Forum:Temporary forums/Relaxing the past-tense requirement: Difference between revisions

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-{{retitle|{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}[[Category:Temporary forums]]
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+{{archive}}[[Category:Policy changers]][[Category:Temporary forums archives]]
 == Proposal ==
 The rules regarding our use of verb tenses in articles are described in [[Tardis:Point of view]], [[Tardis:In-universe perspective]], and related policy pages in our Manual of Style. For the most part, these rules have served us very well. However, in some areas the scope of our coverage has changed since these rules were written in 2012, resulting in awkward and confusing results in some cases. By tweaking the rules in four specific circumstances – four changes, ordered below from tamest to boldest – I hope we can improve the wiki's usability while still retaining the style that has guided us from the beginning.
 === Real-world individuals ===
-On our articles for real-world cast and crew, [[Tardis:Out-of-universe perspective]] wisely suggests that we avoid sentences that require the present tense. For instance, rather than introducing [[Mat King]] with "Mat King is a British director", which future editors would have to manually update upon his (hopefully distant) death, [[T:OOU]] instructs us to instead choose an alternative formulation like "Mat King directed the episode ''[[Hide (TV story)|Hide]]'' in ''[[Doctor Who]]'' [[series 7 (Doctor Who)|series 7]]".
+On our articles for real-world cast and crew, [[Tardis:Out-of-universe perspective]] wisely suggests that we avoid sentences that require the present tense. For instance, rather than introducing [[Mat King]] with "Mat King is a British director", which future editors would have to manually update upon his (hopefully distant) death, [[T:OOU]] instructs us to instead choose an alternative formulation like "Mat King directed the episode ''[[Hide (TV story)|Hide]]'' in ''[[Doctor Who]]'' [[series 7 (Doctor Who 2005)|series 7]]".
 However, due to the policy's heavy emphasis on the burden of changing the tense on pages, this has led to the misconception that real-world pages for cast and crew are ''forbidden'' from using present tense. As a result, some of our cast and crew pages introduce their subjects with the format "[Actor] ''was'' a British actor" – implying that they've died!
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 One flexible potential fix for this, and other similar situations where our in-universe coverage style prevents us from highlighting important real-world information about a major character or concept, would be to put a short out-of-universe box at the top of their pages, the space currently usually [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Third_Doctor?oldid=3464053 occupied by cleanup templates.] On [[Jo Grant]] it might say,
-<div class="tech>'''Jo Grant''' was portrayed by [[Katy Manning]] and was the [[Third Doctor]]'s main companion from ''[[Terror of the Autons (TV story)|Terror of the Autons]]'' in [[season 8]] ([[1971 (releases)|1971]]) to ''[[The Green Death (TV story)|The Green Death]]'' in [[season 10]] ([[1973 (releases)|1973]]).</div>
+<div class="tech>'''Jo Grant''' was portrayed by [[Katy Manning]] and was the [[Third Doctor]]'s main companion from ''[[Terror of the Autons (TV story)|Terror of the Autons]]'' in [[Season 8 (Doctor Who 1963)|season 8]] ([[1971 (releases)|1971]]) to ''[[The Green Death (TV story)|The Green Death]]'' in [[Season 10 (Doctor Who 1963)|season 10]] ([[1973 (releases)|1973]]).</div>
 I'm still workshopping this idea, but I mention it in this thread because, of course, it would require an exception to the past tense requirement on those pages in the case of actors who are ''currently'' portraying a character. Looking forward to feedback! – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 21:59, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
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 ::I don't see that as too much of a worry, personally. In the vast majority of cases, it would only requires minor changes when a story is released and it's not as if we don't have to go and remove spoiler tags anyway. [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:29, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
+::: I '''support''' the use of present tense on real world pages. I '''reject''' having an out of universe box at the top of pages for the same reason (too cluttered) as Epsilon stated above. I would also '''reject''' the use of present tense in leads on in universe pages, including [[arm]] or [[yellow]]. I feel use of the word "is" somewhat merges the DWU and the real world, implying that the two are one and the same; it implies that we have a first hand account. I feel that use of the past tense, on the other hand, implies that we are relaying somebody else's account, whether that be the account of a character or a narrator. This is something that we were told about the DWU, not something we have a first hand experience of. I would also agree with Jack that jumping about with tenses would be confusing. [[User:66 Seconds|66 Seconds]] [[User talk:66 Seconds|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:00, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
+I agree with real-world individuals and future material, but I'm iffy on the rest. [[User:Time God Eon|Time God Eon]] [[User talk:Time God Eon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:09, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
+:It's been great watching the discussion here so far; thanks everyone for the thoughts. Just to answer something [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] said, the "present tense in first sentence" would specifically not apply to non-generic nouns like [[Earth]] or [[Traken]]. That's what I was fumbling at with the "present in dictionaries in the real world" condition. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 01:08, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
+::I, quite frankly, don't see the point. I think our current policy is perfectly sensible. With respect to ledes, however, I '''strongly reject''' the idea that they should be written from an OOU perspective. A small box like the one Nate suggests might be a workable compromise if people think this is a good idea, with 2-3 sentences. But I'm very much against anything past that. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:06, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
+:::I also strongly '''reject''' the "present tense in leads" proposal. Looking at it from an admin / enforcement of policy point of view this would be an absolute nightmare to police, it would open up countless cans of worms of people asking 'well why is it present here but not here'.
+:::We already have mostly clearly explained reasons why we have it all in the past tense, this would needlessly complicate things.
+:::I also agree with [[User:Epsilon the Eternal|Epsilon]] that we do not need more templates, and that limiting to a few sentences would force us to focus on only one element like their performance in the Jo Grant example above. Which would go against our [[T:VS]] of not counting one story / medium above another.
+:::I agree that [[T:OOU]] needs some re-writing to emphasise how to write an article in the past tense without implying their demise. —[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 04:49, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
+:::: Popping in to say that, the more that I think about it, I think I'm currently only in favor of relaxing the past-tense requirement on entirely OOU pages and sections. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 20:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
+I'm suddenly realizing that, for some reason, this forum doesn't discuss one of the weirdest things we do on this site when it comes to tense. I understand it's too late now to just throw it in, but I thought I'd mention it for the next time we do something like this.
+Stories, when discussed as pieces of media, out of universe, should be spoken of in the present tense. This is, if they still exist in a way that can be observed. We currently do not do this, and it's terrible. For instance, the opening to ''[[The Horns of Nimon (TV story)|The Horns of Nimon]]'' states:
+: '''''The Horns of Nimon''''' was the fifth and final serial of [[Season 17 (Doctor Who 1963)|season 17]] of ''[[Doctor Who]]''. The original intention was not for ''Horns'' to be the last story, only becoming the case when ''[[Shada (TV story)|Shada]]'' was cancelled. The story marked [[David Brierley]]'s final vocal appearance as [[K9 Mark II|K9]] as [[John Leeson]] returned to the role from ''[[The Leisure Hive (TV story)|The Leisure Hive]]'' onwards. Moreover, it was the final story to be broadcast, in full or in part, during the 1970s and the first during the 1980s.
+This is grammatically incorrect. This is what the opening should look like:
+: '''''The Horns of Nimon''''' is the fifth and final serial of [[Season 17 (Doctor Who 1963)|season 17]] of ''[[Doctor Who]]''. The original intention was not for ''Horns'' to be the last story, only becoming the case when ''[[Shada (TV story)|Shada]]'' was cancelled. The story marks [[David Brierley]]'s final vocal appearance as [[K9 Mark II|K9]] after [[John Leeson]] returned to the role from ''[[The Leisure Hive (TV story)|The Leisure Hive]]'' onwards. Moreover, it was the final story to be broadcast, in full or in part, during the 1970s and the first during the 1980s.
+You'll note that whenever the story is mentioned as something which can be observed, the present tense is used. This is because we are discussing something which currently exists. The only exception to this which should be made is when this ''can't'' be said, such as for stage plays, real world events, and specific lost media cases (''Worlds in Time''). Past tense is also used when we're, essentially, discussing an event the the story was involved in (like being broadcast for the first time).
+Pretend we're discussing a baseball in a museum. "The baseball was thrown as the World Series. It has a red stripe." Past tense for former event involved, present tense for descriptor of thing-that-currently-exists.
+The point is that saying "The Horns of Nimon ''was'' the fifth and final serial of series 17" implies that it doesn't exist anymore. And we literally only have pages written this way because of an extremely outdated fear of the present tense! [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 22:32, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
+:I think I '''support''' this change (as well as changing to future tense for stories that have yet to be released). The more I think about it, though, the more I think we should not change tenses for in-universe articles, though. Although I do think that the idea of a small OOU lede above the IU lede for some pages might be good. [[User:Pluto2|Pluto2]][[User talk:Pluto2|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:39, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
+::If I remember correctly, the reasoning was that it was because it was something that happened in the past. '''The Horns of Nimon''' isn’t a current story. The story is from the past, therefore it was given past tense, as it’s not a story that keeps happening. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
+::: But it is a story that keeps happening. If I put it on my TV right now, it's happening as I watch it. I'm not going to, but I could.
+::: As per the OOU lead, the more that I think about it we should just make /Behind the scenes a thing. If people want OOU mini-articles let's just make those a subpage then finish work on the thing at the top of pages which links to all the subpages. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 02:00, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
+::::''Technically'' it depends on what "the serial" is. Whether "the serial" is the original production, the original transmission, a particular idea embodied in a particular mind, a recurring string of symbols (or sets of strings of symbols) in the world with shared characteristics, a sort of cultural artefact that evolves over time, or some sort of platonic ideal. Some of these should be tensed in the past, some in the present, some either the past or the present, and one perhaps not at all. Yes it's confusing. But it's not like the option chosen is insane. Identifying "the serial" with the original transmission and/or the original production is a ''reasonable'' thing to do, and would entail to tense phrasings in the past. (Probably the ''most'' correct is to not tense things at all, but good luck doing that in English. (inb4 this offhand comment starts an argument)) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:40, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
+:::::No I think you have a point, it falls under the "lost media" thing I mentioned.
+:::::For instance, yes a BBC website which is now offline should be past tense, as should ''Worlds in Time''. But we have to keep in mind that all ''DW'' serials exist in some form, even if just as audio. I would like to point out that the Wikipedia pages on "lost" serials, such as {{wi|The Power of the Daleks}}, do indeed speak in the present tense.
+:::::But it might be appropriate to speak of the visuals in the past tense in some contexts. "In the story, the Monk's TARDIS was seen to turn into a few alternate exteriors." etc. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 03:14, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
+(Oh, the argument I mentioned was more likely to be with Scrooge or Nate. The offhand comment ''in the parenthetical'' is what I was joking about there.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:55, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
+: I did end up creating an example of an out-of-universe lead over at [[User:Epsilon the Eternal/OOU leads]], if anyone is interested.
+<div class="mw-collapsible"><div class="tech">
+{{User:Epsilon the Eternal/OOU leads}}
+</div></div>
+: As OOU leads are such a large (and contentious) change, I really want to appeal for this to be covered in a seperate thread, not permanently shut down here. Is that okay with the admins? {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 19:54, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
+:: I will agree with moving this to another topic, since there's even a topic submission at [[T:TF]] as we speak. However, I am unlikely to change my position that what you have pitched here would be better served at a real-world subpage than an OOU lead. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 20:17, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
+: Just commenting on the proposal itself, I would '''strongly oppose''' out-of-universe leads for DWU topics, but '''happily support''' future-tense for real world subjects, at least so long as we employ a tagging system like {{tlx|as of}}. Something like {{tlx|tense|d{{=}}November 2015}} or {{tlx|tense|d{{=}}November 2015|will be}}, either in-line or for the whole article.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 20:30, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
+:: Actually, I suppose adding something to {{tlx|spoiler}} could also work for tagging purposes? We could even do it with SMW, so we're not constantly having to delete unnecessary categories.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 20:32, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
+== Conclusion ==
+<div class="tech">
+It seems there is '''broad consensus in favour of relaxing [[T:OOU]] regarding the across-the-board application of past tense'''. Indeed, [[User:OttselSpy25]] rightly points out that "[[David Tennant]] was an actor" was never what the policy recommended; rather, we were advised to route ''around'' such tense-sensitive phrasing by saying "[[David Tennant]] portrayed the [[Tenth Doctor]] on television starting in…". But the proliferation of "was" cases proves, I think, that we cannot rely on such linguistic jackanapery always being possible. '''Although they should be minimised for the sake of saving future editing, it is now permitted to write about real-world subjects in the present tense when appropriate''', most importantly for human beings who are still alive.
+Likewise, '''authorising future tense for upcoming/spoilery topics''' is entirely sensible and '''is now allowed'''. As a corollary, if it is indeed possible, '''{{tlx|spoiler}} should be fitted with date variables modelled after {{tlx|as of}}''' as suggested by [[User:SOTO]]. That way, we can keep an automatic maintenance table, and always see when tense updates are past due. (Given that I don't think we'll need it on any pages that don't already bear the {{tlx|Spoiler}} tag, it seems wiser to put it there than to create a new template. But if this proves technically challenging, don't let this ruling stand in the way of doing it via a different template, of course.)
+With regards to leads of the form "''[[The Horns of Nimon (TV story)|The Horns of Nimon]]'' was…", I find myself sympathetic to [[User:Najawin]]'s argument that this is not incorrect, nor even particularly arbitrary. It would be one thing to say "''[[Alien Bodies (novel)|Alien Bodies]]'' was a novel", and that sort of phrasing should be avoided. But when we use phrasings such as "''[[The Horns of Nimon (TV story)|The Horns of Nimon]]'' was the final broadcast episode of [[Season 17 (Doctor Who 1963)|Season 17]]", or "''[[Alien Bodies (novel)|Alien Bodies]]'' was the sixth novel in the [[BBC Eighth Doctor Adventures|BBC ''Eighth Doctor Adventures'' series]]", it's clear that the "narrative voice" of the Wiki is placing the work at issue within the historical context of its initial release. Season 17 ''was'' a one-time, ongoing cultural event, as much as it ''is'' a still-existing collection of stories you can pop in your DVD player at will. '''We shouldn't ban referring to stories in the present tense when appropriate, but the current widespread format is also valid, and there should be no massive campaign to "correct" it.'''
+Finally, I think nobody will be surprised by my conclusion that real-world/present-tense leads '''do not pass''', although in accordance with consensus, '''the topic is allowed to be discussed again at greater length as its own bespoke thread in the future'''. With regards to present-tense leads for the likes of [[yellow]], I frankly do not see the point. Yes, people on Twitter (and other not-wes) occasionally make fun of us for it, but people on Twitter occasionally make fun of any and everything. It's not a good reason to do anything. It ''amuses'' them, but I don't see how it can ever ''mislead'' or ''hinder'' them in their browsing of the Wiki, so it doesn't impinge on our usefulness as a Wiki.
+And in truth, talk of [[Tardis:In-universe perspective|end-of-the-universe perspectives]] and the like sort of bury the lede. It's perfectly normal for the narrative voice of a work of fiction to use the past tense across the board, even without a particular sci-fi-slanted "point of view". I might write a contemporary detective novel set in Paris where the narrator says things like "Paris was too large a city for the Inspector to have any hope of finding the fugitive again"; or indeed, "The Inspector didn't like the place; it was too yellow. Yellow was a dour, insalubrious colour, and men of taste rarely liked it". When it's done in such a context, no one screenshots it and jeers that hey, look, ''Murder at the Arc de Triomphe'' secretly takes place in a post-apocalyptic world where Paris and the colour yellow no longer exist! Mind blown!<ref>Okay, as soon as I typed it out, I remembered that very silly people sometimes use the past tense of ''1984''<nowikI>'s</nowiki> epilogue to argue a similar point that the Party "secretly" falls at some point in the book's canonical future. But it's rather daft when they do that, and besides, there ''are'' extenuating circumstances.</ref> If it doesn't bother people ''there'', it shouldn't bother people ''here'', and it's not our fault if they can't get over themselves.
+More serious perhaps is the matter of our run-on-sentence-laden in-universe ledes which fail to communicate essential BTS information effectively. But that's very much outside the scope of a thread titled for merely "relaxing the past-tense requirement". For what it's worth, I find myself more sympathetic than not to the idea of an OOU "header" that complements the in-universe lede without replacing it; yes, yes, one more template, clutter, etc., but consider that mainteance templates like {{tlx|cleanup}} are "clutter" because the vast majority of readers and indeed editors are ''not'' going to act on their content, nor even consider doing so, so it's just an irrelevant hurdle they have to scroll past. It wouldn't be clutter in at all the same way if the box contained important information ''directed'' at casual readers, now would it? But as I said, this is way, way out from the scope of this thread and should be reviewed in a different one.
+As always, thanks to everyone who participated!
+=== Footnotes ===
+{{reflist}}
+— [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 01:14, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
+</div>