Forum:Reforming Tardis:Video policy: Difference between revisions

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 :You further agree [...] Not to upload, post, email, transmit, link to or otherwise make available any content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights of any party
 If the stuff we're linking to ''isn't'' fair use (and I suspect that much of it is not), we're violating this. It's ToU, not legal problems for us per se. Do we care in writing our rules? I dunno. Do we? [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
+:For the record, literally the only reason I know this is because I wrote up [[Forum:10 Years on, Amnesty Once More]], read the ToU for the sockpuppet portion, and looked through the block log and some people had local blocks for violating this policy. From, I think, Amorkuz. It's weirdly broad. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
+::To hell with the old system, honestly. It’s ancient and decaying. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
+::: To be honest I am uncertain how the ToU even functions given that there exist many Fandom Wikis, like the [https://lostmediaarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Lost Media Archive Wiki], completely relies on unlicensed uploads of media onto YouTube. I can't help but feel enforcing that rule would be rather of an uphill battle for Fandom to pursue else they'll need to have Fandom staff comb every single Wiki (and probably misunderstand ones like ours where the BBC doesn't own all the copyrights to everything in ''Who''! "[[Andy Frankham-Allen]] is writing books about [[Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart|a guy]] from the 1970s era of ''Doctor Who'' and has uploaded a trailer for his book on YouTube? That's gotta be unlicensed.") {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 19:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
+::::Spongebob or Czech might be the best people to ask? People used to direct questions on [[T:VID]] to Czech, so if he has the time to respond... [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
+::::: The way I tend to interpret that part of the ToU (and I'm not, of course, a Fandom employee or a lawyer) is that it's there just to protect Fandom's back just in case a license holder does ask them "hey, why are you allowing this copyrighted content to be hosted on your platform?". They can then point to that bit of the ToU and say "we don't allow it, thanks for bringing it to our attention". I don't think Fandom goes around actively enforcing the rule (although, again, this is nothing like an official statement or admin ruling, just my opinion based on what I've observed). In any case, we violate this rule all the time. The clause extends to image uploads and, despite what we may claim, many of these are not fair use and definitely infringe copyright. We pretty much just hope that nobody cares. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
+:::::: I'm of the same opinion. It seems to me that this FANDOM policy should ban most of our activities as a Wiki - linking to videos seems like a minor thing by contrast. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 21:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
+Sure. The question, it seems to me, is whether our policy can actively encourage people to violate ToU, or be broad enough, without actively encouraging them, that we know that people will inevitably do so. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
+: Surely you can at least agree that under this reading, linking to official material (which could otherwise be uploaded) should be allowed? I think we should be able to link interviews and the such. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 21:34, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
+:: As an example of where being able to link to YouTube videos would be helpful, I'm currently researching ''[[The Faceless Ones (TV story)|The Faceless Ones]]'' heavily and would very much like to be able to cite a few documentaries I found on YouTube in one of my upcoming drafts, but there is currently no way for me to be able to. I see this as comparable to citing an unofficial reference book or fanzine which we do allow. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:41, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
+::: Linking to ''official'' material is clearly acceptable, yes (imo). Linking to unofficial material runs into precisely the issue discussed. And it's a real headache, but it's Fandom ToU. We could, potentially, develop an in-house citation style for youtube reference works and ask spongebob. Or specifically ask spongebob just generically about this issue. But, you know, as the ToU is written it's technically a violation if this stuff isn't actually fair use. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
+:::: I think Bongo is absolutely on the mark here. If we have a page on something like ''[[Downtime – The Lost Years of Doctor Who]]'', allowing us to freely cite its contents, then why can't we have a way to cite YouTube documentaries? There must be a solution somehow. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 04:54, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
+:::::I agree with this. I think we are overthinking way too much about what bad things could come from this that that we are stalling what could make the wiki so much better. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:52, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
+Those two things are ''often'' qualitatively distinct, in that many self described YouTube documentaries claim to be fair use but are not. (Again, the bar for commentary and criticism is stricter than what many people think it is.) Since something like Downtime ''isn't showing clips of copyrighted material'' it's going to be a lot easier for it to be kosher.
+Are we overthinking this? I mean. Maybe? It's not like Fandom pays us much attention unless they want something from us. But it ''is'' ToU, and the question of whether we can tacitly encourage users to violate ToU is actually pretty important. If there ever ''is'' an issue, I could imagine this policy change being pointed to as a reason to take a heavier hand.
+Again, if you want, I can ask Spongebob or Czech. We can work up some wording that tries to push back the responsibility of everything involved being fair use on the uploader of the documentary/person claiming fair use (and we might specifically say that you still can't link to material that's copyrighted outside of claims of fair use, idk, we can decide on that), and that if the copyright holder wishes the link removed they need only contact an admin, and we can try asking if that's okay. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:16, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
+: I asked Spongebob (off-wiki via Discord, although I'm sure he'd be happy to verify on-wiki) about linking to fan documentaries and the like. This was the response I received:
+{{quote|Hey! Linking to the videos wouldn't be an issue our end as we're not hosting them - YouTube are. If a video is taken down from YouTube, then the YouTube embed or link won't display the video.
+Clearly we'd prefer you didn't link to YouTube videos containing full episodes that are illegally uploaded, but clips, fan documentaries etc will be fine. I would bear in mind that if we're asked to take them down by the Copyright holder, we would have to honor that though.|[[User:Spongebob456|Spongebob456]]}}
+: This seems pretty clear-cut to me. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:10, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
+::/shrug/ Alright then. I'd probably still suggest writing up our policy in a way that pushes responsibility off of us. :P [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:29, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
+::: Sounds good! This also opens the door to clips of episodes that fans have uploaded onto video sites that the BBC haven't, as the BBC rarely upload more than a handful of clips from a given episode on YT, especially of less... plot-relevant scenes (what immediately comes to mind is [[Muriel Frost]]'s appearance in the news, picked up on the [[TARDIS scanner]], when Nine, Rose, and Mickey are in the TARDIS while Jackie calls the police to report the Doctor, which no uploads exist of online). {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 19:55, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
+:::: I'm thinking of if we should allow video uploads of cultural references. I think it we list, say, [[W:c:siivagunner:List of rips referencing media/Live-action#Doctor Who|references in the SiIvaGunner channel]] on one of the "[[Cultural references to the Doctor Who universe|Cultural references to the ''Doctor Who'' universe]]" pages (as that's what they are), it would be good to be able to embed at least one of the more notable ''DW''-themed uploads from the channel (also clips from other series where the reference is purely audio-based). [[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
+I think it’s time we either revive discussion on this Forum debate or find a conclusion to it. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:45, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
+:Still think we should allow video uploads from accounts that are not official as long as the videos make sense to have. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:38, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
+:: I think our policy should be that we *prefer* offical uploads, and we absolutely discourage low-quality uploads that have only survived in the YouTube ecosystem for being of so poor quality (hazy edges, low frame-rate, etc).
+:: But given that FANDOM's policy is that we can imbed whatever we want, as imbedding is not uploading, I do think we should branch outside of "official" sources, especially for obscure things like, say, a ''Doctor Who'' Pinball instructional video. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 06:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
+::: Is there any way that we can stop now, pass the resolution on non-admins uploading videos, and then continue this debate? This old rule is just seriously maddening and holding us back. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 20:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
+:::: I support this suggestion. With the broadcast of {{cs|Wild Blue Yonder (TV story)}}, the Official Doctor Who YouTube channel has uploaded a bunch of new videos... which I can't upload. >:( {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 20:59, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
+::::: If action could be taken on this forum thread, it would be appreciated as its scope effects the content of [[Forum:Video subpages]], as it would allow a greater selection of videos to be added to the proposed new subpage type. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 18:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
+Agreed. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:34, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
+:So… if we could get this Forum debate up and running again, or if we could have it concluded, it would be great. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
+::It’s time to get this thread going again. It’s been neglected way too long. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:31, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
+=== Post-fork ===
+So considering that a good amount of the above debate was dedicated to clarifying what FANDOM's policies on this issue are, it's perhaps now important to establish that we are no longer a FANDOM site. I'm sure our new host will have their own rules, but I can only imagine they will agree with us that linking to something is not the same thing as uploading it to our site. It would be without legal precedent for Tardis.Wiki to be sued by the BBC for embedding a clip we didn't upload, nor for linking to a clip in a discussion.
+Because of that - I now propose that we do away with the rule banning linking to online video websites. So in total, these are the rule suggestions I propose:
+* Anyone can "upload" videos to the new Wiki, as long as they do not break content rules (no nudity, etc).
+* Anyone can link to or at least reference the existence of videos on other sites, as long as the sites are PG and legal.
+This leaves a final point of contention. Should we only include official uploads? I think, given the circumstances, there is nothing wrong with occasionally embedding non-official uploads. If the videos are taken down, we can remove them from our pages. But I think that any resource, from the BBC or otherwise, that helps our casual readers understand these topics is wholly good.
+I do think we should have some standards, however. We should likely discourage channels that add watermarks or blur the footage to confuse copyright bots. Not Funny Family Guy Moments accounts. But at the very least, if I want to upload the official DW Pinball instructional video, stuff like that should be allowed. [[User:OttselSpy25|OttselSpy25]] [[User talk:OttselSpy25|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:32, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
+: The PG aspect seems based on a misapprehension! We're in fact ''freer'' to discuss NSFW things than we were at Fandom, so long as it's properly tagged. (I understand more technologically-inclined people than I are working on a system to blur NSFW images by default which people could then click to un-blur at their discretion. I'm not sure it could extend to thumbnails, so I suppose videos with NSFW ''thumbnails'' might be prohibited…?… I can't imagine that would come up often, though, and you could certainly still link to them with the proper warnings.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
+::Well that may be true, but I think on principle we should discourage people uploading the opening scene to ''[[Zygon: When Being You Just Isn't Enough]]''. [[User:OttselSpy25|OttselSpy25]] [[User talk:OttselSpy25|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::<s>Should we?</s> Well, that may be, but in any event NSFW does also cover things like gore/violence, of which we also have a fair bit here and there. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::: Honestly, I understand why it might seem smart to decline closing this forum until we'd have a post-fork consensus. But I think the average editor's likelihood of contributing to a debate this old is much lower than if we "forked" the thread itself. I think the best call right now would be for an admin to make final judgements on most, if not all, of the original opening talking points, with a post-fork sequel thread then being started. [[User:OttselSpy25|OttselSpy25]] [[User talk:OttselSpy25|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:50, 6 June 2024 (UTC)