Forum:New Torchwood Team

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Why is it that Esther, Rex, and Vera are in the category "Associates of Torchwood Three", but not "Torchwood Three Personnel"? Rex and Esther at least have both been referred to as being in Torchwood on many occassions, and they have been acting as the Torchwood team throughout this season.Icecreamdif 06:21, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

I would say that they were put in that category based on the early eps of the series, where they still were officially CIA. They've probably not been changed because there's a huge question of whether they are Tochwood Three at this point, or just simply Torchwood personnel. I mean, the Three bit seems awfully pretentious at this point. As has been made clear throughout the series, Jack and Gwen are it as far as Torchwood is concerned.

I think we've just been struggling to come up with a name for this group, as evidenced by Forum:What do we call the post-Miracle Day Torchwood?, and I don't think we'll truly have an answer for that until the final scene of episode 10.

I'd say the wisest course of action — that is, the one involving the least amount of work for us — is to revisit this whole issue in late September.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 02:58:02 Tue 23 Aug 2011 

If its because we haven't decided whether or not to call them Torchwood 3 yet, then shouldn't we stop using the categories for allies and enemies of Torchwood 3? It just seems weird to me to say that Rex and Esther are allies of Torchwood 3, but not to say that they are members of Torchwood at all.Icecreamdif 23:38, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

Transitions are always displeasing. Those who were happy see things changed and are miserable. Those who want change never get exactly the change they want. Calm and good will will carry us through. Boblipton 00:29, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

I actually recall in multiple episodes, Gwen refering to the new team as "Team Torchwood" and "New Torchwood Team". It does seem as though they are only called Torchwood, and that Torchwood Three was destroyed in Children of Earth. I think we should wait two weeks until the final episode to make the change. Rassilon of Old ^{(Talk - Contribs)} 09:15, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, given that the series will probably be over before any consensus can be reached, there's really no good reason not to just wait. --173.228.85.35 17:53, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Well, The Blood Line is out now, and I'm not really sure if their's anything in the episode that helps with this problem. It is left ambiguous as to whether or not Jack and Gwen would reform Torchwood. Rex didn't seem to be planning to stay with Torchwood, but his newfound immortality might change things. Esther's dead so she obviously won't be a more permanent member of Torchwood. So, should we say that the version of Torchwood that appeared throughout Miracle Day was Torchwood Three, or just Torchwood, or come up with some new name for it. If they aren't Torchwood Three then a lot of the nav boxes and categories need to be changed.Icecreamdif 05:49, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I always interpreted "Torchwood Three" as meaning the group which was based in the Hub in Cardiff. Even in Children of Earth they were still the Torchwood Three team because although the Hub had been destroyed, the same team was still working as a team. After Jack left and Gwen went domestic, Torchwood Three was no more.

After Gwen and Jack met back up they were once again being referred to as "Torchwood" by others and themselves, but this wasn't a reformation of Torchwood Three specifically; the Hub (which was only called Torchwood Three to differentiate it from the other branches) was long gone, as was anything else calling itself Torchwood. Thus the Jack & Gwen team, later the Jack/Gwen/Rex/Esther/Vera team, were simply "Torchwood."

I don't think "Torchwood Three" as an organisation has any place in narrative post-Children of Earth; the "Three" had been a holdover from when there was something to be division three from after Jack severed all ties, and the reformed Torchwood in Miracle Day is not known to have used the term at all. On this wiki, as in the narrative, I think they should just be referred to as "Torchwood," though we might like to disambiguate it to "Torchwood (Miracle Day)" or similar to distinguish it from the original organisation. Rob T Firefly 22:24, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I agree. From the end of the series, it seems like if there is a continuing Torchwood, it won't be the same Crown-sponsored organization with government ties that Torchwood Three was a part of, it'll be Jack and Gwen working with whoever they choose to gather together, to whatever ends they choose. They don't seem inclined to call it "Torchwood Three" (since they never said it once during the series), and nobody has more say than them. Off-camera, I don't remember seeing "Torchwood Three" anywhere on the BBC site, or hearing it in any of RTD's interviews. So, I'm inclined to agree with Rob T Firefly. --173.228.85.35 06:15, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

I'd go as far as saying that the "Torchwood Institute" (the organization working with the British governemnt and sponsored by the Crown) ceased to exist after Children of Earth and what now exists, reformed during the events of Miracle Day is the "Torchwood Team" (this term has been used on screen). "Torchwood Team" or "Torchwood team" is not the ideal name, but I think that considering it a successor, but not a direct continuation of the Torchwood Institute (which everyone in the series itself agrees has ceased to exist) would make sense. The new Torchwood was never and will likely never be referred to as an "institute" again. So I think it would be best to say on the Torchwood Institute page (and Torchwood Three page) that the institute ceased to exist in 2009, but its surviving members continued to operate as the Torchwood Team (or Torchwood team, or Torchwood (team)). Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 13:58, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Nah, don't like it. This is the legitimate successor to the Torchwood Institute, a point made very clear in Miracle Day. "Torchwood (team)" is very ambiguous, as "Torchwood team" could equally apply to any configuration of personnel working for Torchwood. Yvonne Hartman uses the word "team" to apply to T1, right at the beginning of the whole Torchwood narrative, and I'm sure the word "team" has been applied since. This should be all on the Torchwood Institute page. It's still the institute. Nothing has legally invalidated the Torchwood Charter, as far as we know. For that matter, Torchwood Three should be a section on the Torchwood Institute page, with a redirect from Torchwood Three to Torchwood Institute#Torchwood Three.

I think the problem here, really, is that Torchwood, according to our disambig policy should be at Torchwood (TV series), freeing up the article Torchwood Institute to move to Torchwood, which would thereby invalidate the need for this "finding a name" nonsense. I think we can all agree that all iterations of Torchwood are "Torchwood". If the pages had been originally created with the proper name, we wouldn't be in this mess.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 18:35:56 Sun 11 Sep 2011 

Actually, if anything, it is made very clear in Miracle Day that the Torchwood Institute doesn't exist anymore. To quote Rex "It's just a name these days. Just kinda works as a code word to connect us, that's all." Just because it includes two former members of the Torchwood Institute doesn't mean it's a formal continuation of it, just like Ianto having survived the destruction of Torchwood One didn't mean that he was formally the head of T1 now. You mention the Torchwood Charter, but the fact it that the new Torchwood team is no longer financed by the Crown nor "accountable to the Government". It's just a group of individuals that keep using the name, that's all.

As for the name "Torchwood team", it's not great, obviously, and has been used to refer to previous versions of Torchwood in the past as well, but "Torchwood team" is probably the only term used on screen (no, it's not conjectural) to refer to the current incarnation. As opposed to "Torchwood Institute", which has not been used to refer to the current team - the only times it's heard in Miracle Day is when referring to the old organization that has been destroyed. There's no evidence to suggest that the current Torchwood is actually still the "Torchwood Institute". Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 18:50, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Gwen isn't even a former member of the Torchwood Institute; she joined up after Jack had already severed all ties with the Institute and reformed Torchwood Three as a self-contained entity. The only one left in the present day that we know of with any sort of connection to the "Torchwood Institute" is Jack, and he deliberately broke away from it before the timelime of Torchwood the series. Rob T Firefly ⋅ ∇Δ ⋅ 20:47, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Even when Jack broke ties with Torchwood One, he and his team still operated as the Torchwood Institute, cooperating with the government, police etc, especially that after the destruction of Torchwood One, Torchwood Three effectively became the Torchwood Institute. The Institute ceased to exist in 2009, during Children of Earth. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 07:12, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with CzechOut. If we just move Torchwood to Torchwood(TV Series) and move Torchwood Institute to Torchwood, then it won't really matter if the new team is technically part of the institute. We can just put all of the information on the Torchwood page.Icecreamdif 19:00, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

I take your points, Ausir, but "Torchwood team" isn't a clear term. There are plenty of "Torchwood team"s out there. Just to pick entirely random bits of Torchwood prose, I've got various compositions of the nominal "Torchwood three" described as the "Torchwood team". From the first three and totally random selections on my shelf, there's:

The three other remaining members of the Torchwood team gathered round ... (PROSE: Kaleidoscope)

Just because she had the most obvious 'real' life out of the Torchwood team . . . (PROSE: Into the Silence)

There was no way past those big red-headed guys. The conference phone was within reach now — was there anyway of dialing the Torchwood team fast enough before he was stopped? (PROSE: Pack Animals)

Another point is that there is no definition of the team in Miracle Day without reference to the preceding organisations. It is an organic part of Torchwood 3. The two aren't really divisible from a narrative sense, especially because, as far as we know, the Torchwood Charter is still in effect. This information should just be on a single page called "Torchwood", because it's a single organisation. Miracle Day just describes the nadir of that organisation.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 19:55:44 Sun 11 Sep 2011 

Well, even if the Torchwood Charter is formally still in effect, the current "Torchwood" team clearly is not operating under the Charter in any way. I do agree that it might be best to move "Torchwood Institute" to just "Torchwood", although I also think that the current team deserves a new page. And we still need a name for it, separate from "Torchwood Three", to be used in navboxes etc. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 20:19, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the best way out of this semantic headache is to just put everything about the organisation(s) known as "Torchwood" - Institute, Hub, Miracle Day, etc. - all at the Torchwood article, note the history and changes in the single article, and let the readers make their own judgments from there. Rob T Firefly - Δ∇ - 21:22, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

We don't know that the new Torchwood team will not go back to operating under the Torchwood charter in future seasons. This season they were in America for the most part, which wasn't really in Torchwood's juristiction, and the American government, partly influenced by the families, decided that they didn't want Torchwood there. Torchwood could therefore hardly officially reform the institute, but now it may be possible for them to do so.Icecreamdif 20:57, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

For the purposes of maintaining this wiki, it's not our place to speculate or worry about what might happen in future episodes; we're only able to report on the currently known narratives. If something comes up in the future to make us reconsider the way we have things laid out here, we can deal with it then. Rob T Firefly - Δ∇ - 21:24, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, you have a point. I was just poining out that Ausir seems convinced that there is no way that this Torchwoood team is connected to the original institute which isn't necessarily true. Still, if we just talk about Torchwood instead of The Torchwood Institute or Torchwood One or Torchwood Three or Torchwood (Team), then it doesn't really matter. The new team is still Torchwood whether or not it is funded by the crown.Icecreamdif 21:41, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

So, CzechOut's suggestion would satisfy everyone's objections, be easy to do, and remove a violation of the disambig policy… is there any reason _not_ to do it? --173.228.85.35 04:55, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

The Miracle Day variation of Torchwood is called Torchwood. It is not the institute, it is not Torchwood Three, it has been refered to as Torchwood Team, New Torchwood Team and Team Torchwood throughout Miracle Day, but never Torchwood Three, so I think that settles that argument.

Also, Ausir is correct, Miracle Day Torchwood it is no longer a part of the Torchwood Institute, which was destroyed by the British Government during Children of Earth. It is even stated by Rex in "Rendition" that Torchwood is no longer affiliated with the Torchwood Institute; "... someone's made a link between that old institute of yours and the Miracle, and now they want to kill you for it." The Miracle Day Torchwood should be titled either Torchwood or Torchwood Team. It is not a matter of whether you like the name or not, that is its name, and that is what the article will be called.

I agree with the renaming of Torchwood to Torchwood (TV series), but that Torchwood Institute remain as it is named, and Torchwood (team) be renamed Torchwood or alternatively Torchwood Team or Team Torchwood. Rassilon of Old ^{(Talk - Contribs)} 06:36, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how you get around the fact that — within all Torchwood narratives, other configurations of Torchwood are also called "the Torchwood team". The phrase simply is neither unique nor formal in any sense. And, anyway, you can't describe what the Miracle Day Torchwood is without explaining its connection to Torchwood Three, which you can't explain without underlining its relationship to Torchwood One, which you can't explain without emphasising its connection to the Torchhwood Institute. In my view, it's all one thing. Now having said that, I do see the point of having an aricle at Torchwood Three, just to define the term. But the average non-fan user of the site will be far less confused by having the bulk of the material in one article, named Torchwood.

I'd also strongly disagree that the "new" Torchwood isn't the Torchwood Institute. Again, there's nothing whatsoever to indicate that the charter has been revoked. The clear implication of Children of Earth is that the British government fell to politicians friendly to Torchwood. And the money used by Jack to set up Torchwood in the US is still coming from funds derived from the Crown ("in a bank account accruing interest from the 19th century" or so the line sorta went in ep 3 of MD) Jack can say all he wants to in this series that Torchwood's dead and whatnot, but he doesn't have the power to kill it. Torchwood is not indivisible from Jack. As he is not Queen Elizabeth II, he doesn't have the power to declare Torchwood dead. It may be de facto dead, but it's not legally dead. And since COE really made clear the legal underpinnings of the organisation, we can't just ignore the Torchwood Charter when writing up our articles. The Charter is still intact, as far as we know, so the Torchwood Institute is still alive. Miracle Day simply depicted the very nadir of that organisation.

All that said, if this discussion leads to a consensus for maintaining most of the history of the organisation known as "Torchwood" at Torchwood Three and a page for the "new" Torchwood, then the only disambiguated term allowable by policy would be Torchwood (Miracle Day). Personally, I think that's confusing as hell, given that there's an actively-used redirect to series 4 at Torchwood: Miracle Day. But that's your option. Put everything on Torchwood in a neat article that travels down through the history of the organisation — or split it up and end up with an article called Torchwood (Miracle Day) sitting alongside Torchwood: Miracle Day.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 15:49:24 Mon 12 Sep 2011 

I don't think "in a bank account accruing interest from the 19th century" necessarily refers to financing by the Crown. After all, Jack could have had funds of his own being deposited in a bank since the 19th century. And whether the government or Jack has the power to declare Torchwood dead under the Torchwood Charter is not really relevant, because they are not operating as part of the Torchwood Institute under the Charter "accountable to the government" and under orders from the Crown, but are simply using "Torchwood" as a codename. At this point, regardless of whether the Institute still exists or not, Jack and Gwen are its former members as of 2011. They might officially re-establish the Institute (which is not "alive", it was destroyed, even if never formally closed down) in the future, but during all 10 episodes of Miracle Day, the Institute stayed dead. It being "just a codeword" and the institute being dead has been stated several time on screen and was not contested by any of the other characters, so stating otherwise is just speculation. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 17:45, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether or not the institute is dead. Throughout Miracle Day, Jack and Gwen may not have been part fo the Torchwood Institute, but they were still Torchwood. The Torchwood page would just have to say that after the events of Children of Earth, Torchwood continued to operate as an organization independant of the original institute, with Jack, Gwen, Rex, and Vera as members, and then they can all be referred to as members of Torchwood even if they weren't part of the Torchwood Institute.Icecreamdif 18:44, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think all of these remaining little problems left over after CzechOut's move can be solved by, as Icecreamdif says, describing them in the article. As long as we can explain (in-universe) why we call the new team "Torchwood", and make sure all of the details are dealt with (what connection if any they have to the Institute and Queen Vic, etc.), it's perfectly reasonable to call them "Torchwood". Someone who thinks he has a handle on all of the issues just needs to go edit the article, and then see whether anyone has any remaining objections. --50.0.128.155 23:27, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, the move shouldn't have been implemented until the discussion was 100% complete, but in any case...

I understand, there is no evidence that the Charter was revoked, but I'm not saying that. Torchwood Three was destroyed at Cardiff Millenium Centre in Children of Earth: Day One. Just because Torchwood was destroyed, does not mean that the Charter was discontinued. We also know, that the funds for the Miracle Day team come from Jack's bank account, as seen in Dead of Night after Gwen buys equipment and clothes, and jack explains "it's been gathering interest since 19--." I don't remember the third and fourth digits, I currently don't have a copy of that episode.

Rex even says that Torchwood is dead, in either Escape to LA or The Categories of Life he says that it's "just a word to connect them". Torchwood is gone, kaput, this team just operates under that name. The Charter still exists, there is just nothing for it to be 'chartering' at the current time. The Miracle Day Torchwood was an independant organisation, the only connections between it and the Institute/Torchwood Three is Jack and Gwen, but that isn't enough to assume that the Institute is still operational. Rassilon of Old ^{(Talk - Contribs)} 13:20, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but that doesn't matter. The Torchwood Institute may no longer be operational, but Torchwood was still operational throughout Miracle Day. If the page is simply title Torchwood, then part of the article can just say that after Torchwood Three was destroyed, Jack and Gwen started a new team that wasn't part of the original institute, and then itcan just go on to describe some of the significant aspects of the season. Icecreamdif 14:54, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Yep, sounds good. :) Rassilon of Old ^{(Talk - Contribs)} 20:40, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Just to interject a point here, the administrative move of Torchwood > Torchwood (TV series) was mere housekeeping, and actually had nothing to do with this discussion. Under our disambiguation policy, the page at Torchwood, should never have been about the TV series, in exactly the same way that the show about K9 Mark 2 is called K9 (TV series). That move was necessary, irrespective of this discussion. This discussion merely reminded me that it was one of many page moves that I needed to make with the bot. In the past, we had no real ability to change page names. So we've been stuck with Torchwood at the wrong page for years. Now, though, such moves are easy, and I routinely make several dozen disambig corrections every week.

Announcements about the name switch both at this forum, in community messages, and on some people's individual talk pages very clearly pointed to this discussion and stressed that the discussion about what to do with Torchwood (team) was very much still ongoing.

Now, onto another point about in-universe matters. The whole point about the Dead of Night "money" conversation, to me, is that ties into TV: Fragments. There, it is clearly established that the only reason Jack is persuaded to join Torchwood at all is because he needs money. We see the cash actually exchange hands between Torchwood and Jack. So we know that Jack's money does quite literally come from the Crown, and that he has no other known source of income. Yes, fine, it might be his own personal money, but it's still from his pay for working for Torchwood. It might also be something directly from the 1901 budget of Torchwood which he had stashed away in a rainy day fund. Point is, we don't know whether it's personal money or a smart line item in the official Torchwood budget, "for when the shit hits the fan". When you're an immortal time traveller, there's not a heck of a lot of material difference between your salary and budgetary allowance, anyway. All we do know, for certain, is that Torchwood was Jack's sole source of income back at the turn of the last century.

Also, if the Charter's still there, and the British Government is now in the hands of people friendly to Torchwood — which is clearly the point of the final Whitehall scenes of COE — there is absolutely no reason to assume that he's not still getting paid. It's made absolutely clear, in DW and TW, that Torchwood is outside the control of the British government, anyway. He'd have to piss of QE2 to stop getting paid, and we've got no evidence of that.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 14:37:32 Fri 16 Sep 2011 

Even if this issue isn't why you moved The Torchwood Institute to Torchwood, moving it still does solve this problem. We can put information on the new Torchwood on that page, wheteher or not it has been officially reformed. Queen Elizabeth would probably start funding Torchwood again if they asked, but they probably stopped getting money after Children of Earth, and they didn't exactly have a chance to ask for funding during Miracle Day. If they make another season I'm sure we'll get a better answer though.Icecreamdif`

In a continuation of the first bit, why are Rex, Vera, Esther, Friedkin, the Families etc. under Torchwood Three-related categories at all, when all there was to Torchwood was more of a legacy and codeword that brought Jack out? Editors on the Torchwood Three page seem insistent that Rex and Esther are Torchwood Three (which I do realise IS almost never used outside of Everything Changes). -- Tybort (talk page) 15:01, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

That was basically my original point. For some reason, Rex and Esther can't be considered "Torchwood Three Personnel," but The Three Families and even Oswald Danes are considered "Torchwood Three Enemies." i don't really care what we do about this, but it should be consistent.Icecreamdif 19:05, September 21, 2011 (UTC)