Forum:Validity: An Adventure in Space and Time: Difference between revisions

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 :: They very much contain fictive information. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 18:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
-:::I think the Dalek annuals precedent is the relevant one here: this is a story made under the Doctor Who license regardless of whether it elects to use any of the elements of that license, and we cover it on that basis, like the Dalek-less Dalek-annual stories.
+:::: I think the Dalek annuals precedent is the relevant one here: this is a story made under the Doctor Who license regardless of whether it elects to use any of the elements of that license, and we cover it on that basis, like the Dalek-less Dalek-annual stories.
-:: I mean, that may be so, but I think the obvious precedent that nobody has yet brought up is the ''[[Fanboys (short story)|Fanboys]]'' precedent - it has no DWU licensed elements of its own except those portrayed in an out of universe manner. Also [[The Airzone Solution (novelisation)]]. There is clear precedent for this sort of thing. {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 18:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+::: I mean, that may be so, but I think the obvious precedent that nobody has yet brought up is the ''[[Fanboys (short story)|Fanboys]]'' precedent - it has no DWU licensed elements of its own except those portrayed in an out of universe manner. Also [[The Airzone Solution (novelisation)]]. There is clear precedent for this sort of thing. {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 18:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+::::''Fanboys'' is set within a larger anthology, so not analogous imo, it's automatically creating ''new'' DWU IP. (I did think about ''Fanboys'' as a possible counter example, but dismissed it for this reason.) Didn't comment on the Dalek Annuals stuff before b/c I forgot. My response is that it all falls under this basic idea, and AAiSaT doesn't. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+::::: And, for another point in support of keeping these on the same page: each section has a particular ''point''. The first section is to show an off-screen event, the second is to feature a character after the events of the story, and the third is to fix any sort of plot hole. Under a common theming of a time period or a character/actor, these stories set to do three very specific, very related things. They are 1000% not meant to be separate stories. The proposed split entirely goes against the content and format of the stories and is being ''entirely'' done to get around the thorny issue of one of these sections providing a monologue from a character we deem to be an invalid source — but as far as the story is concerned, each part is about characters played by [[William Russell]]. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 18:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+<gallery position="center" captionalign="center" widths="200">
+Loose Ends 5 Ian Memoriam.jpg|''Loose Ends 5: Ian Memoriam''
+annual contents.jpg|''Doctor Who The Official Annual 2006'' contents page
+Van Statten Code page.jpg|''The Van Statten Code'' page
+</gallery>
+:::::: I've gone to the extent of uploading a copy of the story to the Wiki whilst redacting the text to not run afoul of copyright — but you can see the ''formatting'' of the page, and how it is ''not'' three entirely different works. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 18:55, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+@Najawin And ''Airzone Solution''? {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 19:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+: @Epsilon: "…and is being ''entirely'' done to get around the thorny issue of one of these sections providing a monologue from a character we deem to be an invalid source"
+: No it isn't! I say, don't you tell me about my own mind-states! I hadn't paid attention to these things before now, which is the only reason I didn't raise this matter earlier. Again, I do not dispute that they are in publishing terms a single item within the magazine, and formatted as such. But ''as fiction'' each section is its own little self-sufficient narrative. You can't give a plot summary that accounts for both, you're just left with two plot summaries that aren't talking about each other besides ''maybe'' having a character or location in common. Here, the Ian and Harry sections don't even have a ''diegetic universe'' in common; representing them under the same plot summary would, I think, misrepresent the intent of each individual text by implying these events are in any way, shape or form related from a fictional point of view.
+: @Aquanafrahudy, I don't know what ''Aizone Solution'' has to do with any of this. It's covered on the tenuous but tangibly licensed basis of mentioning an in-universe TV series about [[P.R.O.B.E.]] (not, mind you, mentioning the real-world DTV series, but an imaginary ''X-Files''-esque TV series about the characters); and it features no DWU-fictional elements besides that. That's very different from a docudrama which may or may not be licensed for the fictional things it depicts as fictional. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+::The invalid story that makes no pretense towards depicting the real world? I'm just not seeing the analogy, sorry. I don't even think PROBE could have been fair use in this instance! The series isn't being portrayed as it actually exists in the real world. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:51, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::Don't get mad at Epsilon, Scrooge, he's the reincarnation of B F Skinner. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::: @[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] apart from anything else. We have precedent for such coverage. [[PROSE]]: {{cs|Have You Seen This Man? (short story)}} (and its sequels) and all those reference books that have lots of bits of fiction united by a common character like the Doctor and [[PROSE]]: {{cs|Honeymoon Horrors (short story)}}, which covers many smaller pieces of fiction that make up a larger whole. The latter of which '''''you''''' created.
+:::: So you are not only arguing for something that unnaturally splits works of fiction from how they're intended to consume, you are advocating for a double standard that entirely contravenes a precedent you yourself [[Talk:Honeymoon Horrors (short story)|argued ''for'']].
+:::: And while the common element of ''this'' story is more tenuous given its based on an actor, the rest of the series is absolutely more connected! We have stories united by the common elements of the Sixth Doctor, the 1960s, the Regency era, Ancient Egypt... these stories absolutely, 100% fall under the "shared element idea".
+:::: There is absolutely zero difference between {{cs|Loose Ends 2: The 1960s (short story)}} being united by the [[1960s]] to {{cs|Honeymoon Horrors (short story)}} being united by [[Sardicktown]] and {{cs|Have You Seen This Man? (short story)}} being united by the [[Ninth Doctor]] (the latter, admittedly, having a loose framing narrative). This story may be a little bit of an outlier, but what you are arguing for affects the coverage of not just this entire series, but ''many'' similar works. And we absolutely need to consider that the rest of the series is more thematically consistent. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 21:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+::::: @Scrooge What fictional things does AAiSaT present as fictional? {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 21:04, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::::: Sorry, misinterpreted that comment. What I mean to say is, in ''Airzone Solution'', P.R.O.B.E is treated as a fictional organisation, and references the movie franchise BBV made. This is the only reason we cover it. This is pretty much the same situation we have here, with the fictional things from ''Doctor Who'' being treated, in-universe, as fictional things, and nothing else. Like in ''Airzone Solution''. {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 21:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+But it's treated as fictional give or take in a way that's accurate to the real world in AAiSaT, whereas this isn't true in ''Airzone Solution''. In the second case it ''has'' to be licensed, it the first it doesn't. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+: I don't think it has to be licensed in the second case at all, I could well put in a story that a character enjoyed ''PROBE'' , and that wouldn't be breaking copyright, it'd be a cultural reference. {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 22:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+::If you ''accurately describe what PROBE is'', yes. If, however, you take the creative content of PROBE, and ''don't merely describe it'', but use it as inspiration for a different fictional series that bares the same name but is meaningfully different in various ways, that's where the issue emerges. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::It is to be fair a mention, which would probably be fair game either way, but… never mind. The fact is that it specifically ''was'' licensed, and does not otherwise use any DWU elements from the real-world's perspective.
+::: Anyway, @Epsilon, I still think those cases present implied narratives, or otherwise have an artistic point to the juxtaposition that justifies giving them a single plot summary. ''Honeymoon Horrors'' implicitly tells the story of Amy and Rory's honeymoon in several stages, ending in Sardicktown. ''Have You Seen This Man?'' is united by the framing device. Etc.
+::: Whereas, again, ''Ian Memoriam''… simply isn't a single story. It might be a single… literary work… but there is no sense in which you can write a summary that accounts for both segments without giving the mistaken impression that they exist in the same universe. Even "in another universe" would be misleading, implying that Harry exists in a parallel universe relative to Ian Chesterton, as opposed to in a completely incompatible diegetic framework altogether. You can't mention them in the same fiction-describing sentence without giving readers the wrong idea! That's my issue! --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::: You are failing to see the bigger picture. Yes, {{cs|Loose Ends 5: Ian Memoriam (short story)}} is an outlier due to its overall theme being an out-of-universe one. But the previous four instalments ''do'' meet the criteria you outline! Instead of changing the coverage of the ''entire series'' to accommodate a single edge-case, why don't we just, y'know, ''treat the edge case as an edge case instead of treating it as a representative of the entire series''?
+:::: (But for the record, I don't consider the OOU commonality to be enough of an outlier to change my stance that it is enough of a shared element to befit the overall series.) {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 22:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
+::::: @Najawin As far as I'm aware ''Airzone Solution''... doesn't do this? From what I'm aware of, one of the characters mentions being a fan of the real-life P.R.O.B.E series, and that is why the series is covered? Hence it seems to be an analogous situation. {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 08:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
+I'm basing this off of Scrooge's characterization.
+:mentioning an in-universe TV series about [[P.R.O.B.E.]] (not, mind you, mentioning the real-world DTV series, but an imaginary ''X-Files''-esque TV series about the characters)
+This isn't describing series!PROBE ''as it is'', but as it ''might be'', which is the issue. If it doesn't do this, that's neat, but I still don't think it's a defeater to my argument, because one of these is, well, a docudrama, and the other isn't. AAiSaT has always been a weird one on this wiki. Check the early edit history, it's people disagreeing on how to handle it. The header is custom made on that page, rather than a template like {{tlx|Non-fiction}}. Frankly I think validating it would be the ultimate reductio ad absurdum ''against'' R4bp, but I'd be very happy if we could come out of this thread with some slightly more standardized rules on how to handle documentaries and docudramas. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
+:: I mean, I find the way we cover it rather bizarre, really. Fiction's fiction, even if it's historical and aiming for (some occasionally extremely liberal form of) historical accuracy. For my money it should be covered as a normal {{tlx|invalid}} source. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::I think "Fiction's fiction" is reductive. I used to watch Nova. There would occasionally be little snippets that alleged to show historical events as they happened, while the main bit of the show was really interviews and exposition. It's a documentary series. But often these historical events didn't actually happen the way Nova described them, as you realize when you learn more about them. I'll admit to not having ''seen'' [[The Science of Doctor Who (2012 documentary)]], but even if this doesn't occur here, if some time they do an updated version of it with vignettes like this, "fiction is fiction" might have us validating them. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:50, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
+::::I didn't say "validating" — I don't think ''AAiS&T'' should be valid, unless something really unexpected happens. I just think it should be covered as invalid fiction. What you describe is one thing, but it would fail Rule 1 — whereas ''AAiS&T'' isn't a "docudrama" in the "historian talks while stylised reconstructions of events play out", it's very much a dramatic film, more akin to a biopic or a historical film than a documentary. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:45, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
+I mean, the obvious rejoinder is "ahem, R4bp" + "but you could put mini title cards in front of each of the vignettes and then they seem to pass R1". I do understand the differences in genre you're referring to, but the "fiction is fiction" maxim doesn't seem to allow for this nuance, is all. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
+:: Oh, forgive a man a bit of hyperbole. The line may get fuzzy at the outermost edges, I just think ''AAiS&T'' is comfortably on the inside of that line. (Although R4BP cannot, actually, counteract a R1 failure.) --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:45, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::(Yes yes, of course. It's the title cards that do that.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::: I've not got too much to say here that hasn't already been said, but I would like to question the repeated references to {{w|fair use}}. Fair use is a concept of the US copyright system. As far as I'm aware, there aren't any relevant US companies involved with AAiTaS. Therefore, fair use is not at all relevant. The closest equivelant in UK law is {{w|fair dealing}} which is much more restrictive and I'm pretty certain that AAiTaS could not qualify for protection under fair dealing. Hence, if we make the assumption that it was a legal production (which I think is a fair assumption for something that the BBC produced and released), it had a license to use the copyrighted content it includes so R2 should not be a concern. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|☎]] 13:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
+I was going to respond by citing a pdf I found on Canada's fair dealing law, but just to be safe I looked at the UK's. Jesus Christ. I maintain, once again, that we in the States need to annex you because you live in a third world country. We will bring basic human rights, I promise.
+I'll agree that it's most definitely licensed everything involved, sure. I'm not sure this means R2 isn't a concern. We still don't have any clear indication that there's any ''DWU'' licenses in question. The one that's being discussed is 11 or 15. But 11 was ''never'' established as such as opposed to Matt Smith, and 15 is only established as such in a youtube video. Which is its own can of worms. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
+: The ''Americans''. ''Restore'' rights. (Cackles.) But we're really off the topic.
+: I don't know that fair use here is so much the point as the difference between using a copyrighted thing and referencing its existence as a point of real-world history. But regardless, I think "it's released under the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' label" still makes it qualify for the Dalek-annuals precedent — something which its inclusion in [[Whoniverse (BBC iPlayer)|Whoniverse]] only underlines; note our coverage of the Delia Derybishire documentary on the basis of its inclusion there. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
+::But I addressed that above - it's just not analogous. The nature of the Dalek Annuals is such that it was inherently creating new DWU IP, which isn't the case here. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:46, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::: We still don't have any clear indication that there's any DWU licenses in question.
+::: The Daleks and the TARDIS pop up all over the place, don't they? {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 20:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
+:: @Najawin: I don't understand your argument. Could you rephrase?
+:: @Aquana, yes, but the argument goes that you don't need a license to depict a real historical event, even if that event happens to be "people in Dalek costumes filming ''The Dead Planet''". So as long as no diegetically real versions appear, you wouldn't strictly speaking ''need'' the license.--[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::They're being licensed ''as real world props'', not as ''IU versions'' of Daleks and TARDISes. Not even as IU versions of the props related to Daleks and TARDISes in the IU show. That's just not how they're being treated. Bongo has convinced me that under UK law I think you ''would'' need a license, because UK law is awful, but that's still not sufficient - these aren't ''DWU'' properties, in any meaningful sense.
+:::The Dalek Annuals case is one where the work has licensed all of the relevant IP - an empty set, but is generating new IP, intended to be in the DWU, ''because it's part of a larger anthology''. Which isn't the case here. Same as ''Fanboys'', or parts of ''Contributors''. But not this. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
+:: I don't understand what you mean by "generating new IP" that ''AAiS&T'' doesn't fulfill! Nor do I think the anthology thing is determinative. I think if BBC Books published a wholly original, and non-Rule-4-passing, novel, but marketed it as part of their ''[[Doctor Who]]'' line, i.e. using their license to the ''Doctor Who'' trademark itself as a ''brand'' — I think that would fulfill Rule 2 and we would cover that novel as an invalid source.
+:: Though even accepting such terms, again, [[Whoniverse (BBC iPlayer)|Whoniverse]]. As of 2023 ''AAiS&T'' has appeared as part of a wider, branded collection of stuff making use of a DWU umbrella title, and this is considered grounds for coverage of the Derbyshire documentary, so there you are. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::I think part of the problem here is that you're thinking in terms of R1-3 as being T:CS, and R4 as being T:VS, re:[[Forum:Rule 4 by Proxy and its ramifications: considered in the light of the forum archives]], which, you know, hasn't been adjudicated on yet, and is due to be spun off into other discussions along these lines. (No shade to anyone reading this, just a statement of fact.) I just don't think this way, I think that there's one rule, [[T:VS]], and what we ''cover'' is a messy issue that comes largely from reading that rule through precedent and [[T:BOUND]]. I don't think it's clear that there's a hard and fast line demarcating rules 1-3 as being T:CS, and rule 4 as being T:VS. As you know.
+:::I think my point about the anthology suffices to show the two cases aren't analogous. The unprecedented situation you're discussing is just that, unprecedented, and so isn't covered by the T:CS/T:VS distinction imo. We'd just discuss it at the time. (Hell, [[Deadline (audio story)]], probably the closest analogue, is valid! I think your idea that it would be covered as invalid is the least likely option, people would be very keen on seeing it as valid just from the branding alone.) Moreover, I'm not sure why adding it to a ''heading on iPlayer'' 10 years after the fact in any way impacts the point I'm making. It seems to just completely misunderstand it. Were it to have been originally published there? You know, fair enough. But to be added 10 years later?
+::::considered grounds for coverage of the Derbyshire documentary
+:::Funnily enough, I can't find any discussion of this one. Still not analogous, because one was released as a discrete product sold to consumers, the other was put in a heading on a website, while the website as a whole was given as a service to those who paid their fee. Under the latter model, I don't see how, for instance, if someone accidentally put Emmerdale under the tab, we'd not be forced to validate it. (fwiw, I think we should have ''covered'' that documentary when it was released, I just still think it violates R2, and that in itself doesn't mean we shouldn't cover it.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:12, 21 July 2024 (UTC)