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{{ | {{archive|Panopticon archives}}[[Category:Policy changers]] | ||
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Do you know how many [[T:LOP|prefix]]es we have on our wiki? 90. Nine-zero. And rising. In order to make sense of our article citation system, you have to wade through some seriously thick alphabet soup. | Do you know how many [[T:LOP|prefix]]es we have on our wiki? 90. Nine-zero. And rising. In order to make sense of our article citation system, you have to wade through some seriously thick alphabet soup. | ||
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::So I support this proposal, though I do have a few questions; | ::So I support this proposal, though I do have a few questions; | ||
::With this new system will | ::With this new system will WEB finally be shifted out of use in-universe articles as it's non-narrative (except for when websites are seen onscreen). | ||
::Also what of [[GAME]]? We'll need to make it clear that ones that have a narrative are covered under the PROS prefix. | ::Also what of [[GAME]]? We'll need to make it clear that ones that have a narrative are covered under the PROS prefix. | ||
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::::I think we '''do''' need to go to the other extreme, Shambala108, because if we do something less we'll be compromising so much so we'll get another iteration of what we already have. | ::::I think we '''do''' need to go to the other extreme, Shambala108, because if we do something less we'll be compromising so much so we'll get another iteration of what we already have. | ||
::::I also disagree that many of our new readers and editors have come from TV. ''Doctor Who'' is on TV for 6-12 weeks of the year, it's greatly, hugely outweighed by the other mediums which produce stories for the DWU. It is also just as possible that new readers/editors may not know the full extent of the DWU having come here via ''Torchwood'', ''SJA'' or [[ | ::::I also disagree that many of our new readers and editors have come from TV. ''Doctor Who'' is on TV for 6-12 weeks of the year, it's greatly, hugely outweighed by the other mediums which produce stories for the DWU. It is also just as possible that new readers/editors may not know the full extent of the DWU having come here via ''Torchwood'', ''SJA'' or [[Bernice Summerfield (series)|Bernice Summerfield]]. | ||
::::If for sake of argument we don't merge DW/TW/SJA/KAC/K9TV the next question is '''why''' and why don't we have individual prefixes for the other mediums / series? If we did half-hearted merge along these lines it smacks of us favouriting one line over another. | ::::If for sake of argument we don't merge DW/TW/SJA/KAC/K9TV the next question is '''why''' and why don't we have individual prefixes for the other mediums / series? If we did half-hearted merge along these lines it smacks of us favouriting one line over another. | ||
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::::: I'll concede to simplifying it down to [[PROS]], [[COM]] (or [[COMIC]] to avoid conflicts with the commentary prefixes), [[AUD]] and [[TV]]. I won't ''completely'' like it, but I can't think of any proper alternatives. | ::::: I'll concede to simplifying it down to [[PROS]], [[COM]] (or [[COMIC]] to avoid conflicts with the commentary prefixes), [[AUD]] and [[TV]]. I won't ''completely'' like it, but I can't think of any proper alternatives. | ||
::::: I'm gathering that special cases of [[TV]] (''[[Meanwhile in the TARDIS]]'', [[the Prequels]], ''[[Night and the Doctor]]'') would be [[TV]], Are we expanding [[TV]] to "anything moving picture" such as webcasts and the semi-licensed videos? | ::::: I'm gathering that special cases of [[TV]] (''[[Meanwhile in the TARDIS (TV story)|Meanwhile in the TARDIS]]'', [[the Prequels]], ''[[Night and the Doctor]]'') would be [[TV]], Are we expanding [[TV]] to "anything moving picture" such as webcasts and the semi-licensed videos? | ||
::::: Unless there's a discussion I missed with video games as sources, I assume we can keep [[GAME]] as well? -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 16:43, August 22, 2012 (UTC) | ::::: Unless there's a discussion I missed with video games as sources, I assume we can keep [[GAME]] as well? -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 16:43, August 22, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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:::In any event, this change will eventually come with a new template that not only incorporated [[user:Eladkse|Eladkse]]'s idea, but auto-italicisation and proper dab truncation ([[Castrovalva (TV story)]] --> ''[[Castrovalva (TV story)|Castrovalva]]'') at the same time, thereby improving overall compliance with the manual of style. | :::In any event, this change will eventually come with a new template that not only incorporated [[user:Eladkse|Eladkse]]'s idea, but auto-italicisation and proper dab truncation ([[Castrovalva (TV story)]] --> ''[[Castrovalva (TV story)|Castrovalva]]'') at the same time, thereby improving overall compliance with the manual of style. | ||
:::Also, I think people are wrongly thinking it's "bad" that newbies might have to click on a story name to see where, specifically, the story came from. '''That's good'''. That means we're keeping people here a little bit longer. We want that. The greater our pageviews, the more we improve a number of popularity metrics. And, yanno, we're not forcing people to go on some kinda treasure hunt here. We're just adding one click to look at an infobox. I'd argue that on many of these prefixes, they were having to click '''anyway''' in order to decode the prefix. So really, we're just swapping the click target, not actually adding a click. We may even be decreasing click throughs in some instances, since people might be curious what | :::Also, I think people are wrongly thinking it's "bad" that newbies might have to click on a story name to see where, specifically, the story came from. '''That's good'''. That means we're keeping people here a little bit longer. We want that. The greater our pageviews, the more we improve a number of popularity metrics. And, yanno, we're not forcing people to go on some kinda treasure hunt here. We're just adding one click to look at an infobox. I'd argue that on many of these prefixes, they were having to click '''anyway''' in order to decode the prefix. So really, we're just swapping the click target, not actually adding a click. We may even be decreasing click throughs in some instances, since people might be curious what PHS means, but will probably not think twice about clicking on [[COM]] (or [[COMIC]]). | ||
:::To answer Tybort above, [[GAME]] will probably be supplanted by [[GAME]], and we'll probably need to invent something like [[HOMEVID]] for the stuff now prefixed with | :::To answer Tybort above, [[GAME]] will probably be supplanted by [[GAME]], and we'll probably need to invent something like [[HOMEVID]] for the stuff now prefixed with RP and [[BBV Productions|BBV]], as well as the ''Meanwhile in the TARDIS'' and ''Night and the Doctor'' stuff. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}16:18: Thu 23 Aug 2012 </span> | ||
::::Okay, I've kicked the tires on [[User:Eladkse|Eladkse]]'s template-with-semantics notion and I think it needs to be made clear that such a notion depends on a ''lot'' of work on my part. I'd have to tag every single story page with a little bit of code. And just adding it with a bot isn't going to be enough. I'd have to integrate it in such a way that it was likely that people would remember to add it to new pages. Maybe, for instance, I'd co-opt the {{{series}}} variable that exists in all infoboxes. | ::::Okay, I've kicked the tires on [[User:Eladkse|Eladkse]]'s template-with-semantics notion and I think it needs to be made clear that such a notion depends on a ''lot'' of work on my part. I'd have to tag every single story page with a little bit of code. And just adding it with a bot isn't going to be enough. I'd have to integrate it in such a way that it was likely that people would remember to add it to new pages. Maybe, for instance, I'd co-opt the {{{series}}} variable that exists in all infoboxes. | ||
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::::: Okay, I take back what I said on the prequels. It seems to have nothing to do with the home video "special cases". It turns out the only uses of [[TV]] for them were on images that I added and [[Forum:Timeline - Eleventh Doctor]], which I started off. Everywhere else it's [[WC]]. They're web broadcasts, though they're clearly produced by the same BBC Wales production team as the television series, which I'm sure CzechOut brought up elsewhere. That must have been what confused me. | ::::: Okay, I take back what I said on the prequels. It seems to have nothing to do with the home video "special cases". It turns out the only uses of [[TV]] for them were on images that I added and [[Forum:Timeline - Eleventh Doctor]], which I started off. Everywhere else it's [[WC]]. They're web broadcasts, though they're clearly produced by the same BBC Wales production team as the television series, which I'm sure CzechOut brought up elsewhere. That must have been what confused me. | ||
::::: I'm abstaining on whether to do this for now, but if we do go through with it, if we are continuing the use of [[WC]] and | ::::: I'm abstaining on whether to do this for now, but if we do go through with it, if we are continuing the use of [[WC]] and WEB, maybe we should turn them into [[WEBCAST]] (plus a few online [[PROS]]-es) and [[WEBSITE]]. That's not too long for a prefix, is it? -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 17:40, August 23, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:For the record, I really don't like "PROS". I think 3 letters work best, so I'd go for either a 3 letter abbreviations - "PRS", "PSE", or the first 3 letters - "PRO". I like "PRS", "CMC" and "AUD" the best for prose, comics and audio stories. '''[[User:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">talk</span>]]''' 07:34, August 25, 2012 (UTC) | :For the record, I really don't like "PROS". I think 3 letters work best, so I'd go for either a 3 letter abbreviations - "PRS", "PSE", or the first 3 letters - "PRO". I like "PRS", "CMC" and "AUD" the best for prose, comics and audio stories. '''[[User:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">talk</span>]]''' 07:34, August 25, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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::::By my count there are 4 in favor of and 5 against (or 3 in favor of, 5 against, and 1 abstaining from) the proposal. Once again, and for the last time, I will state that I don't think reacting to one extreme by going to the other extreme is helpful. Some simplification is necessary, to be sure, but too much simplification is just as confusing as too much complexity. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:22, August 28, 2012 (UTC) | ::::By my count there are 4 in favor of and 5 against (or 3 in favor of, 5 against, and 1 abstaining from) the proposal. Once again, and for the last time, I will state that I don't think reacting to one extreme by going to the other extreme is helpful. Some simplification is necessary, to be sure, but too much simplification is just as confusing as too much complexity. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:22, August 28, 2012 (UTC) | ||
::::: Yeah, I'm abstaining the "six or so in-universe prefixes" decisions. I support the concept "having much less than 90 prefixes", but I'm not 100% behind that specific proposal, but at the same time, I don't know what alternatives ther are. What I'd be happy with is prefixes for ''Doctor Who'' and each spinoff in each medium (i.e. consolidate ''Doctor Who'' prose with the prefix [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[ | ::::: Yeah, I'm abstaining the "six or so in-universe prefixes" decisions. I support the concept "having much less than 90 prefixes", but I'm not 100% behind that specific proposal, but at the same time, I don't know what alternatives ther are. What I'd be happy with is prefixes for ''Doctor Who'' and each spinoff in each medium (i.e. consolidate ''Doctor Who'' prose with the prefix [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]], [[DWM]], [[DWAN]], [[PROSE]], [[DWY]], [[PROSE]], [[PROSE]] and [[PROSE]] into one prefix, but not all prose ever), but as pointed out above, [[COMIC]], [[COMIC]] and so forth are pre-existing acronyms. If the ''Doctor Who'' universe had a massive "Doctor Who" on the various covers of every story, we wouldn't have this problem. But we don't. There's tons of spinoff series that barely or infrequently feature the Doctor. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 18:20, August 28, 2012 (UTC) | ||
ok, i think we should cut down on the amount of prefixes used, but to six (in universe) i agree might be too few. but i would preferably have too few than too many! the average user wouldn't care if the format of one novel series is slightly different from the format of another novel series if they both contain the same main character set (ie both based on the doctor, or both following torchwood etc) and are published by the same people (eg the BBC). so, i think we should definitely narrow it down. here's my suggestion. we should categorise the works based on medium (tv, prose, comic, audio...), main character set (eg. doctor who, torchwood, sarah jane and co. etc) and publishing (eg not mixing BBC with BBV works). also, does it really matter if an acronym is pre-existing if we are going to change them all anyway? [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] [[User talk:Imamadmad|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:18, August 29, 2012 (UTC) | ok, i think we should cut down on the amount of prefixes used, but to six (in universe) i agree might be too few. but i would preferably have too few than too many! the average user wouldn't care if the format of one novel series is slightly different from the format of another novel series if they both contain the same main character set (ie both based on the doctor, or both following torchwood etc) and are published by the same people (eg the BBC). so, i think we should definitely narrow it down. here's my suggestion. we should categorise the works based on medium (tv, prose, comic, audio...), main character set (eg. doctor who, torchwood, sarah jane and co. etc) and publishing (eg not mixing BBC with BBV works). also, does it really matter if an acronym is pre-existing if we are going to change them all anyway? [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] [[User talk:Imamadmad|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:18, August 29, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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== The prefixes == | == The prefixes == | ||
In the rather arbitrary debate which is now left to us, there are two basic philosophies: | In the rather arbitrary debate which is now left to us, there are two basic philosophies: | ||
*[[User:Tardis1963|Tardis1963]] has argued for three-letter prefixes: [[PRS]], [[CMC]], [[AUD]]. I assume this would mean he'd argue for [[TEL]] for TV and | *[[User:Tardis1963|Tardis1963]] has argued for three-letter prefixes: [[PRS]], [[CMC]], [[AUD]]. I assume this would mean he'd argue for [[TEL]] for TV and WEB for web and [[VID]] for home video. I don't think there ''is'' a logical three-letter thing for games — [[GME]], [[GAM]]? I dunno, but it can't be [[VGM]] because of the need to allow for non-video games. | ||
*I would argue for a system less beholden to number of letters, and one which makes more immediate sense while reading: [[PROSE]] [[COMIC]], [[AUD]], [[TV]], | *I would argue for a system less beholden to number of letters, and one which makes more immediate sense while reading: [[PROSE]] [[COMIC]], [[AUD]], [[TV]], WEB, [[HOME]], [[GAME]]. ([[User:Digifiend|Digifiend]] has pointed out that [[TV]] would need to become a disambiguation page if we used TV for a prefix. But the truth is that, in a medium-based prefix system, people will assume that TV is the right prefix. The prefix page [[TV]] will naturally have a link to the word [[television]], so it naturally will act as a disambiguation page. Even if we choose the 3-digit approach, realistically, we'll still use TV, not TEL.) | ||
The system will be changed over this coming weekend. You have until roughly the BBC One broadcast of ''Doctor Who'' this Saturday to offer up any concerns about the actual prefixes to be used. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 01:30: Wed 05 Sep 2012</span> | The system will be changed over this coming weekend. You have until roughly the BBC One broadcast of ''Doctor Who'' this Saturday to offer up any concerns about the actual prefixes to be used. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 01:30: Wed 05 Sep 2012</span> | ||
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*Audio - [[AUD]] | *Audio - [[AUD]] | ||
*TV story - [[TVS]] (either for '''T'''ele'''v'''ision '''s'''tory or '''T'''ele'''v'''i'''s'''ion) | *TV story - [[TVS]] (either for '''T'''ele'''v'''ision '''s'''tory or '''T'''ele'''v'''i'''s'''ion) | ||
*Web (like Shalka, Pond Life, Prequels) - | *Web (like Shalka, Pond Life, Prequels) - WEB | ||
*Home video (Meanwhile, Night and the Doctor) - [[HVD]] (possibly "HMV", but thought that might get confusing with the retailer) | *Home video (Meanwhile, Night and the Doctor) - [[HVD]] (possibly "HMV", but thought that might get confusing with the retailer) | ||
*Games (I'm assuming this included video games as well as online games and board games) - either "GME" or "GAM" will do - they're both as incorrect as each other | *Games (I'm assuming this included video games as well as online games and board games) - either "GME" or "GAM" will do - they're both as incorrect as each other | ||
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:* Theatrical film - FILM? | :* Theatrical film - FILM? | ||
:And keep [[CON]], [[TWD]], [[BFX]], [[INFO]], [[PCOM]], [[DCOM]], [[REF]], [[DOC]] and ''maybe'' | :And keep [[CON]], [[TWD]], [[BFX]], [[INFO]], [[PCOM]], [[DCOM]], [[REF]], [[DOC]] and ''maybe'' CP for the time being. | ||
:Should Tardisodes be consolidated into one of the above, or is "mobile phone" really none of the above? | :Should Tardisodes be consolidated into one of the above, or is "mobile phone" really none of the above? | ||
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::Tardis1963's point though is somewhat valid, there should be a limit on how long a prefix is, just from a typing stand point, as holding shift and typing more than 5 or so letters does become tiresome. | ::Tardis1963's point though is somewhat valid, there should be a limit on how long a prefix is, just from a typing stand point, as holding shift and typing more than 5 or so letters does become tiresome. | ||
::One group of stories that hasn't been mentioned too much is [[BBV]] and [[Reeltime Pictures]]' straight-to-video contributions. I initially thought that [[VHS]] would be a fitting prefix for them, if it weren't for ''[[Dæmos Rising]]'' which went straight to DVD. Though [[HOMEVID]] (put forward by CzechOut up-thread) could work, even if it is 7 letters. Tybort's and Tardis1963's suggestion of [[VID]] might be a good alternative. | ::One group of stories that hasn't been mentioned too much is [[BBV Productions|BBV]] and [[Reeltime Pictures]]' straight-to-video contributions. I initially thought that [[VHS]] would be a fitting prefix for them, if it weren't for ''[[Dæmos Rising]]'' which went straight to DVD. Though [[HOMEVID]] (put forward by CzechOut up-thread) could work, even if it is 7 letters. Tybort's and Tardis1963's suggestion of [[VID]] might be a good alternative. | ||
::Would [[VID]] or whatever be used for ''[[Meanwhile in the TARDIS]]'' and ''[[Night and the Doctor]]''? | ::Would [[VID]] or whatever be used for ''[[Meanwhile in the TARDIS (TV story)|Meanwhile in the TARDIS]]'' and ''[[Night and the Doctor]]''? | ||
::As for Tybort's question of DAB terms I think we can draw up a table based on series article names so many would remain the same. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 06:20, September 5, 2012 (UTC) | ::As for Tybort's question of DAB terms I think we can draw up a table based on series article names so many would remain the same. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 06:20, September 5, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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::: If we're open to 6-letter prefixes, and I'm just throwing it out there, how about PODCOM and DVDCOM? If not, then forget I said anything. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 19:37, September 5, 2012 (UTC) | ::: If we're open to 6-letter prefixes, and I'm just throwing it out there, how about PODCOM and DVDCOM? If not, then forget I said anything. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 19:37, September 5, 2012 (UTC) | ||
Given the way navigation templates are organised, especially under [[:Category:Villains navigation templates]], I'd assume it'd make sense to remove the prefixes altogether on those (with the exception of non-DWU stories listed that don't specify the medium), given that on, say, [[Template:Cyberman stories]], the section that already says television stories would go TV: ''The Tenth Planet'', TV: ''The Moonbase'', TV: ''The Tomb of the Cybermen'' and so forth. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 19:34, September 5, 2012 (UTC) | Given the way navigation templates are organised, especially under <nowiki>[[:Category:Villains navigation templates]]</nowiki>, I'd assume it'd make sense to remove the prefixes altogether on those (with the exception of non-DWU stories listed that don't specify the medium), given that on, say, [[Template:Cyberman stories]], the section that already says television stories would go TV: ''The Tenth Planet'', TV: ''The Moonbase'', TV: ''The Tomb of the Cybermen'' and so forth. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 19:34, September 5, 2012 (UTC) | ||
i'm just wondering, since we have the dab terms for all the stories, could we just not cut them out when referencing a story in articles? seems to me it would be easier than changing all the prefixes as they are already sorted by medium. or, if nothing else, we can use slightly more in depth prefixes as it would also say (TV story) or whatever after the name. is this possible? would this work? [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] [[User talk:Imamadmad|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:07, September 6, 2012 (UTC) | i'm just wondering, since we have the dab terms for all the stories, could we just not cut them out when referencing a story in articles? seems to me it would be easier than changing all the prefixes as they are already sorted by medium. or, if nothing else, we can use slightly more in depth prefixes as it would also say (TV story) or whatever after the name. is this possible? would this work? [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] [[User talk:Imamadmad|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:07, September 6, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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:#'''Prefixes which make more literal word that would be easier for newbies to read and make sense of? | :#'''Prefixes which make more literal word that would be easier for newbies to read and make sense of? | ||
Going back up in the previous section, it seems like we have a fairly firm split between the two ideas. If I told you that I definitely would make a template that required only the shorter forms '''to be typed''' but allowed the longer forms '''to display''', would you see this as an acceptable compromise? That is, you'd type {{tlx|HMV|Meanwhile in the Tardis}} but get [[HOMEVID]]: ''[[Meanwhile in the TARDIS]]''. My point is that we could have ''both'' with only a tiny bit of work. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 21:03: Fri 07 Sep 2012</span> | Going back up in the previous section, it seems like we have a fairly firm split between the two ideas. If I told you that I definitely would make a template that required only the shorter forms '''to be typed''' but allowed the longer forms '''to display''', would you see this as an acceptable compromise? That is, you'd type {{tlx|HMV|Meanwhile in the Tardis}} but get [[HOMEVID]]: ''[[Meanwhile in the TARDIS (TV story)|Meanwhile in the TARDIS]]''. My point is that we could have ''both'' with only a tiny bit of work. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 21:03: Fri 07 Sep 2012</span> | ||
: I'm probably reiterating what I've already said, but I'm going for somewhere in between. TV and AUD are self-evident, and neither of those are full words. That said, a short initialism for home video is nigh-impossible, so I'm okay with the seven-letter HOMEVID. I'm also uncertain about the legibility of [[WC]] and | : I'm probably reiterating what I've already said, but I'm going for somewhere in between. TV and AUD are self-evident, and neither of those are full words. That said, a short initialism for home video is nigh-impossible, so I'm okay with the seven-letter HOMEVID. I'm also uncertain about the legibility of [[WC]] and WEB, though naturally, the BBC website short stories would be the prose prefix. | ||
:How about: | :How about: | ||
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:* DVD commentary - DVDCOM | :* DVD commentary - DVDCOM | ||
:* Podcast commentary - PODCOM | :* Podcast commentary - PODCOM | ||
:And keep [[CON]], [[TWD]], [[BFX]], [[INFO]], [[REF]], [[DOC]] and ''maybe'' | :And keep [[CON]], [[TWD]], [[BFX]], [[INFO]], [[REF]], [[DOC]] and ''maybe'' CP for the time being. There's probably a good alternative for ''Torchwood Declassified'' and some of the others, but I'm focusing on the new in-universe prefix suggestions for the time being. | ||
:Interesting idea though about creating a little less effort with typing ''and'' making the prefix readable. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 21:25, September 7, 2012 (UTC) | :Interesting idea though about creating a little less effort with typing ''and'' making the prefix readable. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 21:25, September 7, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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::*I agree with [[TV]], [[PROSE]], [[COMIC]] [[GAME]] and [[AUDIO]]. | ::*I agree with [[TV]], [[PROSE]], [[COMIC]] [[GAME]] and [[AUDIO]]. | ||
::*I'm not sure whether to go for [[HOME]] or [[HOMEVID]], but am leaning towards [[HOME]]. | ::*I'm not sure whether to go for [[HOME]] or [[HOMEVID]], but am leaning towards [[HOME]]. | ||
::*I don't think I believe webcasts are significantly different enough to TV to warrant a different prefix. But we're talking about less than 10 actual titles here, so if other people really want | ::*I don't think I believe webcasts are significantly different enough to TV to warrant a different prefix. But we're talking about less than 10 actual titles here, so if other people really want WEB, I guess they can have it. I suppose I think that if we have it, we'll need a separate discussion to determine why ''Pond Life'' is a webcast, but ''Dreamland'' isn't. Of all the prefixes, this is the one with the most ambiguous meaning to me. | ||
::*I disagree with the rest of Tybort's suggestions. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 17:43: Sat 08 Sep 2012</span> | ::*I disagree with the rest of Tybort's suggestions. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 17:43: Sat 08 Sep 2012</span> | ||
[/edit conflict] | [/edit conflict] | ||
Ok, I'm ok with [[TV]], [[PROSE]], [[COMIC]], [[GAME]] and [[AUDIO]]. For Internet stuff like ''Pond Life'', I'd just go with | Ok, I'm ok with [[TV]], [[PROSE]], [[COMIC]], [[GAME]] and [[AUDIO]]. For Internet stuff like ''Pond Life'', I'd just go with WEB (with [[WWW]] for the couple of old/defunct in-universe sites). For stuff exclusive to home video like ''Night and the Doctor'', neither HOME nor HOMEVID work for me; I'd prefer HVD or HMV. But seeing as everything else is going to be the full length, it might better to go with something like HOMEV. That way we know that it's not talking about a house of something (HOME: ''Ponds house'' or something), and it's not as prominent for people to automatically assume video tape. '''[[User:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">talk</span>]]''' 22:42, September 8, 2012 (UTC) | ||
: The UNIT and Defending the Earth pages are still online, though I have a feeling that Martha's blog isn't. Considering that there's over a hundred citations, the website prefix still seems useful for those old sites. Maybe a separate discussion is in order to decide if they're ''really'' in-universe. | : The UNIT and Defending the Earth pages are still online, though I have a feeling that Martha's blog isn't. Considering that there's over a hundred citations, the website prefix still seems useful for those old sites. Maybe a separate discussion is in order to decide if they're ''really'' in-universe. | ||
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*[[TV]], [[AUDIO]], [[COMIC]], [[PROSE]] and [[GAME]] are locked, save for the exception which follows. | *[[TV]], [[AUDIO]], [[COMIC]], [[PROSE]] and [[GAME]] are locked, save for the exception which follows. | ||
*[[HOMEVID]] seems a lock to me too. This is BBV + any special features on home video releases. | *[[HOMEVID]] seems a lock to me too. This is BBV + any special features on home video releases. | ||
* | *WEB is for motion picture webcasts '''only'''. Short stories on the web are [[PROSE]]. | ||
*[[INFO]] and [[REF]] are non-controversial and will be retained. | *[[INFO]] and [[REF]] are non-controversial and will be retained. | ||
*[[DOC]] isn't going anywhere, but see below. Other things might get merged into [[DOC]]. | *[[DOC]] isn't going anywhere, but see below. Other things might get merged into [[DOC]]. | ||
::'''This portion of the discussion is now closed, and I will begin the changeover soon enough.''' {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 04:42: Sun 16 Sep 2012</span> | ::'''This portion of the discussion is now closed, and I will begin the changeover soon enough.''' {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 04:42: Sun 16 Sep 2012</span> | ||
===Things where a bit more discussion is needed=== | ===Things where a bit more discussion is needed=== | ||
*The meaning of [[TV]] when it comes to minor videos not delivered by terrestrial broadcast is still in dispute. Is Dreamland [[TV]] or | *The meaning of [[TV]] when it comes to minor videos not delivered by terrestrial broadcast is still in dispute. Is Dreamland [[TV]] or WEB? Is Pond Life [[TV]] or WEB? I still don't think we know just yet, but the discussion can continue on with that one. | ||
*It's unclear to me that we need to preserve a prefix at all for URLs. We could just put them in parentheses and be done with it. Even if we keep, though, I think we probably need another round of discussion. Should it be [[WWW]] or [[URL]]? | *It's unclear to me that we need to preserve a prefix at all for URLs. We could just put them in parentheses and be done with it. Even if we keep, though, I think we probably need another round of discussion. Should it be [[WWW]] or [[URL]]? | ||
*I personally think we can merge [[CON]] and [[BFX]] with [[DOC]]. I don't see any strong rationale to separate by medium on the non-fiction side of things. I'm not sure there's a rationale for allowing ''Confidential'' to be the only show to retain its separate prefix. It's a documentary show, so why not simplify down to [[DOC]] for everything that's factual and features people who speak aloud? | *I personally think we can merge [[CON]] and [[BFX]] with [[DOC]]. I don't see any strong rationale to separate by medium on the non-fiction side of things. I'm not sure there's a rationale for allowing ''Confidential'' to be the only show to retain its separate prefix. It's a documentary show, so why not simplify down to [[DOC]] for everything that's factual and features people who speak aloud? | ||
*I really don't like [[DVDCOM]] and [[PODCOM]]. My thought is this. Let's just make [[COM]] the standard. Because podcast commentaries are long gone, now, let's just say that they get [[PCOM]]. I'm not really sure that people won't have to click [[PODCOM]], because it's been almost three years since one was made. People who started with Matt Smith DW simply won't know a PCOM from a PODCOM, so the "OD" is more letters for no reason. The default condition of a commentary is that it exists on DVD, so let's just call it [[COM]]. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 04:42: Sun 16 Sep 2012</span> | *I really don't like [[DVDCOM]] and [[PODCOM]]. My thought is this. Let's just make [[COM]] the standard. Because podcast commentaries are long gone, now, let's just say that they get [[PCOM]]. I'm not really sure that people won't have to click [[PODCOM]], because it's been almost three years since one was made. People who started with Matt Smith DW simply won't know a PCOM from a PODCOM, so the "OD" is more letters for no reason. The default condition of a commentary is that it exists on DVD, so let's just call it [[COM]]. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 04:42: Sun 16 Sep 2012</span> | ||
:*Not sure about ''Dreamland'', but I'd put ''Pond Life'' as | :*Not sure about ''Dreamland'', but I'd put ''Pond Life'' as WEB. | ||
:*I'm starting to think maybe just go without a prefix for these websites. | :*I'm starting to think maybe just go without a prefix for these websites. | ||
:*So [[DOC]] will cover all documentaries? Both on DVD and Confidential? Sounds good to me. | :*So [[DOC]] will cover all documentaries? Both on DVD and Confidential? Sounds good to me. | ||
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:::I think our whole language for web-released stories needs to be looked at, they're not "broadcast", ''Pond Life'' was released for streaming and then later broadcast as a whole. This was how ''Real Time'', ''Shada'' and ''Scream of the Shalka'' were debuted as well – like a broadcast they were released each week, but unlike a broadcast you could "tune in" whenever you wanted. The term broadcast suggests it's a one time opportunity. | :::I think our whole language for web-released stories needs to be looked at, they're not "broadcast", ''Pond Life'' was released for streaming and then later broadcast as a whole. This was how ''Real Time'', ''Shada'' and ''Scream of the Shalka'' were debuted as well – like a broadcast they were released each week, but unlike a broadcast you could "tune in" whenever you wanted. The term broadcast suggests it's a one time opportunity. | ||
:::I don't think we can classify stories like Pond Life as TV (nor the Asylum Prequel) as there are too many variables involved in their debut. The BBC released ''Pond Life'' for streaming on their YouTube channel and on BBC iPlayer (of note neither their YouTube channel or iPlayer is not geolocked for ''Pond Life''). The Asylum Prequel came with the US iTunes Season Pass and the US Amazon Store Season purchase. With all these the common element is the internet. So I propose they be included as | :::I don't think we can classify stories like Pond Life as TV (nor the Asylum Prequel) as there are too many variables involved in their debut. The BBC released ''Pond Life'' for streaming on their YouTube channel and on BBC iPlayer (of note neither their YouTube channel or iPlayer is not geolocked for ''Pond Life''). The Asylum Prequel came with the US iTunes Season Pass and the US Amazon Store Season purchase. With all these the common element is the internet. So I propose they be included as WEB. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 14:14, September 16, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:::: I suppose by that definition [[TS]] could become | :::: I suppose by that definition [[TS]] could become WEB | ||
:::: Also, [[T:DAB TERM]] says this: | :::: Also, [[T:DAB TERM]] says this: | ||
:::: {{Quote|If two different television series have stories of the same name, then disambiguate by using the prefix from [[Tardis:List of prefixes]]. For instance, if there were an SJA story named ''Inferno'', then it would be | :::: {{Quote|If two different television series have stories of the same name, then disambiguate by using the prefix from [[Tardis:List of prefixes]]. For instance, if there were an SJA story named ''Inferno'', then it would be Inferno (SJA TV story) and the DW story would have to move to Inferno (DW TV story). If two episodes of the ''same'' television series have the same noiame, [sic] then disambiguate by the year of initial broadcast.|[[Help:Disambiguation terms]]}} | ||
:::: We really need to amend both this rule and various pages following this rule, in particular [[Wish You Were Here (WEB short story)|''Wish You Were Here'' (WEB short story)]] due to the current change of the prefix list. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 15:06, September 16, 2012 (UTC) | :::: We really need to amend both this rule and various pages following this rule, in particular [[Wish You Were Here (WEB short story)|''Wish You Were Here'' (WEB short story)]] due to the current change of the prefix list. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 15:06, September 16, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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:I don't get the distinction you're making when you call the DVD commentaries "audio". The podcast commentaries are audio, too. They're not using sign language, after all. :) Thus the term "audio commentary" isn't much of a disambiguator. | :I don't get the distinction you're making when you call the DVD commentaries "audio". The podcast commentaries are audio, too. They're not using sign language, after all. :) Thus the term "audio commentary" isn't much of a disambiguator. | ||
:As for the in-vision, well, I'd forgotten about them slightly. I suppose there are a few cases where there's an in-vision that doesn't appear on the DVD, so there's an in-vision, a DVD and a podcast commentary on a few eps. These "triple commentary" eps are ''[[New Earth (TV story)|New Earth]]'', ''[[Tooth and Claw (TV story)|Tooth and Claw]]'', ''[[Doomsday]]'' (which oddly has two in-vision comms and a podcast comm), ''[[Gridlock]]'', and ''[[The Sound of Drums]]''. So I guess we will need [[IN-VIS]] or something. | :As for the in-vision, well, I'd forgotten about them slightly. I suppose there are a few cases where there's an in-vision that doesn't appear on the DVD, so there's an in-vision, a DVD and a podcast commentary on a few eps. These "triple commentary" eps are ''[[New Earth (TV story)|New Earth]]'', ''[[Tooth and Claw (TV story)|Tooth and Claw]]'', ''[[Doomsday (TV story)|Doomsday]]'' (which oddly has two in-vision comms and a podcast comm), ''[[Gridlock (TV story)|Gridlock]]'', and ''[[The Sound of Drums]]''. So I guess we will need [[IN-VIS]] or something. | ||
:As for Tardis1963's point about [[COMMENT]], I don't see it. How could anyone mistake what that means if it's next to the title of a story? Why would COMM necessarily be more inteligible than COMMENT. One's a word; the other isn't. And haven't we switched to prefixes that are words? FEATCOM is a nonstarter for me, because it's the same number of letters as COMMENT, and it doesn't parse as a word. Maybe we should just keep [[PCOM]] and [[DCOM]], while adding [[ICOM]]. Less work for me, and they're as intelligible as anything else. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 07:45: Mon 17 Sep 2012</span> | :As for Tardis1963's point about [[COMMENT]], I don't see it. How could anyone mistake what that means if it's next to the title of a story? Why would COMM necessarily be more inteligible than COMMENT. One's a word; the other isn't. And haven't we switched to prefixes that are words? FEATCOM is a nonstarter for me, because it's the same number of letters as COMMENT, and it doesn't parse as a word. Maybe we should just keep [[PCOM]] and [[DCOM]], while adding [[ICOM]]. Less work for me, and they're as intelligible as anything else. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 07:45: Mon 17 Sep 2012</span> | ||
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:''Gridlock'' and ''The Sound of Drums'' have a PCOM, DCOM ''and'' an IVCOM. IVCOMs which appeared on the [[Adventure Calendar]] did not appear on the DVD, even if the DVD ''had'' an IVCOM already. Obviously, Adventure Calendar IVCOMs come out ''after'' the relevant DVD release. | :''Gridlock'' and ''The Sound of Drums'' have a PCOM, DCOM ''and'' an IVCOM. IVCOMs which appeared on the [[Adventure Calendar]] did not appear on the DVD, even if the DVD ''had'' an IVCOM already. Obviously, Adventure Calendar IVCOMs come out ''after'' the relevant DVD release. | ||
:By far, the most confusing episode for commentaries is ''Doomsday''. It is a bitch when it comes to figuring out which commentary you're talking about. There's the DVD audio commentary, but it's really the PCOM, because all the audio commentaries on season 2 came from the podcasts. Then there's the Piper/Tennant in-vision commentary on the DVD and the "producer's" IVCOM on the Adventure Calendar. I think for that one, we're just gonna have to invent something crazy like [[IVCOM]] (Producers): ''[[Doomsday]]'' or something. | :By far, the most confusing episode for commentaries is ''Doomsday''. It is a bitch when it comes to figuring out which commentary you're talking about. There's the DVD audio commentary, but it's really the PCOM, because all the audio commentaries on season 2 came from the podcasts. Then there's the Piper/Tennant in-vision commentary on the DVD and the "producer's" IVCOM on the Adventure Calendar. I think for that one, we're just gonna have to invent something crazy like [[IVCOM]] (Producers): ''[[Doomsday (TV story)|Doomsday]]'' or something. | ||
:Anyway, to answer your question TD, no, we can't just use DCOM to mean IVCOM. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 03:26: Wed 19 Sep 2012</span> | :Anyway, to answer your question TD, no, we can't just use DCOM to mean IVCOM. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 03:26: Wed 19 Sep 2012</span> | ||
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:::It might seem no less obscure, but at least [[PODCOM]] and [[DVDCOM]] have somewhat more understandable words in them and brings them a little more in line with our other new prefixes. [[PCOM] and [[DCOM]] I still need to stop and think what they are. [[INVISCOM]] is better than [[IVCOM]] even if it is 8 letters. | :::It might seem no less obscure, but at least [[PODCOM]] and [[DVDCOM]] have somewhat more understandable words in them and brings them a little more in line with our other new prefixes. [[PCOM] and [[DCOM]] I still need to stop and think what they are. [[INVISCOM]] is better than [[IVCOM]] even if it is 8 letters. | ||
:::Though I do acknowledge people are going to need to click through to get some sort of explanation about what these all mean. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 07:46, September 19, 2012 (UTC) | :::Though I do acknowledge people are going to need to click through to get some sort of explanation about what these all mean. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 07:46, September 19, 2012 (UTC) | ||
==Problem with Downtime?== | |||
:::The direct-to-video production ''[[Downtime (home video)|Downtime]]'' has the prefix [[PROSE]] in [[Lethbridge-Stewart family#Kate Lethbridge-Stewart and her descendants]]. It isn't a prose story. The current list of prefixes doesn't have anything appropriate to direct-to-video or direct-to-DVD productions. Since there are several of these, a prefix is needed for them. Using [[PROSE]] isn't simplifying, it's misleading. If you want to restrict [[TV]] to broadcast television only, why not use [[VIDEO]] for direct-to-video & direct-to-DVD productions? --[[Special:Contributions/2.99.196.103|2.99.196.103]]<sup>[[User talk:2.99.196.103#top|talk to me]]</sup> 17:04, October 27, 2012 (UTC) | |||
:You've already reported this on my talk page. Sorry I didn't respond to you directly, but I've had minimal success responding on IP talk pages like yours. | |||
:You're taking a single case and incorrectly extrapolating a ''general'' condition. ''Downtime'' is ''generally'' prefixed [[HOMEVID]], which is the prefix for direct-to-video productions. What happened on the page you've discovered is that the original editor ''incorrectly'' marked the citation as DWN: ''[[Downtime (home video)|Downtime]]'' when they should have done DWN: ''[[Downtime (novelisation)]]''. Thus, the bot appropriately changed DWN (or possibly MA, since it's nominally a Virgin Missing Adventure) to PROSE. It's not reasonable to program the bot to expect unlikely ''human'' errors such as the one you've discovered. The prefix change has been accomplished in a careful way, involving in some cases relatively specific and sophisticated programming — but if an editor chose to blatantly mis-cite a point, the programming wouldn't have been able to detect it. | |||
:In other words, there is no problem here. Both the novelisation and the video make the point on display at [[Lethbridge-Stewart family]]. All that's required is to manually change the prefix to [[HOMEVID]] or the title to [[Downtime (novelisation)]], which I've now done. No biggie. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 01:56: Sun 28 Oct 2012</span> | |||
:Initially, as you say, I just reported the one instance to you. I reported it because it was a bot edit & (for all I knew) it '''might''' have been a more general problem. It was only when you didn't respond that I tried to find out what the prefix ought to have been & found there was nothing appropriate listed. That was when I posted the message above on this page. | |||
:Note that I know (& said) there would be no point putting a message on my IP talk page. There was, however, nothing to prevent you responding immediately below my message on your talk page, which is what you did the last time I reported a mistaken bot edit ("enroled" for "enrolled"). I was watching for such a response. | |||
:By the way, the same applies to my message about 'Bad English: "one of the only"'. That's not a bot problem but it's something that could perhaps be corrected by bot. | |||
:Responding below the message has the additional virtue of making it easier to follow the discussion of a problem, since it's all in one place. (My IP address has changed again.) --[[Special:Contributions/92.23.89.185|92.23.89.185]]<sup>[[User talk:92.23.89.185#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:02, October 28, 2012 (UTC) | |||
::It's a bit of "MediaWiki etiquette" that the standard method of communication is for you to leave a message on my talk page and me to respond on yours. That's why the system naturally alerts you to new messages on your own talk page. I appreciate the argument that the conversation is kept all in one place, but this virtue is trumped by getting a message alert. The conversation may be all in one place according to your method, but it proceeds ''more quickly'' if you conform to the standard method. You've made a conscious and deliberate choice not to register an account. Communicating with you is made doubly difficult by the fact that you (by design?) have a massively floating IP address. So how do I, or anyone, know that ''you'' — whoever ''you'' are — has left a message on my talk page, and that I'm therefore supposed to answer you on my talk page? Nope, I'm not having it. I respond like the software means for me to respond, and I'm not changing that method just because some IP number appears on my page. I'm not entirely sure what the upside of that decision is for you, but the downside is that you may not get a response — or at least that you won't get a ''timely'' response. However, this thread isn't about your choices, but the prefix simplification project. | |||
::If you want to talk about your grammar puzzler, please [[Forum:one of the only|go here]]. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 14:56: Sun 28 Oct 2012</span> | |||
==Commentaries== | |||
Returning to this issue of commentary prefixes, we seem to have left off at something of an impasse. Some preferred the longer names PODCOM, DVDCOM and INVISCOM, while I argued for the shorter (and largely already extant) [[PCOM]], [[DCOM]] and [[ICOM]]. | |||
Since it was admitted that people would probably have to click through in the longer names anyway, I'm going to say that the impetus to change the names is not actually great. This is really a case of "ease" deciding a close call. If both are probably gonna confuse newbies, then I say we should go with the thing that's ''easiest'' to accomplish. to that end I've added the page [[ICOM]], and say that all current uses can stay where they are. | |||
I should point out, too, that the information at [[ICOM]] is actually useful. With [[TV]] or [[COMIC]] there's not a whole lot of need for people to actually read the page. But with the commentaries, I think it's important, since not everyone will know that there was a podcast series, or that ''Doomsday'' has ''two'' ICOMs. It's useful to have these commentary prefixes be a ''little'' more obscure just so we have a higher chance of exposing our readers to useful information about the nature of commentaries in the [[Tenth Doctor]]'s era. | |||
Accordingly, [[Tardis:Prefixes]] has been overhauled as this project winds its way toward a conclusion. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 03:16: Thu 01 Nov 2012</span> |