a bunch of characters from ''The Key To Key To Time'' that we should also address as well.
+:::::In particular, numerous Doctors from alternate realities appear at the end, in the scene where the Warrior is inside the Great Lock of Time, viewing all the different versions of the Time War across the multiverse. There's a version of the Doctor that says the Fifth Doctor's final words - "I might regenerate. I don't know. Feels ''different'' this time." - but is played by Colin Baker (well, all the alternate Doctors here are). He's not given a unique name, or any unique info beyond that line, so it's probably best to just briefly mention him in the "other realities" section of [[Fifth Doctor]] and [[Sixth Doctor]]. Though it is the Warrior viewing these realities, and not the Doctor of the "prime" universe, so ''maybe'' they should go on [[The Warrior]] instead? Or both? Is it policy that all info on alternate reality counterparts of "prime universe" characters that don't have distinct pages should have their info covered on their "prime" counterpart's "other realities" section, and not on any other alternate reality counterparts' page?
+:::::Aside from this, there's also the Pilgrim and the Wanderer, two alternate counterparts of the Doctor that appear briefly in this scene as well. Both have distinct names, plus they both get a quick line in as well - with the Wanderer having a dog called Splinx, who seems to be a robot - so they could maybe get their own pages. They're also both name-dropped by the White Guardian in an earlier scene, where she lists the two of them as among the many versions of the Doctor in the multiverse that are involved in the end of the Time Wars of their realities. They wouldn't have very big pages, but nevertheless, I'd say they should have one each. We could mention them briefly in the "other realities" section of [[Sixth Doctor]] as well.
+:::::It's also worth bringing up the very end of ''The Key To Key To Time'' as well, in which the Warrior seems to "become" a version of the Fourth Doctor from the end of ''Genesis of the Daleks'', and he, Harry and Sarah all leave the Dalek bunker with the Time Ring. Harry and Sarah don't seem to think he's any different from usual, even though it's Colin Baker playing the Doctor here and not Tom Baker, but then in the post-credits scene, the Warrior reveal that he hasn't actually left the Great Lock of Time. He's still there, and says "sometimes I remember, I haven't left this lock. This cave. For the war is always starting, always ending." While it's not super clear as to what's happening here, my guess is that the Warrior isn't actually "becoming" these Doctors, but is being literally immersed in their lives so that he thinks he's them - then occasionally remembers that he's not actually ''in'' those scenarios, but is actually still trapped in the Great Lock of Time. I'd say this alternate Doctor should go under the "other realities" section of [[Fourth Doctor]], as well as serving as the end of the Warrior's biography on [[The Warrior]].
+:::::Finally, I just want to bring the "the President". I have no doubt that they should have a unique page, as they're a unique individual, but I'm not sure if calling them [[Romanadvoratrelundar (The Key To Key To Time)]] is the best name for them, as they claim that they're only "a fragment of them, anyway", and that "we gave ourselves to the Collective Victorious." But "the President" is merely an alias they use, and although that's the title that all the other characters use to refer to them - with the Warrior doing so even after finding out their true identity - even "the President" themselves says "oh, I am so much more than that."[[User:Thalek Prime Overseer|Thalek Prime Overseer]] [[User talk:Thalek Prime Overseer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:34, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
+::::::Apologies for taking so long to get round to this - life just keeps being busy - but I've realised that I think (at this point) we're trying to work out whether the Warrior's universe is ever referred to as a universe or a timeline. I could be wrong here, but assuming that is the case, I'll say what I know.
+::::::So, as far as I'm aware (and I've listened to the ''Doctor of War'' stories numerous times now), the Warrior's universe is never explicitly referred to as a "timeline". "Universe" is the term most commonly used to refer to it. Other terms used include "reality" in a few instances, and at least one point where "dimension" is used. The Warrior's universe is never referred to as a "parallel universe" or "alternate timeline" specifically, although in ''The Key To Key To Time'', the White Guardian describes the Warrior as "a deviant of the timeline". While this is referring to the Warrior, not his universe specifically, it's worth considering, as the Warrior is frequently cited as the individual responsible for starting this new version of the Time War and being indirectly responsible for everything that occurs within it - something which the White Guardian themselves confirms is true. So this probably holds some weight, although I'd argue that the dominant use of "universe" to describe the Warrior's reality means that it should be the primary term used to describe his reality.
+::::::Another instance where the word "timeline" is used is in ''Aftershocks'', when the Master explains to the Warrior how a Carrisent Particum works: "it has the potential to trap an entire timeline within it. The timeline and everything connected to it, however loosely." In this context, I believe "timeline" refers to the Warrior's own personal timeline - his passage through time - rather than a distinct reality, as otherwise, the Master probably wouldn't need to specify that the Particum traps everything connected to the timeline - if it traps an entire reality in there, wouldn't that happen anyway?
+::::::Alternatively, if we're trying to work out what kind of reality the Warrior's universe was prior to the Fourth Doctor blowing up the Dalek incubators, there's nothing from the ''Doctor of War'' stories that really helps here. Any info we get on the Doctor's life prior to attempting to avert the creation of the Daleks also applies to the life of the N-Space Doctor (e.g. both fought the Old Ones/Great Old Ones in some form prior to their mission to undo the Daleks' creation, both attended the Academy with the Master). The only divergence I can find between the two is Gharman's absence from when the Fourth Doctor contemplates genociding the Daleks at the start of ''Dust Devil'', which is never addressed at all. While we could try applying existing info on how alternate timelines work to argue that this makes the Warrior's universe an alternate timeline diverging from N-Space, many stories - such as the ''Doctor of War'' stories -  regularly refer to alternate timelines as being the same thing as parallel universe, alternate dimensions, etc. So I don't think existing info on alternate timelines/parallel universes/etc would really help this discussion.
+::::::Beyond this, I'm a bit stumped at this point. I'm really not sure how else to progress this discussion, so it would be nice to wrap it up soon. It's been going on for nearly a year now.
+::::::(On a final related note, I disagree with my previous concern that naming the page of "the President" [[Romanadvoratrelundar (The Key To Key To Time)]] would be somewhat inaccurate, as it's the only name we have for the character that's more than just an alias or nickname).[[User:Thalek Prime Overseer|Thalek Prime Overseer]] [[User talk:Thalek Prime Overseer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:52, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
+== Suggestions and Talking about future articles (Spoilers for Key to Key to Time) ==
+I think that if an article about the Doctor (not the Warrior) from Doctor of War were to be made, it would be called The Doctor (The Warrior's universe), and it would only pertain to the Fourth Doctor's role in Dust Devil, and the reset reality in Key to Key to Time (which I'll refer to as Doctor of War Destiny episode 3 or Key to Key to save time). Also The Warrior's universe (and Colin's universe) might be needed to be renamed to The Warrior's reality (and Colin's reality). Although, there are some differences between Genesis and Key to Key, possibly suggesting that the Fourth Doctor looks like the Warrior (although this is a possibility, I am open to it being like when Davros only saw the Fourth Doctor when in the forest outside of time).
+-[[PepsiMagnet]] 12/29/2023 10:30am