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{{Archive|Panopticon archives}} | {{Archive|Panopticon archives}}[[Category:Inclusion debates]] | ||
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I don't think these stories should be classed as non-canon by the wikia as they simply are "what-if?" stories that take place in parallel universes and do not attempt to take place within the main universe as non-canon stories do. Even [[The 100 Days of the Doctor]] depics the Sixth Doctor travelling to another universe to meet one of the unbound Doctors. Therefore I believe that we should class the unbound stories as canon but existing in other universes to the main Whoniverse. | I don't think these stories should be classed as non-canon by the wikia as they simply are "what-if?" stories that take place in parallel universes and do not attempt to take place within the main universe as non-canon stories do. Even [[The 100 Days of the Doctor]] depics the Sixth Doctor travelling to another universe to meet one of the unbound Doctors. Therefore I believe that we should class the unbound stories as canon but existing in other universes to the main Whoniverse. | ||
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:::But is there evidence that the other Unbound universes exist? Are there stories / POVs shown in stories that demonstrate that these Unbound universes exist as alt-universes? Or are you saying just because one story suggests one of the universes exists that they ''all'' exist by association? --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:00, April 12, 2011 (UTC) | :::But is there evidence that the other Unbound universes exist? Are there stories / POVs shown in stories that demonstrate that these Unbound universes exist as alt-universes? Or are you saying just because one story suggests one of the universes exists that they ''all'' exist by association? --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:00, April 12, 2011 (UTC) | ||
::::I'd echo and amplify the things that [[user:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] has said. Our problem is that we were started in 2005, long before Cornell, Davies and Moffat made their public pronouncements about canon. (It's not just Cornell, btw, but also the two modern showrunners. So it ''is'' at least a ''showrunner'' position "there is no canon".) Back before 2007-ish, it was perfectly ordinary and acceptable for fans to speak of what was canonical and what wasn't. In fact, that was the very word used in all those debates about whether the BBC Wales series "counted". Cornell, et al, were fairly specifically offering their opinions on the matter ''as a direct response to'' fan grumblings. In fact, it can certainly be seen that the reason all these authors are speaking in one voice about there being no canon is because it protects their work. (Cornell was particularly, if not explicitly, trying to justify the existence of both the novel and televised versions of ''[[Human Nature]]'', at the time.) If stories get chucked overboard, as Shearman has said ''[[Dalek (TV story)]]'' has been by later Dalek stories like ''[[Doomsday]]'' and ''[[Journey's End]]'', it doesn't affect the "status" of his story, because the constant of the DW universe is that "time can be rewritten". So the event still happened to the Ninth Doctor and Rose, but at least certain aspects of it (the notion that people didn't know what a Dalek was, for instance) didn't happen to much of the rest of the DWU because of subsequent events involving the Tenth Doctor. More egregious is the way that ''[[The Waters of Mars]]'' '''completely''' redefines the latter half of the 21st century in a way that simply can't be reconciled against the way the Troughton era depicted it with ''[[The Moonbase]]'' and ''[[The Seeds of Death]]''. Earth can't have been going through ''both'' a drive for faster-than-light travel ''and'' a ban on spaceflight at the same time. But again, somewhere along the way, in a story we haven't seen, it can be assumed that time was rewritten. | ::::I'd echo and amplify the things that [[user:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] has said. Our problem is that we were started in 2005, long before Cornell, Davies and Moffat made their public pronouncements about canon. (It's not just Cornell, btw, but also the two modern showrunners. So it ''is'' at least a ''showrunner'' position "there is no canon".) Back before 2007-ish, it was perfectly ordinary and acceptable for fans to speak of what was canonical and what wasn't. In fact, that was the very word used in all those debates about whether the BBC Wales series "counted". Cornell, et al, were fairly specifically offering their opinions on the matter ''as a direct response to'' fan grumblings. In fact, it can certainly be seen that the reason all these authors are speaking in one voice about there being no canon is because it protects their work. (Cornell was particularly, if not explicitly, trying to justify the existence of both the novel and televised versions of ''[[Human Nature]]'', at the time.) If stories get chucked overboard, as Shearman has said ''[[Dalek (TV story)]]'' has been by later Dalek stories like ''[[Doomsday (TV story)|Doomsday]]'' and ''[[Journey's End]]'', it doesn't affect the "status" of his story, because the constant of the DW universe is that "time can be rewritten". So the event still happened to the Ninth Doctor and Rose, but at least certain aspects of it (the notion that people didn't know what a Dalek was, for instance) didn't happen to much of the rest of the DWU because of subsequent events involving the Tenth Doctor. More egregious is the way that ''[[The Waters of Mars]]'' '''completely''' redefines the latter half of the 21st century in a way that simply can't be reconciled against the way the Troughton era depicted it with ''[[The Moonbase]]'' and ''[[The Seeds of Death]]''. Earth can't have been going through ''both'' a drive for faster-than-light travel ''and'' a ban on spaceflight at the same time. But again, somewhere along the way, in a story we haven't seen, it can be assumed that time was rewritten. | ||
::::Our problem is that we have never adjusted our use of the word "canon" from those early days in 2005 and 2006 when it ''wasn't'' the dirty word it is today. We've kept chugging along calling this thing canon and that thing non-canon, when such usage is largely frowned upon by "modern" fandom. | ::::Our problem is that we have never adjusted our use of the word "canon" from those early days in 2005 and 2006 when it ''wasn't'' the dirty word it is today. We've kept chugging along calling this thing canon and that thing non-canon, when such usage is largely frowned upon by "modern" fandom. | ||
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::::Stuff that is ''truly'' non-canon — that is, in the dictionary definition of canon, outside the body of works ''legally'' accepted by the BBC or copyright holders — shouldn't even be on the site at all. | ::::Stuff that is ''truly'' non-canon — that is, in the dictionary definition of canon, outside the body of works ''legally'' accepted by the BBC or copyright holders — shouldn't even be on the site at all. | ||
::::Put more simply, our current use of the word, "canon", is actually used in two ways. We need o phase out our use of the word "canon" entirely, in favor of two different expressions. [[user:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] has usefully coined the phrase '''"what this wiki covers"''' as an expression to help draw the line between articles that ''can'' be on the wiki and those that can't. Thus, ''The Stranger'' isn't "non-canon", it's simply something we don't cover. And ''Doctor Who Unbound'' ''is'' something we cover (because it's derived from a full BBC license), but it deserves {{tl|notdwu}} because it's ''clearly'', purposefully outside the ''narrative continuity'' of any other ''Doctor Who'' stories. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::::Put more simply, our current use of the word, "canon", is actually used in two ways. We need o phase out our use of the word "canon" entirely, in favor of two different expressions. [[user:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] has usefully coined the phrase '''"what this wiki covers"''' as an expression to help draw the line between articles that ''can'' be on the wiki and those that can't. Thus, ''The Stranger'' isn't "non-canon", it's simply something we don't cover. And ''Doctor Who Unbound'' ''is'' something we cover (because it's derived from a full BBC license), but it deserves {{tl|notdwu}} because it's ''clearly'', purposefully outside the ''narrative continuity'' of any other ''Doctor Who'' stories. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''13:10:24 Wed '''13 Apr 2011 </span> |