Forum:New Torchwood Team: Difference between revisions

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+{{archive|Panopticon archives}}[[Category:Category issues]][[Category:Discussions without clear resolution]]
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 Why is it that Esther, Rex, and Vera are in the category "Associates of Torchwood Three", but not "Torchwood Three Personnel"? Rex and Esther at least have both been referred to as being in Torchwood on many occassions, and they have been acting as the Torchwood team throughout this season.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 06:21, August 12, 2011 (UTC)
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 :I think we've just been struggling to come up with a name for this group, as evidenced by [[Forum:What do we call the post-Miracle Day Torchwood?]], and I don't think we'll truly have an answer for that until the final scene of episode 10.
-:I'd say the wisest course of action — that is, the one involving the least amount of work for us — is to revisit this whole issue in late September. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}&nbsp;<span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''02:58:02 Tue&nbsp;'''23 Aug 2011&nbsp;</span>
+:I'd say the wisest course of action — that is, the one involving the least amount of work for us — is to revisit this whole issue in late September. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''02:58:02 Tue&nbsp;'''23 Aug 2011&nbsp;</span>
 If its because we haven't decided whether or not to call them Torchwood 3 yet, then shouldn't we stop using the categories for allies and enemies of Torchwood 3? It just seems weird to me to say that Rex and Esther are allies of Torchwood 3, but not to say that they are members of Torchwood at all.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 23:38, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
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 :Nah, don't like it.  This is the legitimate successor to the Torchwood Institute, a point made very clear in ''Miracle Day''.  "Torchwood (team)" is '''very''' ambiguous, as "Torchwood team" could equally apply to any configuration of personnel working for Torchwood.  [[Yvonne Hartman]] uses the word "team" to apply to T1, right at the beginning of the whole Torchwood narrative, and I'm sure the word "team" has been applied since.  This should be all on the Torchwood Institute page.  It's still the institute.  Nothing has legally invalidated the [[Torchwood Charter]], as far as we know.  For that matter, Torchwood Three should be a section on the Torchwood Institute page, with a redirect from Torchwood Three to [[Torchwood Institute#Torchwood Three]].
-:I think the problem here, really, is that [[Torchwood (TV series)|Torchwood]], according to our [[dab|disambig policy]] should be at [[Torchwood (TV series)]], freeing up the article [[Torchwood Institute]] to move to [[Torchwood (TV series)|Torchwood]], which would thereby invalidate the need for this "finding a name" nonsense.  I think we can all agree that all iterations of Torchwood are "Torchwood".  If the pages had been originally created with the proper name, we wouldn't be in this mess.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}&nbsp;<span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''18:35:56 Sun&nbsp;'''11 Sep 2011&nbsp;</span>
+:I think the problem here, really, is that [[Torchwood (TV series)|Torchwood]], according to our [[dab|disambig policy]] should be at [[Torchwood (TV series)]], freeing up the article [[Torchwood Institute]] to move to [[Torchwood (TV series)|Torchwood]], which would thereby invalidate the need for this "finding a name" nonsense.  I think we can all agree that all iterations of Torchwood are "Torchwood".  If the pages had been originally created with the proper name, we wouldn't be in this mess.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''18:35:56 Sun&nbsp;'''11 Sep 2011&nbsp;</span>
 ::Actually, if anything, it is made very clear in ''Miracle Day'' that the Torchwood Institute doesn't exist anymore. To quote Rex "It's just a name these days. Just kinda works as a code word to connect us, that's all." Just because it includes two former members of the Torchwood Institute doesn't mean it's a formal continuation of it, just like Ianto having survived the destruction of Torchwood One didn't mean that he was formally the head of T1 now. You mention the Torchwood Charter, but the fact it that the new Torchwood team is no longer financed by the Crown nor "accountable to the Government". It's just a group of individuals that keep using the name, that's all.
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 :::I take your points, Ausir, but "Torchwood team" isn't a clear term.  There are plenty of "Torchwood team"s out there.  Just to pick entirely random bits of ''Torchwood'' prose, I've got various compositions of the nominal "Torchwood three" described as the "Torchwood team".  From the first three and totally random selections on my shelf, there's:
-::::The three other remaining members of the Torchwood team gathered round ... ([[TWN]]: ''[[Kaleidoscope]]'')
+::::The three other remaining members of the Torchwood team gathered round ... ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Kaleidoscope (short story)|Kaleidoscope]]'')
-::::Just because she had the most obvious 'real' life out of the Torchwood team . . .  ([[TWN]]: ''[[Into the Silence]]'')
+::::Just because she had the most obvious 'real' life out of the Torchwood team . . .  ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Into the Silence]]'')
-::::There was no way past those big red-headed guys.  The conference phone was within reach now — was there anyway of dialing the Torchwood team fast enough before he was stopped? ([[TWN]]: ''[[Pack Animals]]'')
+::::There was no way past those big red-headed guys.  The conference phone was within reach now — was there anyway of dialing the Torchwood team fast enough before he was stopped? ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Pack Animals]]'')
-:::Another point is that there is no definition of the team in Miracle Day ''without'' reference to the preceding organisations.  It is an ''organic'' part of Torchwood 3.  The two aren't really divisible from a narrative sense, especially because, as far as we know, the [[Torchwood Charter]] is still in effect.  This information should just be on a single page called "Torchwood", because it's a single organisation.  ''Miracle Day'' just describes the nadir of that organisation.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}&nbsp;<span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''19:55:44 Sun&nbsp;'''11 Sep 2011&nbsp;</span>
+:::Another point is that there is no definition of the team in Miracle Day ''without'' reference to the preceding organisations.  It is an ''organic'' part of Torchwood 3.  The two aren't really divisible from a narrative sense, especially because, as far as we know, the [[Torchwood Charter]] is still in effect.  This information should just be on a single page called "Torchwood", because it's a single organisation.  ''Miracle Day'' just describes the nadir of that organisation.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''19:55:44 Sun&nbsp;'''11 Sep 2011&nbsp;</span>
 ::::Well, even if the Torchwood Charter is formally still in effect, the current "Torchwood" team clearly is not operating under the Charter in any way. I do agree that it might be best to move "Torchwood Institute" to just "Torchwood", although I also think that the current team deserves a new page. And we still need a name for it, separate from "Torchwood Three", to be used in navboxes etc. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 20:19, September 11, 2011 (UTC)
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 Also, Ausir is correct, Miracle Day Torchwood it is no longer a part of the Torchwood Institute, which was destroyed by the British Government during ''Children of Earth''. It is even stated by Rex in "[[Rendition (TV story)|Rendition]]" that Torchwood is no longer affiliated with the Torchwood Institute; "... someone's made a link between '''that old institute''' of yours and the Miracle, and now they want to kill you for it." The Miracle Day Torchwood should be titled either Torchwood or Torchwood Team. It is not a matter of whether you like the name or not, that is its name, and that is what the article will be called.
-I agree with the renaming of [[Torchwood]] to [[Torchwood (TV Series)]], but that [[Torchwood Institute]] remain as it is named, and [[Torchwood (team)]] be renamed [[Torchwood]] or alternatively [[Torchwood Team]] or [[Team Torchwood]]. {{User:Rassilon of Old/Sig}} 06:36, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
+I agree with the renaming of [[Torchwood]] to [[Torchwood (TV series)]], but that [[Torchwood Institute]] remain as it is named, and [[Torchwood (team)]] be renamed [[Torchwood]] or alternatively [[Torchwood Team]] or [[Team Torchwood]]. {{User:Rassilon of Old/Sig}} 06:36, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
 :I don't see how you get around the fact that — within all ''Torchwood'' narratives, other configurations of Torchwood are ''also'' called "the Torchwood team".  The phrase simply is neither unique nor formal in any sense.  And, anyway, you can't describe what the ''Miracle Day'' Torchwood is without explaining its connection to Torchwood Three, which you can't explain without underlining its relationship to Torchwood One, which you can't explain without emphasising its connection to the Torchhwood Institute.  In my view, it's all one thing.   Now having said that, I do see the point of having an aricle at [[Torchwood Three]], just to define the term. But the average non-fan user of the site will be far less confused by having the bulk of the material in one article, named [[Torchwood]].
 :I'd also strongly disagree that the "new" Torchwood isn't the Torchwood Institute. Again, there's nothing whatsoever to indicate that the charter has been revoked.  The clear implication of ''Children of Earth'' is that the British government fell to politicians friendly to Torchwood.  And the money used by Jack to set up Torchwood in the US is still coming from funds derived from the Crown ("in a bank account accruing interest from the 19th century" or so the line sorta went in ep 3 of MD)  Jack can say all he wants to in this series that Torchwood's dead and whatnot, but he doesn't have the power to kill it.  Torchwood is '''not''' indivisible from Jack.  As he is not Queen Elizabeth II, he doesn't have the power to declare Torchwood dead.  It may be ''de facto'' dead, but it's not legally dead.  And since COE really made clear the legal underpinnings of the organisation, we can't just ignore the [[Torchwood Charter]] when writing up our articles.  The Charter is still intact, as far as we know, so the Torchwood Institute is still alive.  ''Miracle Day'' simply depicted the very nadir of that organisation.
-:All that said, if this discussion leads to a consensus for maintaining most of the history of the organisation known as "Torchwood" at [[Torchwood Three]] and a page for the "new" Torchwood, then the only disambiguated term allowable by policy would be [[Torchwood (Miracle Day)]].  Personally, I think that's confusing as hell, given that there's an actively-used redirect to series 4 at  ''[[Torchwood: Miracle Day]]''.  But that's your option.  Put everything on Torchwood in a neat article that travels down through the history of the organisation — or split it up and end up with an article called [[Torchwood (Miracle Day)]] sitting alongside ''[[Torchwood: Miracle Day]]''. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}&nbsp;<span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''15:49:24 Mon&nbsp;'''12 Sep 2011&nbsp;</span>
+:All that said, if this discussion leads to a consensus for maintaining most of the history of the organisation known as "Torchwood" at [[Torchwood Three]] and a page for the "new" Torchwood, then the only disambiguated term allowable by policy would be [[Torchwood (Miracle Day)]].  Personally, I think that's confusing as hell, given that there's an actively-used redirect to series 4 at  ''[[Torchwood: Miracle Day]]''.  But that's your option.  Put everything on Torchwood in a neat article that travels down through the history of the organisation — or split it up and end up with an article called [[Torchwood (Miracle Day)]] sitting alongside ''[[Torchwood: Miracle Day]]''. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''15:49:24 Mon&nbsp;'''12 Sep 2011&nbsp;</span>
 ::I don't think "in a bank account accruing interest from the 19th century" necessarily refers to financing by the Crown. After all, Jack could have had funds of his own being deposited in a bank since the 19th century. And whether the government or Jack has the power to declare Torchwood dead under the Torchwood Charter is not really relevant, because they are not operating as part of the Torchwood Institute under the Charter "accountable to the government" and under orders from the Crown, but are simply using "Torchwood" as a codename. At this point, regardless of whether the Institute still exists or not, Jack and Gwen are its ''former'' members as of 2011. They might officially re-establish the Institute (which is not "alive", it was destroyed, even if never formally closed down) in the future, but during all 10 episodes of Miracle Day, the Institute stayed dead. It being "just a codeword" and the institute being dead has been stated several time on screen and was not contested by any of the other characters, so stating otherwise is just speculation. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 17:45, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
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 ::Announcements about the name switch both at this forum, in community messages, and on some people's individual talk pages very clearly pointed to this discussion and stressed that the discussion about what to do with [[Torchwood (team)]] was very much still ongoing.
-::Now, onto another point about in-universe matters.  The whole point about the ''[[Dead of Night]]'' "money" conversation, to me, is that ties into [[TW]]: ''[[Fragments]]''.  There, it is '''clearly''' established that the '''only''' reason Jack is persuaded to join Torchwood ''at all'' is because he needs money.  We see the cash actually exchange hands between Torchwood and Jack.  So we know that Jack's money does quite literally come from the Crown, and that he has no other known source of income.  Yes, fine, it ''might'' be his own personal money, but it's still from his pay for working for Torchwood.  It ''might'' also be something directly from the 1901 budget of ''Torchwood'' which he had stashed away in a rainy day fund.  Point is, we don't know whether it's personal money or a smart line item in the official ''Torchwood'' budget, "for when the shit hits the fan".  When you're an immortal time traveller, there's not a heck of a lot of material difference between your salary and budgetary allowance, anyway.  All we do know, for certain, is that Torchwood was Jack's sole source of income back at the turn of the last century.
+::Now, onto another point about in-universe matters.  The whole point about the ''[[Dead of Night]]'' "money" conversation, to me, is that ties into [[TV]]: ''[[Fragments (TV story)|Fragments]]''.  There, it is '''clearly''' established that the '''only''' reason Jack is persuaded to join Torchwood ''at all'' is because he needs money.  We see the cash actually exchange hands between Torchwood and Jack.  So we know that Jack's money does quite literally come from the Crown, and that he has no other known source of income.  Yes, fine, it ''might'' be his own personal money, but it's still from his pay for working for Torchwood.  It ''might'' also be something directly from the 1901 budget of ''Torchwood'' which he had stashed away in a rainy day fund.  Point is, we don't know whether it's personal money or a smart line item in the official ''Torchwood'' budget, "for when the shit hits the fan".  When you're an immortal time traveller, there's not a heck of a lot of material difference between your salary and budgetary allowance, anyway.  All we do know, for certain, is that Torchwood was Jack's sole source of income back at the turn of the last century.
-::Also, if the Charter's still there, and the British Government is now in the hands of people friendly to Torchwood — which is clearly the point of the final Whitehall scenes of COE — there is absolutely no reason to assume that he's not ''still'' getting paid.  It's made absolutely clear, in DW and TW, that Torchwood is outside the control of the British government, anyway.  He'd have to piss of QE2 to stop getting paid, and we've got no evidence of that. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}&nbsp;<span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">14:37:32 Fri&nbsp;16 Sep 2011&nbsp;</span>
+::Also, if the Charter's still there, and the British Government is now in the hands of people friendly to Torchwood — which is clearly the point of the final Whitehall scenes of COE — there is absolutely no reason to assume that he's not ''still'' getting paid.  It's made absolutely clear, in DW and TW, that Torchwood is outside the control of the British government, anyway.  He'd have to piss of QE2 to stop getting paid, and we've got no evidence of that. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}14:37:32 Fri&nbsp;16 Sep 2011&nbsp;</span>
 Even if this issue isn't why you moved The Torchwood Institute to Torchwood, moving it still does solve this problem. We can put information on the new Torchwood on that page, wheteher or not it has been officially reformed. Queen Elizabeth would probably start funding Torchwood again if they asked, but they probably stopped getting money after ''Children of Earth'', and they didn't exactly have a chance to ask for funding during ''Miracle Day''. If they make another season I'm sure we'll get a better answer though.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]]`
 In a continuation of the first bit, why are Rex, Vera, Esther, Friedkin, the Families etc. under Torchwood Three-related categories ''at all'', when all there was to Torchwood was more of a legacy and codeword that brought Jack out? Editors on the Torchwood Three page seem insistent that Rex and Esther are Torchwood Three (which I do realise IS almost never used outside of ''[[Everything Changes]]''). -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 15:01, September 21, 2011 (UTC)
+That was basically my original point. For some reason, Rex and Esther can't be considered "Torchwood Three Personnel," but The Three Families and even Oswald Danes are considered "Torchwood Three Enemies." i don't really care what we do about this, but it should be consistent.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 19:05, September 21, 2011 (UTC)