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{{ | {{archive}}[[Category:Policy changers]] | ||
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== Opening Post == | == Opening Post == | ||
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::::: In my opinion, our policy should be that a character's name on the wiki should be written as it appears in the most sources. For instance, [[Mr. Bean]] should be at that page because that is his name, period included. It would be bonkers to list the character at [[Mr Bean]] or, worse, [[Bean (Dennis the Menace in Balloonatics)]]. So why is Mr. Benn at [[Benn]]? I think we need a more consistent policy in these cases. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 19:34, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | ::::: In my opinion, our policy should be that a character's name on the wiki should be written as it appears in the most sources. For instance, [[Mr. Bean]] should be at that page because that is his name, period included. It would be bonkers to list the character at [[Mr Bean]] or, worse, [[Bean (Dennis the Menace in Balloonatics)]]. So why is Mr. Benn at [[Benn]]? I think we need a more consistent policy in these cases. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 19:34, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | ||
:: I suspect in both the [[Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks)]] and [[Mr. Bean]] cases, what we're doing is applying the [[Doc Holliday]] precedent: Cushing's character is not — at any rate not primarily, not explicitly — a man called Who who has a doctorate, any more than Hartnell was, but rather a man going by the indivisible ''moniker'' of “''Dr. Who''”. See also [[Mr Tickle]] or [[Captain Britain]]. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 11:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | :: I suspect in both the [[Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks)]] and [[Mr. Bean]] cases, what we're doing is applying the [[Doc Holliday]] precedent: Cushing's character is not — at any rate not primarily, not explicitly — a man called Who who has a doctorate, any more than Hartnell was, but rather a man going by the indivisible ''moniker'' of “''Dr. Who''”. See also [[Mr Tickle]] or [[Captain Britain]]. | ||
:: (This is not to say I oppose the reform, but I do think those highlighted exceptions have a rationale under the current policy, and don't just stick out without reason.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 11:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
[[User:NateBumber|@n8]] I apologize for the OP for this thread being, well, poorly written and articulated. My aim is not just to allow for more disambiguation, but also to rename character pages where the character is almost always known as including their honourific or epithet, for example [[Miss Young]] and [[Brian the Ood]]. I think the main reason for the unclearness of this is that I changed my mind without noticing whilst writing the OP, and then got excited when the forums opened and so posted it without properly editing. Let this be a lesson to me to do it better next time. [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrahc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:38, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Just to note that I asked [[User:Spongebob456]] about the SEO issue, see their talk page. They said they'll get back to me. Seems from their comments that they ''think'' it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but that we should use pipeswitches over redirects internally for webcrawlers, as that does effect SEO slightly. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:24, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
I'm unsure how much this overlaps with the exact proposal laid out in the OP but one relaxation to [[T:HONOUR]] I'd especially like to see is to do with the [[Spectrum (organisation)|Spectrum]] gang from ''[[Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons]]''. Our articles for the four main characters (Captain Scarlet, Captain Blue, Colonel White and Captain Black) used to have dabbed colours as page names ([[Scarlet (Captain Scarlet in Death Crash!)]], [[Blue (SPECTRUM is Green)]], [[White (SPECTRUM)]] and [[Black (Capt. Black Mars Expedition Lost!)]]) and other more minor yet recurring characters still face this same fate as can be seen in [[Green (SPECTRUM)]], [[Fawn (We Will Destroy Unity City)]] and [[Magenta (We Will Destroy Unity City)]]. Now, thanks to the story ''[[Traitor Black Gives In! (comic story)|Traitor Black Gives In!]]'' our main four currently have their pages under their real names ([[Paul Metcalf]], [[Adam Svenson]], [[Charles Grey]] and [[Conrad Turner]]) but I believe this situation to be far from ideal. | |||
The pages for these characters should be at their rank + colour combo in my opinion. They are the most recognisable names by far and the ones which will be pipeswitched 99% of the time. I'll also note that ''[[Marineville Ablaze (short story)|Marineville Ablaze]]'' gives Scarlet's surname as ''Metcalfe'' (which is actually the accepted spelling in proper ''Captain Scarlet'' circles) meaning a rename back to the dabbed colour might be on the cards. [[Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons (short story)|A story]] discovered since the original rename would result in the rather fortuitous [[Scarlet (Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons)]] as the article name but why can't we cut out the middle man and leave him at [[Captain Scarlet]]? [[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
: Well I will say that a basic reading of ''Star Trek'' precedent says that we can just use the official franchise names regardless, but I would agree that in those instances "Captain X" is the proper way to address them, never "X (story title)". [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 02:48, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::See my previous example of Sabbath, I think the "X (story title)" page name is actually ''better'' for wikification. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 09:13, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Najawin, thanks for re-highlighting your earlier reply. I'd be curious to hear how you address my counter-argument regarding the relative uselessness of "Sabbath (Movers)" as a page title. I'm not actually sure that <nowiki>[[Godparent (rank)|Godfather]] [[Sabbath (Movers)|]]</nowiki> is actually better than <nowiki>[[Godfather Sabbath]]</nowiki>, but even if one were to have that preference, as you pointed out there's nothing wrong with most links going to a redirect – in this case, [[Sabbath (Movers)]] being a redirect to [[Godfather Sabbath]]! (While not disputing the argument you were using it to illustrate, I'll also point out that [[First Great Time War]] isn't the best example: its [[Special:WhatLinksHere/First Great Time War|WhatLinksHere]] only looks the way it did because the page was moved by a non-admin who didn't change the existing links. When [[Talk:First Great Time War|the talk page rename discussion]] settles on a permanent name in one direction or the other, those links should be moved.) | |||
:::Boris, I agree that [[Captain Scarlet]] is a clear case for this thread. Nothing is gained by <nowiki>[[Captain (rank)|Captain]] [[Paul Metcalf|Scarlet]]</nowiki>. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 15:11, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::I don't think "it's counterintuitive and weird" is a compelling argument when it comes to our dab policies, personally. They've ''always'' been counterintuitive and weird. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::... I agree! That's not the argument I was asking you to respond to, nor is it one that I've made. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 18:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
Forgive me, but I think it is? | |||
:I do prefer Godfather Sabbath to [[Sabbath (Movers)]], just because ''Movers'' is such an unhelpful dab term: he was mentioned so many times beforehand, and his appearance in ''Movers'' is so minor, that identifying him as "Sabbath from ''Movers''" is something only the wikibrained would ever do. | |||
Surely this is just insistence that our dabing practices are counterintuitive and weird, and that as a result of their running contrary to intuition (only making sense to those with wikibrain) we should change them. This has always been the case. It will always be the case with some of our dab practices and rules. I don't think this is compelling. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Ahh! I misunderstood, since I did not and would not use the words "counterintuitive" or "weird", and I'll note that you've neatly elided my analysis of the informational content in the title options. But fine. If that's the extent of your response – "it does clearly suck, but our wiki has always clearly sucked, so there's no reason for us to make it suck less" – well, I'll trust other participants to decide which is more convincing. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 21:39, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Well I think that approach is backwards. You're basically never going to see the raw text "Sabbath (Movers)" divorced from any context except when searching for Sabbath and at said page, so the actual issue is whether or not you find Sabbath at any one particular location. (I can't imagine how it would be an issue on the page itself, you have all of the information there on the page - clearly this has all of the information that could be conveyed.) | |||
:::So I just don't think the issue of informational content is distinct from that of it being intuitive from a search perspective. As for the idea that my response is "our dabbing practices have always sucked", I mean, it's more that there's always some degree of arbitrariness to them. I don't think we have compelling reason to move away from a more consistent system to a less consistent system when I think it hurts wikification slightly and gives credence to the same reasons that Czech used to deny the page names of [[Odessa Smith]] and [[Nova Osgood]]. I think we should be ''very'' skeptical of any reasoning that comes close to suggesting that page names should be what they're most linked at or most likely to be looked for. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:01, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Character's pages should be at what their name is. He's called [[Godfather Sabbath]], never "Sabbath", so if someone sees the article, they will end up, incorrectly, believing he is addressed primarily, or even really ''at all'' as "Sabbath". [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrahc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:07, 9 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Those are two distinct and contradictory positions. Should their pages be located where their names are at, or where they're most often called? If it's the former, the page is already located there, modulo a dab term. (Sabbath ''is his name'', he's just always addressed with his title as well.) If it's the latter, this has radically counterintuitive implications like the ones I've alluded to. (And if you're getting hung up on Sabbath in particular - since his name is as much adopted is his title is, consider the same argument wrt Vastra or anyone else with a prominent title.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:16, 9 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Okay, I'll rephrase. The page should be at what they are most often called in-universe.(also, Unless he was ever actually addressed as "Sabbath" in the sources he appears in, I'd argue that's not his name in any respect, especially as before joining the Faction he likely had another name. But that's besides, as "most often called in-universe" is enough imo). This also applies to other characters, like [[Ms. Young]], although the situation is slightly different with [[Brian the Ood]], as I'll bet, although I haven't done TLV, that he's most often called Brian. But out-of-universe, his character is known as "Brian the Ood", which I think should supplement the fact he's also sometimes called that in-universe. [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrahc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::But this is just the same problem! First of all, you're just admitting that the principle you've suggested is fundamentally inconsistent in how you want to apply it, and that's just obviously an issue. But think about how often people refer to Mickey's mother. As of [[Odessa Smith]]'s first ''named'' reference in Rose, under what you're suggesting we should still refer to her as "Mickey Smith's mother" because she's been more commonly referred to as something else. Or what if Obverse decided to publish, idk, 7,000,000 AI generated short stories that all talked about Gallifrey as The Homeworld. Would we change the page name because now it's been referred to as something else more times in-universe? | |||
::::I cannot ''imagine'' consistently applying this rule, and I don't think you want us to. But if there's no fundamental principle motivating these changes, no underlying reason behind this, it's just doing it based on vibes. Surely you can see that "it's just vibes man" isn't a sound conclusion for a thread to reach. (Also, you know, you can have honorifics in specific page titles if forum threads make exceptions for them, see [[Dr. Who]] and [[Talk:Marticide (short story)|Marticide]]. I see no need to change the policy generally. I could imagine "Brian the Ood" given how he's represented on merch, but Vastra and Sabbath are really not good arguments imo. Vastra ''is'' actually referred to as Vastra from time to time, and Sabbath is part of a larger organization that uses titles, so changing his dabbing would suggest you do that for all of them, which is a really weird position.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:05, 10 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
Najawin, saying "You're basically never going to see the raw text 'Sabbath (Movers)' divorced from any context except when searching for Sabbath" strikes me as kind of like saying "You're never going to use your eyes except when seeing." Well, yeah! That's the whole unique purpose of a page title! Redirects can do linking, and {{tlx|retitle}} can do the main page display, but search is the domain of the page title alone, and since it's the main way that our users find our pages, I think it's very important on its own. | |||
Regarding concerns of consistency and precedent, the {{w|Wikipedia:Ignore all rules|classical wiki position}} is that these exist to serve the readers and editors, not the other way around. So "we can't do the sensible thing in situation X because it will be inconsistent with situation Y" isn't especially persuasive to me. All that said, I'm sympathetic to the concern of [[Mickey Smith's mother]], and if this is to be a new rule rather than a set of ratified exceptions, I agree that we would do well to carefully mark out the scope of this rule change to avoid unintended consequences elsewhere. | |||
What I like to do when a suggestion worries me is to try to find a mutually aggreeable middle ground. For instance, in this case, maybe the rule should be that (a) we always prioritize proper names over descriptive ones, and (b) we only add descriptions to proper names when those are universally used and/or especially helpful for disambiguation or clarity. This would indicate that [[Odessa Smith]] is better than [[Mickey Smith's mother]] and that [[Alistair Lethbridge-Stewart]] is better than [[the Brigadier]], while also allowing us to use [[Queen Victoria]] and [[Brian the Ood]] etc. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 18:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Well, no, Nate, it's not like that. You were bringing up the idea that the page title with this dab term lacked ''informational content'', and my response is that you would never see it in a context in which this issue mattered, you'd only ever see it while searching for the page. See, specifically: | |||
::So I just don't think the issue of informational content is distinct from that of it being intuitive from a search perspective. | |||
:I agree that it's not 100% ideal for search. But my response to it is the same as it ever was. This has always been the case. It ''will'' always be the case to some extent. And redirects help with the issue and are allowed already. | |||
:(On the side note of ignore all rules, I have absolutely no issue with a handful of cases that are discussed individually that break rules. Where the problem emerges is when there are two rules that are contradictory ''in their motivating principles'', or that a rule is clearly only being applied when users feel like it - the rule is "opt in" rather than "opt out". Moreover, of course, [[T:EVIL TWIN]], and just a note that wikipedia has some really weird philosophical governance ideas.) | |||
:This rule you're proposing is much too vague. What does "especially helpful" mean here? Is the issue with Sabbath ''just'' that people don't think of him as "the Sabbath from Movers"? Or would this apply to ''every'' character over a story based dab term, if they also have a descriptive title/epithet/etc? Either position seems unpalatable, as the latter is a massive change that makes the ranks of Faction Paradox deeply split on whether they have their title or not, and the former seems, well, arbitrary. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::As others have pointed out, page titles are primarily a matter of discoverability and so pages should be titled in a way that maximises that both internally and externally. I'm not sure if most-called in-universe name fits this, because page titles are an out-of-universe thing, and that would seemingly kill conjectural titles in their tracks (although maybe that's a good thing - [[Talk:Christopher Eccleston (in-universe)]]). Descriptive titles are helpful but in a well structured wiki these sort of queries should be easily answered by other means. Internally, if I wanted to know who Mickey's mother is I visit his page and look in the infobox, and putting "Mickey Smith's mother" into Google returns the Odessa Smith page here in a featured snippet, no less (because Google has very good relational content understanding). So renaming that page is not actually helping discoverability because the page is not hard to find. Search is not the only tool a wiki has for finding pages! "Sabbath (Movers)" fails external discoverability because the page doesn't show up on Google when searching for "Godfather Sabbath", and so is a prime candidate for renaming. | |||
::And on that relational content understanding (and moving the page name aside), I wonder if linking to that page more often as <nowiki>[[Sabbath (Movers)|Godfather Sabbath]]</nowiki> rather than <nowiki>[[Godparent (rank)|Godfather]] [[Sabbath (Movers)|]]</nowiki> would help. From a UX point of view I could find myself, as a reader, being annoyed by the latter version: clicking on the Godfather part of the name does not actually get me to the character's page despite it seemingly being part of it, and Google would not as strongly be associating the Godfather bit of the name with the page itself. Would need a bit of an experiment but I imagine the results would be quite helpful here. | |||
::Making redirects just for the purposes of linking is generally frowned upon, especially just for editors to save a few keystrokes - and so if pages are linked to most through a redirect that should be some sort of indication that maybe that page is misnamed (although I am not familiar enough with the "First Great Time War" example above to really comment further) - but I know this wiki and redirects has a very odd relationship. And again, I can imagine a bit of experimentation with linking to redirects directly, and seeing if that changes Google's understanding in any way, would be a good idea. | |||
::So to sum up an actual position, I think moving away from dabs and towards honorifics is a good thing, but probably only on a case-by-case basis to start with, where such a discoverability problem actually exists. For Vastra, that means the page is probably fine where it is because there's no problem finding it on here or on Google. Google doesn't actually understand page moves very well, so moving a page actually kills its SEO history and starts it over again, and therefore mass moving pages might actually have unintended negative effects. [[user:guyus24|guyus24]] ([[user talk:guyus24|talk]]) 01:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Just to note, the issue of external discoverability is something I've asked our FANDOM/wiki rep about, and they're gonna get back to me on whether creating redirects will be enough to improve google search results. But "Godfather Sabbath" as a search, in quotes, in private tabs, already returns the FP and Tardis wikis as the top two results. So I don't think this example is definitive, though the overall point ''may'' be correct - we need to hear from Spongebob. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Huh, ok, that's a recent thing. It was not doing that an hour ago when I was checking (it was returning Sabbath Dei instead, but did have the FP wiki's version). Google, huh <shrug/> [[user:guyus24|guyus24]] ([[user talk:guyus24|talk]]) 01:22, 11 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::: Same here, I get [[Sabbath Dei]] and FPWiki's <nowiki>[[Sabbath (Movers)]]</nowiki>; although from the snippet of the farmer's article that is previewed on Google, the {{tlx|you may}} which includes the text "Godfather Sabbath" is visible... {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 02:02, 11 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
I get [https://imgur.com/a/T6zmJ39 precisely this] for incognito mode on both Firefox and Safari. And have done so ever since the issue of SEO was first discussed. Google, idk. But again, I agree that SEO might be a concern, and there's some discussion taking place on whether we can fix that. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:29, 11 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: I do not follow how "most called in-universe" would harm conjectural titles of the [[Jenny Everywhere]] or [[Christopher Eccleston (in-universe)]] form. ''In-universe'' these people are presumably called by those names, not "eccentric-looking woman" and "Salford lad who looked like the Ninth Doctor"! You seem to be mixing up what they're most often called ''in-story'' and what stories in gestalt tell us or imply they are most often called ''in-universe''. (If a character spends a story under an alias, but that alias was only used for the span of the story's events, then they're most called by their real name ''in-universe'' but most called by their alias ''in-story''. Neither question especially matches what they're most called in real-world ''discussion'' of the story; that could really go either way depending on the case.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 08:44, 11 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Najawin, why are you enclosing the query in quotes? That's not how people usually Google things in the real world, nor is it how SEO is measured. When you search it without quotes, Sabbath Dei is indeed the top Tardis Wiki result, as I've replicated on both mobile and desktop in different browsers. Unless Google indexes Fandom differently than every other website including Wikipedia, as I already said upthread, there's no need to wait for a Fandom rep to weigh in: our internal redirects to a page have no impact on Google search results. Where redirects do have impact is when someone types in the search bar on the Tardis Wiki itself. My concern remains that, upon typing in simply the word "Sabbath", there is no indication to the searcher whether [[Sabbath Dei]] or [[Sabbath (Movers)]] is the character most commonly known as "Godfather Sabbath". | |||
:But Najawin, I do appreciate you summarizing the core of your objection: "I agree that it's not 100% ideal for search. But my response to it is the same as it ever was. This has always been the case. It ''will'' always be the case to some extent." Or as I put it more succinctly earlier, "It does clearly suck, but our wiki has always clearly sucked" – and/or, I might add, "and it will never be literally perfect anyway" – "so there's no reason for us to make it suck less." ;) | |||
:As it is, I don't find your suggestion of vagueness remotely convincing, since from the start the idea has been that this new guideline will be interpreted and implemented via talk page discussions. No rule exists in a vacuum; it only has power to the extent that it is interpreted by our editors and implemented by our admins. And when it comes to deciding whether or not a suggestion is "especially helpful", I trust our editors and admins to – as Justice Potter Stewart once said – "know it when [they] see it." If the result is inconsistent, honestly, I can't bring myself to care: better to be sometimes right than consistently wrong! – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 20:47, 11 June 2023 (UTC) [edited 16:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC)] | |||
::If I want to search for an exact phrase I always enclose it in quotes; I'm not sure why that's controversial. But, again, it's possible that even without quotes this issue could be ameliorated. | |||
::As for the interpretation that my position is that our wiki's dabbing policies have always sucked, let me frame this another way. "There have always been edge cases, there will always be edge cases, you cannot possibly please everyone attempting to search for things, and attempting to do so with a vague and arbitrary standard that you ''admit'' is vague and arbitrary is a cure worse than the disease." Perhaps your experience has been different, but I consistently hear the Potter quote in a derogatory context. People make fun of it. Why are we trying to make our wiki's rules ''less'' consistent, when we've been trying to make them ''more'' consistent as of late? | |||
::We already are sometimes right. Which of course you know. You want to increase our percentage by, I dunno, .00001% or something at the cost of introducing a wildly inconsistent and arbitrary rule '''''that's not even needed.''''' We can already discuss individual cases as exceptions, there's precedent, and the SEO concerns might easily be resolved. It's a solution to an imagined problem - everything discussed has (or may have) an easy fix that doesn't require the rule being suggested. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Firstly, it's definitely good Google-fu that you use quotation marks – I do the same! – but it's not how most people usually search, and it's not how SEO is measured in the industry. Despite my overall reservations about this back-and-forth (articulated below), I'd still be curious for you to elaborate on ways through which "it's possible that even without quotes this issue could be ameliorated", since so far the only mentioned alternative to simply moving the page seems ''prima facie'' infeasible. | |||
:::Is Stewart's quote widely derogated? Not in the legal community; Wikipedia cites textbooks calling it "realistic and gallant" and "candid". Stewart only regretted it because of how it overshadowed the rest of his legacy. Given the tendency of discussions like these to devolve into hyper-systemizing, I think it tidily injects a healthy dose of common sense into a Gordian knot of "featherless biped" style quibbles. | |||
:::Finally, for the record's sake, nowhere did I or would I "''admit''" that anything I have suggested is arbitrary. My proposals in this thread are the result of careful consideration of the existing exceptions to [[T:HONOUR]] and the further pain points which have been identified here and elsewhere. In fact, I'm actually arguing for the ''less'' "wildly inconsistent and arbitrary" approach here! You say there's no reason for a change because "we can already discuss individual cases as exceptions" to [[T:HONOUR]]. Would you really rather that we continue to declare exceptions case-by-case without any codified guiding principles, or could we instead formulate some criteria and add them to [[T:HONOUR]] to explain when exceptions to the general rule are possible and limit their scope? | |||
:::I've had fun with this back-and-forth, but despite my attempts to redirect the relentless criticism in a constructive direction and reach a mutually agreeable compromise, when I'm being misquoted to this extent (in italics no less) I don't see much practical purpose in continuing to engage with a single contrary voice. I'll trust the other readers and the closing admin(s) on this one. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 16:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::As for how to fix the issue aside from moving pages, this was touched on many times. Redirects might plausibly still work for SEO and we're looking into that option. It's certainly fine for internal discoverability and solves all of the problems ''on wiki''. | |||
:::::from the start the idea has been that this new guideline will be interpreted and implemented via talk page discussions. No rule exists in a vacuum; it only has power to the extent that it is interpreted by our editors and implemented by our admins. And when it comes to deciding whether or not a suggestion is "especially helpful", I trust our editors and admins to – as Justice Potter Stewart once said – "know it when [they] see it." | |||
::::I cannot begin to understand how this isn't an admission of arbitrariness. "Why do it on X but not Y, can you give me a fully fleshed out standard?" "No, it will be interpreted by our editors on a case by case basis." - This is so obviously arbitrary ''in its application'' that it's bizarre. (Perhaps the confusion is that you think I meant arbitrariness ''of the standard itself''? If this is the case, I apologize, that was not my intent.) | |||
::::I would have absolutely no objection to adding such principles to [[T:HONOUR]] if people can make them clear, consistent, and without wildly bizarre implications when applied consistently. I once again cite [[User:CzechOut]], who makes an excellent point, even if I disagree on the specifics of how they used it: | |||
:::::'''All rules of the wiki have to be clear and easy to administer.''' | |||
::::Why are we enshrining vagaries in our rules when we've tried so hard to eliminate them elsewhere? Surely this is reason in itself to be skeptical of this idea and to try all other options first. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::Even setting aside the external discoverability back-and-forth, I spelled out exactly how redirects will not solve the problem for internal discoverability, which you have not addressed. I would have been happy to elaborate on my suggestion, but you did not ask for elaboration; instead, you preemptively said that any feasible interpretation would "seem unpalatable". Not to repeat myself yet again, but I would love to hear a proposal from you that would meet the criteria you have set out. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 02:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
I apologize, you're correct, I didn't address | |||
:search is the domain of the page title alone | |||
But the reason I didn't address this is because it's just not true. Try it yourself. Search for "Black Sun War", type it out in the search bar. As soon as I get to "Black su" "First Great Time War" appears as a suggestion. Redirects handle search internally as well. Is it 100% optimal? Probably not. I get other things suggested to me as well, and I know that wiki search can be frustrating for people. But this isn't an impossibility, and it's something we should at least ''attempt'' before throwing up our arms in frustration and adopting a new policy that adds more ambiguity and contradiction to our rules. | |||
Quite frankly, I don't think such a proposal is possible ''given the examples people have chosen as representative''. I think Vastra, for instance, is a horrible case study for this policy, and Sabbath is relatively poor. Potentially possible, but not helpful as a case study. If we're going to do something like this, I think the only approach that's viable is something along the Fugitive/War Doctor precedent, where ''official marketing'' consistently and repeatedly refers to them through use of their epithet / honorific. It cuts off many of the examples people seem to want at the knees though, so I don't think it's a relatively popular option. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:47, 13 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I agree with everything [[User:NateBumber|n8]], [[User:guyus24|guyus24]], and [[User:Scrooge MacDuck]] have said so far. (And for the record, I agree Vastra shouldn't be changed, but, for example, [[Mr Salamander]] should). I understand your qualms, Najawin, with people just saying "I agree with PERSON", but I honestly can't be bothered to re-type arguments when it would just be a less articulated version of those user's points above. [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrahc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:26, 15 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Hmm. Let's try this approach. What would convince you that this change isn't needed? I've expressed what would convince me that this change is viable, and in prior threads I've gone over what would convince me to other positions in those threads. What would convince ''you'', [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc]], as well as anyone else who wants to answer, that this change isn't needed? | |||
::Writing out honorifics and epithets in the body of the text is actually preferred for wikification, so I don't find this compelling, but maybe you still do. Regardless, you can link to them using redirects if you want to do this sub optimally, and this wouldn't require changing current policy. Searching for these pages by honorific by name or epithet through a redirect also wouldn't require changing current policy. ''Technically speaking'' if the objection is that the page title at the very top looks weird and counterintuitive we can solve that by using retitle. I think that might require a ''slight'' change in current policy, but it's different from this proposal, and I don't find the argument particularly convincing, but you may. So we're left with external SEO, which might be a nonissue, we need to hear back from FANDOM staff. | |||
::What else must be done to convince you that this change is superfluous? [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:30, 15 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Najawin, that's not actually the line I was referring to – Ctrl+F for "Where redirects do have impact". I like your idea of defaulting to names used in marketing, which I've been planning to bring up in a separate thread independently of this discussion. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 12:40, 16 June 2023 (UTC) [edited 13:22, 16 June 2023 (UTC)] | |||
::But there's a simple solution to this, which is that a redirect at "Godfather Sabbath" points to [[Sabbath (Movers)]], so if they search for the actual term they're looking for they'll get the right result. "Sabbath" will obviously have ambiguity, it should be no surprise that they're getting multiple answers, and if they're uncertain as to which, they can either refine their search or take a gamble, and, well, look at that, [[Sabbath Dei]] has a {{tlx|you may}} on it. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Conclusion == | |||
<div class="tech"> | |||
Right! Apologies for the wait, but I was waiting on a final technical verdict from [[User:Spongebob456]], our steadfast Fandom representative, who [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/User_talk:Spongebob456?diff=3576398&oldid=3576316 has now confirmed] that redirects do count for SEO — that is, if people Google “Cousin Justine”, and we have a redirect from [[Cousin Justine]] to [[Justine]], then Google will still rank our “Justine” page as highly in the search results as it would “Cousin Justine”, ''even if'' the phrase ‘Cousin Justine’ is not used in the actual text of [[Justine]]. | |||
With this in mind, we can at least discard the worries about SEO, and stick with internal rationales. Discoverability, as [[User:Najawin]] also stated, is not a problem there: our search bar auto-suggests the correct page name when a redirect is suggested. | |||
This importantly reaffirms that '''we should generally have a number of redirects for a given character, even technically ‘incorrect’ ones. And we should retain them even if they’re not linked to from anywhere in a [[Special:WhatLinksHere]] sense. Such ‘orphaned’ redirect are still useful for search functions'''. As such, [[Father Kreiner]] should certainly exist, and likewise [[Cousin Justine]] or even something even less supported by the sources, like [[War Queen Romana]]. | |||
We should also always create such redirects — dabbed if need be — for the way official credits, or the text of prose, refer to a character. [[Young (The Sea Devil)]] will remain at that name — we’ll come to that — but [[Miss Young (The Sea Devil)]] should also exist for searchability. | |||
Still: | |||
{{quote|(…) we should be very skeptical of any reasoning that comes close to suggesting that page names should be what they’re most linked at or most likely to be looked for.|[[User:Najawin]]}} | |||
We strive to use the name that is diegetically the most proper and most commonly-used name. And titles aren’t, normally, part of someone’s name, as such. An important element there is that titles ''change''. Cousin Justine was originally Little Sister Justine. A Ms might once have been a Miss. No one is born a Captain or a Brigadier. [[Vastra]] is hardly likely to have called herself “Madame” before she carved a new life for herself as an enigmatic gentlewoman in Victorian London. Sure, characters’ names change in other ways (e.g. married names), we do have to make judgement calls — but trying to incorporate titles is just creating a whole new swathe of problems for ourselves in that respect in a really needless way. If Justine is just [[Justine]] then we don’t foreground one era of her life over another. | |||
There were repeated complaints that writing <nowiki>[[Sabbath (Movers)|Godfather Sabbath]]</nowiki> is a pain, but that’s a misconception. I don’t think this quite came across in the attempted retorts, but the point is that you’re supposed to write <nowiki>[[Godfather (rank)|Godfather]] [[Sabbath (Movers)|Sabbath]]</nowiki>, instead. Not as sleek as <nowiki>[[Godfather Sabbath]]</nowiki>, sure, but this is still much more intuitive, and unlike the naive pipe-switch, it serves a real purpose compared to the <nowiki>[[Godfather Sabbath]]</nowiki> option. | |||
With all this being said, I think some of the frustrations here demonstrate that the [[Doc Holliday]] precedent has been under-applied. There are many cases where a title becomes part and parcel of a character’s moniker/nom-de-guerre; where it simply isn’t accurate to refer to them without their title. [[Mr. Bean]] and [[Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks)]] were cited as standing examples of this, as were superheroes like [[Captain Britain]]; we should indubitably extend this to the [[SPECTRUM]] crew and similar — let’s face it, they’re essentially superheroes themselves — as suggested by [[User:Borisashton]]. In this category we also find [[Mr Saldaamir]]. As discussed, '''such instances should ignore [[T:BRENG]] if necessary in favour of reflecting the punctuation actually used in the sources''' (though T:BRENG could be used as a tiebreaker if sources differ with no clear-cut numerical advantage). | |||
What about epithets? Well, it looks like it all goes back to Wild West outlaws again: consider [[Billy the Kid]]. It would be supremely unhelpful to refer to him as “[[Billy (The Outlaw)|Billy]] the [[Child|Kid]]”. Unlike instances like “[[Godfather (rank)|Godfather]] [[Sabbath (Movers)|Sabbath]]”, the epithet is not actually primarily a neutral descriptor; it’s part of the moniker itself. And this is true even though Billy really ''was'' a “kid”, much as [[Brian the Ood]] happens to really be an Ood. | |||
By analogy, I think we can allow [[Brian the Ood]]. Credits and merchandise consistently refer to him as such, making it clear it’s the proper full form of his nom-de-guerre, not just a statement that his species is “Ood”. This is obscured because Ood is one of those species name that we always capitalise regardless — but he’s “Brian the Ood” the way Billy is “Billy the Kid” — they're not “Brian, the Ood” or “Billy, the kid”. And to pick another, now perhaps more topical example, [[Beep]] should really be [[Beep the Meep]]. | |||
Of course, we should be careful not to over-extend this: I’m not sure about [[Rusty the Dalek]], though for the aforementioned searchability reasons, we should have the direct anyway. Such questions can be hashed out on the talk pages. But I want to stress that '''this is not a case of there being arbitrary case-by-case exceptions to [[T:HONOUR]]: rather, there are tricky cases which properly speaking ''don’t'' actually fall afoul of the spirit of T:HONOUR, but simply need community discussion to be identified as such'''. It's not even a change to policy — it all goes back to the [[Doc Holliday]] discussion! It's just an official recommendation to be a little broader/consistent about using that precedent than we historicall have been. | |||
As always, thanks to everyone who participated. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 15:27, 6 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
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