Forum:Loosening T:NO RW: Difference between revisions

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Forum:Loosening T:NO RW (edit)

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Najawin

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 : Just popping in from [[Talk:Isaac Newton]], another case of "we have to pretend that we exist in a void and therefore cannot acknowledge that authors intend for us to use real world context to fill in information that is pretty damn obvious". {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 20:20, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
+:: Yes, that talk page has been very clarifying. I had understood the scope of this thread to be filling in gaps in our sources, helping us improve our coverage by using real-world knowledge sparingly to connect dots in the absence of any information to the contrary. I stand by my above comments in support of [[User:OttselSpy25|OttselSpy25]]'s original proposal. But at [[Talk:Isaac Newton]], proponents of these changes have instead tried to use real world evidence not to connect unspoken dots but to actually ''overwrite'' the pecularities of the DWU so it more closely resembles the real world. I'm still figuring out my admin shoes, but since I've already participated in this forum thread as a user, I'll feel free to be maximally frank: "a source didn't explicitly say [real world fact], but surely the author thought it implicitly, so this should be used to counterbalance another source's divergence from the real world" would be a disastrous standard to set and would make the wiki measurably worse. If our readers wanted to learn about the real world, they would go to Wikipedia. – [[User:NateBumber|NateBumber]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 22:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
+:::See the above comment from [[User:Starkidsoph]]
+::::[...]As an example, let's suppose that one story stated that all Earth mice were actually aliens who have a plot to take over the planet by 2035, and the Doctor ''has always known this''. Obviously, previous stories which mentioned mice weren't written with this in mind, because in actuality the idea didn't exist yet. Later stories might take it up, but they also might not – it could just fade into the infinite ranks of "stuff which would theoretically have big implications but in practice just isn't true most of the time", and this would be the case even if mice are never specifically stated later on to be mundane. If this hypothetical Mouse Plot story were the only instance of an actual "definition" (so to speak) of mice, current policy would require hypothetical [[Mouse]] to use only Mouse Plot Story as a source for its basic information, but this would lead to some really bizarre readings of any throwaway line mentioning mice, and effectively end up placing ludicrously undue weight on a single story over more sensible interpretations of countless others. Basically, although the Doctor Who universe does demonstrably differ in many respects from ours, Doctor Who stories (being intended for consumption by an Earth audience) are ''mainly'' meant to be read with a fair amount of real-world knowledge filling in definitions, and our curious silence on implicit similarities ''that are very much intended to be assumed'' just ends up making the wiki read oddly.
+:::I believe the only two that commented on this were Epsilon, who considered it sensible, and myself, who called it a blatant violation of [[T:NPOV]], which I maintain to be the case. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:16, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
+:::: [Edit conflict] I disagree with that @[[User:NateBumber|NateBumber]]; the DWU is like the real world until stated otherwise, as authors intend for us to fill in the blanks. But to have a peculiarity, and then say "oh but a bunch of sources released before this peculiarity don't technically show anything that explicitly contradicts the newly-introduced peculiarity, so therefore they support the peculiarity", despite those original sources being written with the real world in mind... is an ''interesting'' take. And it's not that I disagree with the coverage of the peculiarity — in fact I wholly support it — but I disagree with the fact that we're allowing it to overwrite a bunch of sources that could not have anticipated the change! The authors don't have time travel so they could not have been written with the change in mind. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 22:19, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
+It's not that they ''support'' the peculiarity, putting aside our disagreement on the DWU being our universe until proved otherwise. It's that ''they simply do not comment on the issue'' so they fail to contradict it. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
+:Oh, if possible I'd ask that the closing post provide direction on color pages / minute differences between articles of clothing pages. I find something like [[Ebony (colour)]] vs [[Black]] to be, frankly, ridiculous, and both of those pages are of questionable length/veracity to me. (See the above discussion about Cybermen = Silver for what I think is reasonable.) They've been deleted in the past and were then recreated by the same IP user. We should really have a policy on where the line is here. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
+:: Will do. (Though as far as current policy, as I recall they were originally typically deleted because the IP user hadn't learned to Wiki-format properly as much as anything else; and thereafter, they've existed for long enough that I would certainly understand them to be covered by New T:BOUND for the time being.) Still working on closing this, and replying to the R4BP thread for that matter, I've just been… very, very, very busy. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 13:28, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
+::: I'm also going to bring up real world landmarks seen in episodes. As far as I can tell, [[the Gherkin]]... has never actually been named except in {{cs|The Time Traveller's Almanac (reference book)}}, yet the Wiki runs with the name as if it had been used in every episode. So how does the policy as it currently stands impact identifiable buildings like skyscrapers? I've just created [[122 Leadenhall Street]] and I have no idea how the policy covers pages like that.
+::: Now, we could just say "an egg-shaped building", but that is hardly helpful to most readers, and becomes trickier when they have more conventionally boxy shapes. So another reason why the policy needs reform. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 21:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
+::::On a related issue, I'd like to point to [[Eevee]] and [[Talk:Stovepipe hat]]. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)