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{{ | {{archive|Panopticon archives}}[[Category:Discussions without clear resolution]] | ||
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I was just looking through the Third Doctor companions template and I realised that [[Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart]], [[Liz Shaw]], [[John Benton]] and [[Mike Yates]] were on the list under television companions. Is this really correct? I understand how they were the equivalent of companions during the exile to Earth, but they aren't really companions. The Doctor's companions are those that travel with him in the TARDIS, something they never did onscreen. I know it is really a matter of debate, but from my point of view at least, [[Vincent van Gogh]] is more of a companion than Lethbridge-Stewart. These characters are recurring characters. Not all recurring characters are companions and not all companions are recurring characters, but I think we should keep the two seperate. I propose we remove Lethbridge-Stewart and Benton from the template and move Liz and Mike to prose companions, because they did TARDIs-travel in the [[ | I was just looking through the Third Doctor companions template and I realised that [[Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart]], [[Liz Shaw]], [[John Benton]] and [[Mike Yates]] were on the list under television companions. Is this really correct? I understand how they were the equivalent of companions during the exile to Earth, but they aren't really companions. The Doctor's companions are those that travel with him in the TARDIS, something they never did onscreen. I know it is really a matter of debate, but from my point of view at least, [[Vincent van Gogh]] is more of a companion than Lethbridge-Stewart. These characters are recurring characters. Not all recurring characters are companions and not all companions are recurring characters, but I think we should keep the two seperate. I propose we remove Lethbridge-Stewart and Benton from the template and move Liz and Mike to prose companions, because they did TARDIs-travel in the [[PROSE]]s and [[PROSE]]s respectively. [[User:Bigredrabbit|Bigredrabbit]] 04:22, August 6, 2011 (UTC) | ||
Travelling in the TARDIS has nothing to do with being a companion. Really, if someone is part of the main cast for more than an episode than they are a companion. Characters like Van Gogh and Duggan are certainly not companions. Besides, the Brigadier did travel in the TARDIS in ''Mawdryn Undead''[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 19:55, August 6, 2011 (UTC) | Travelling in the TARDIS has nothing to do with being a companion. Really, if someone is part of the main cast for more than an episode than they are a companion. Characters like Van Gogh and Duggan are certainly not companions. Besides, the Brigadier did travel in the TARDIS in ''Mawdryn Undead''[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 19:55, August 6, 2011 (UTC) | ||
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I personally don't count the UNIT soliders as companions, but, I '''Do '''count Liz Shaw as a companion because she is the same as a companion throughout season 7. I don't count the Brig because he's at most a friend of the doctor (if he was a companion why isn't he listed as a companion in "The Web of Fear"?){{Unsigned|Joe.kearney}} | I personally don't count the UNIT soliders as companions, but, I '''Do '''count Liz Shaw as a companion because she is the same as a companion throughout season 7. I don't count the Brig because he's at most a friend of the doctor (if he was a companion why isn't he listed as a companion in "The Web of Fear"?){{Unsigned|Joe.kearney}} | ||
Because his appearances in ''[[The Web of Fear]]'', ''[[The Invasion]]'', ''[[Terror of the Zygons]]'' and ''[[Battlefield]]'' (etc. ?) are just one-offs. In season 7, he is in every story and seems to do a damn sight more for the Doctor than Liz ever did.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 15:31, August 8, 2011 (UTC) | Because his appearances in ''[[The Web of Fear]]'', ''[[The Invasion]]'', ''[[Terror of the Zygons]]'' and ''[[Battlefield (TV story)|Battlefield]]'' (etc. ?) are just one-offs. In season 7, he is in every story and seems to do a damn sight more for the Doctor than Liz ever did.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 15:31, August 8, 2011 (UTC) | ||
I think that the UNIT people should be considered companions, but the Tenth Doctor examples shouldn't. The characters in the 2009 specials were the same as any other characters who appear in only one episode. If they are companions, then there are new companions in every episode. The families of companions are also recurring characters rather than companions, because the Doctor meets them when he is on Earth, but not in multiple consecutive episodes. That would be like saying that Borua is a companion.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 19:47, August 8, 2011 (UTC) | I think that the UNIT people should be considered companions, but the Tenth Doctor examples shouldn't. The characters in the 2009 specials were the same as any other characters who appear in only one episode. If they are companions, then there are new companions in every episode. The families of companions are also recurring characters rather than companions, because the Doctor meets them when he is on Earth, but not in multiple consecutive episodes. That would be like saying that Borua is a companion.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 19:47, August 8, 2011 (UTC) | ||
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:I'd also urge that you not get too hung up on the navigation boxes and categories. They aren't expressions of "the policy of the wiki". They're just there to aid ''navigation''. They're deliberately broad churches, so that no matter what one's personal definition of a companion, one will be able to easily travel between pages. | :I'd also urge that you not get too hung up on the navigation boxes and categories. They aren't expressions of "the policy of the wiki". They're just there to aid ''navigation''. They're deliberately broad churches, so that no matter what one's personal definition of a companion, one will be able to easily travel between pages. | ||
:Please remember that it is not up to us to force a definition on our readers, when the narrative itself doesn't. The article at [[companion]] makes this abundantly clear, and even points to several discussions we as a community have had. There's no way that the average user of the site, having read that article thoroughly, could possibly believe that we as a community are imposing any sort of definition. So, to the extent that we have a policy on companions, it is ''not'' to have a policy. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :Please remember that it is not up to us to force a definition on our readers, when the narrative itself doesn't. The article at [[companion]] makes this abundantly clear, and even points to several discussions we as a community have had. There's no way that the average user of the site, having read that article thoroughly, could possibly believe that we as a community are imposing any sort of definition. So, to the extent that we have a policy on companions, it is ''not'' to have a policy. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''12:47:15 Tue '''09 Aug 2011 </span> | ||
::Oh, I know its been debated a hundred times before, and really this was about Benton and Mike, although I didn't really make that very clear. I just found it a bit odd how everywhere on this wiki it was said that they were companions of the Doctor, when really they were usually quite minor characters in their stories. I mean, the Doctor talked to Benton what, like five times in the whole series? (OK, I know it must've happened a bit more than that). As the situation escalated, I spose I just sort of went crazy with the whole idea and yeah, brought up things that obviously no one else agrees with. I shall now stop posting on this thread, unless of course something really interesting happens on it, which it probably won't. [[User:Bigredrabbit|Bigredrabbit]] 08:17, August 10, 2011 (UTC) | ::Oh, I know its been debated a hundred times before, and really this was about Benton and Mike, although I didn't really make that very clear. I just found it a bit odd how everywhere on this wiki it was said that they were companions of the Doctor, when really they were usually quite minor characters in their stories. I mean, the Doctor talked to Benton what, like five times in the whole series? (OK, I know it must've happened a bit more than that). As the situation escalated, I spose I just sort of went crazy with the whole idea and yeah, brought up things that obviously no one else agrees with. I shall now stop posting on this thread, unless of course something really interesting happens on it, which it probably won't. [[User:Bigredrabbit|Bigredrabbit]] 08:17, August 10, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:::Well, there are good reasons to think Mike and Benton companions. From a purely fictional standpoint, you'd have to give it to Mike because of his status with the ''Fourth'' Doctor in audio. He's unambiguously the Fourth Doctor's [[AudioGo]] companion. No question. Also, from a behind-the-scenes perspective, [[Richard Franklin]] was contracted for the whole of [[season 8]]. In my mind, anyone who receives a ''seasonal'' contract, and is on the side of the Doctor, is a companion. Benton qualifies for a number of reasons, I think. Like Franklin, [[John Levene]] was contracted for season 8. But he also | :::Well, there are good reasons to think Mike and Benton companions. From a purely fictional standpoint, you'd have to give it to Mike because of his status with the ''Fourth'' Doctor in audio. He's unambiguously the Fourth Doctor's [[AudioGo]] companion. No question. Also, from a behind-the-scenes perspective, [[Richard Franklin]] was contracted for the whole of [[Season 8 (Doctor Who 1963)|season 8]]. In my mind, anyone who receives a ''seasonal'' contract, and is on the side of the Doctor, is a companion. Benton qualifies for a number of reasons, I think. Like Franklin, [[John Levene]] was contracted for season 8. But he also | ||
:::*has the record for most appearances of a UNIT soldier other than the Brig. | :::*has the record for most appearances of a UNIT soldier other than the Brig. | ||
:::*definitely knew about and practically witnessed regeneration on television (Mike only got that in other media.) | :::*definitely knew about and practically witnessed regeneration on television (Mike only got that in other media.) | ||
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:::*was the first member of UNIT to enter the Doctor's TARDIS, and has a proper "bigger on the inside moment". | :::*was the first member of UNIT to enter the Doctor's TARDIS, and has a proper "bigger on the inside moment". | ||
:::*made a big enough impression on the Second Doctor that he immediately placed Benton after just ''[[The Invasion]]'' | :::*made a big enough impression on the Second Doctor that he immediately placed Benton after just ''[[The Invasion]]'' | ||
:::*is the only recurring UNIT member, other than Harry, to be in a serial without the Brig in the classic era (''[[The Android Invasion]]'') | :::*is the only recurring UNIT member, other than Harry, to be in a serial without the Brig in the classic era (''[[The Android Invasion (TV story)|The Android Invasion]]'') | ||
:::*is the only UNIT member, other than the Brig and the Doctor, to singlehandedly capture [[the Master]] | :::*is the only UNIT member, other than the Brig and the Doctor, to singlehandedly capture [[the Master]] | ||
:::*was significant enough to the Master that he knew Benton's name. | :::*was significant enough to the Master that he knew Benton's name. | ||
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:::*directly knew eight other companions | :::*directly knew eight other companions | ||
:::*was in far more episodes than the majority of "unambiguous" companions of the 1970s and 1980s. | :::*was in far more episodes than the majority of "unambiguous" companions of the 1970s and 1980s. | ||
:::The case for Yates might well have been tenuous until his recent [[AudioGo]] renaissance, but Benton's a shoo-in, having been around from season 6 to season 13. I think you're being quite disingenuous to say that the Doctor "talked to Benton five times". Benton had a lot more screen time than you're allowing. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :::The case for Yates might well have been tenuous until his recent [[AudioGo]] renaissance, but Benton's a shoo-in, having been around from season 6 to season 13. I think you're being quite disingenuous to say that the Doctor "talked to Benton five times". Benton had a lot more screen time than you're allowing. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''05:12:58 Thu '''11 Aug 2011 </span> | ||
::::I got to wondering about the ubiquity of Benton, and it turns out he was in 65 episodes of DW (John Levene obviously being in more than that, since he was a creature performer before Benton). By way of comparison, Tegan was only in 67 (including ''Caves'' part 4). So he's effectively equal to the longest-running (by consecutive contracted time) companion. SJS was only in 81 eps; Katy Manning in 77. Romana II is far behind at 40, and Romana I is only 26, so Benton's basically the same as the ''entire character'' of Romana. Sophie Aldred is at an almost laughable 31 — laughable because the only 60s companions to do worse were Dodo and Katarina. The only people ''seriously'' ahead of him are Jamie, the Brig, and the first four Doctors (Davison's classic era count is in "the Benton ballpark" at 69, excluding Logopolis, while Six and Seven are dwarfed by the lowly Wendy Padbury's output, and can't be considered really ''serious'' contributors to DW's overall televised output.) | ::::I got to wondering about the ubiquity of Benton, and it turns out he was in 65 episodes of DW (John Levene obviously being in more than that, since he was a creature performer before Benton). By way of comparison, Tegan was only in 67 (including ''Caves'' part 4). So he's effectively equal to the longest-running (by consecutive contracted time) companion. SJS was only in 81 eps; Katy Manning in 77. Romana II is far behind at 40, and Romana I is only 26, so Benton's basically the same as the ''entire character'' of Romana. Sophie Aldred is at an almost laughable 31 — laughable because the only 60s companions to do worse were Dodo and Katarina. The only people ''seriously'' ahead of him are Jamie, the Brig, and the first four Doctors (Davison's classic era count is in "the Benton ballpark" at 69, excluding Logopolis, while Six and Seven are dwarfed by the lowly Wendy Padbury's output, and can't be considered really ''serious'' contributors to DW's overall televised output.) | ||
:::::So, yeah, you can't just dismiss Benton. He's a companion. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :::::So, yeah, you can't just dismiss Benton. He's a companion. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''15:23:44 Thu '''11 Aug 2011 </span> | ||
What about Yates? | What about Yates? | ||
[[Special:Contributions/2.29.64.30|2.29.64.30]] 10:54, August 26, 2011 (UTC) | [[Special:Contributions/2.29.64.30|2.29.64.30]] 10:54, August 26, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:As explained above, Yates is definitely a companion on the basis of his AudioGo work with the Fourth Doctor. The only question about him is whether you could actually call him a companion of the ''Third'' Doctor. I'd say yes — especially when you throw in novels — but others aren't so sure. In any case we're mostly only talking about placement in a navbox, which needs to take the broadest possible view so as to be useful to the greatest number of readers. As has been explained thoroughly at [[companion]] and indeed in notes on the navbox itself, there is no such thing as a definitive list of companions. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :As explained above, Yates is definitely a companion on the basis of his AudioGo work with the Fourth Doctor. The only question about him is whether you could actually call him a companion of the ''Third'' Doctor. I'd say yes — especially when you throw in novels — but others aren't so sure. In any case we're mostly only talking about placement in a navbox, which needs to take the broadest possible view so as to be useful to the greatest number of readers. As has been explained thoroughly at [[companion]] and indeed in notes on the navbox itself, there is no such thing as a definitive list of companions. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''15:20:55 Fri '''26 Aug 2011 </span> | ||
If Captain Yates is considered a Third Doctor companion because he was a Fourth Doctor companion and was in a lot of Third Doctor episodes, then shouldn't Mickey be considered a Ninth Doctor companion? He was a Tenth Doctor companion, and was in about halff of the Ninth Doctor's episodes.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 19:05, August 26, 2011 (UTC) | If Captain Yates is considered a Third Doctor companion because he was a Fourth Doctor companion and was in a lot of Third Doctor episodes, then shouldn't Mickey be considered a Ninth Doctor companion? He was a Tenth Doctor companion, and was in about halff of the Ninth Doctor's episodes.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 19:05, August 26, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:You might want to try reading the paragraph directly above yours before replying to it. CzechOut is not saying Yates is a 3rd Doctor companion because he's a 4th Doctor companion. He's saying Yates is probably a 3rd Doctor companion because of the novels, but it's arguable. --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 03:39, August 27, 2011 (UTC) | :You might want to try reading the paragraph directly above yours before replying to it. CzechOut is not saying Yates is a 3rd Doctor companion because he's a 4th Doctor companion. He's saying Yates is probably a 3rd Doctor companion because of the novels, but it's arguable. --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 03:39, August 27, 2011 (UTC) | ||
Sorry, I haven't read the novels. I thought he was saying that Yates was a Fourth Doctor companion in the novels.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 03:49, August 27, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:He was saying that Yates was a 4th Doctor companion because of the AudioGO audios, not the novels. But in the very next sentence, he says that this doesn't mean he was a 3rd Doctor companion, which he answers in the next sentence by throwing in the novels. How you got from that to he was a 3rd Doctor companion because he was a 4th Doctor companion, I have no idea, since it's pretty much the exact opposite of what he said, in very clear and simple sentences. --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 03:08, August 28, 2011 (UTC) | |||
Yeah, I reread it and I get the point now. I only follow the tv shows, so all the rest sort of blends together for me. Upon rereading, I realize that he was a fourth doctor companion in a different spinoff story from when he was a third doctor companion.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 22:13, August 29, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:Just be glad Reeltime couldn't get him for ''Downtime'', or we'd have to argue about whether he's also a Sarah Jane companion… --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 03:27, August 30, 2011 (UTC) | |||
Well he's over 18, so I doubt it.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 04:15, August 30, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:Mr Smith is around 128. (Or over 65 million, depending how you count. Either way, Sarah Jane calls it "centuries", which I guess is good enough when all of your friends are either 15 or 905.) --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 04:39, August 31, 2011 (UTC) | |||
Yeah, I was kind of being sarcastic, and I don't really consider Mr. Smith a companion. He's really just a talking computerr who givers her advice and once tried to kill her. At least K9 can move around and has an awesome gun in his nose. Either way, this is getting way off topic. Unless anybody has something relevant to say about whether UNIT should be considered companions, they should stay off of this page.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 18:42, August 31, 2011 (UTC) | |||