Trusted
8,412
edits
(22 intermediate revisions by 7 users not shown) | |||
Line 308: | Line 308: | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 313: | Line 317: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 321: | Line 324: | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 326: | Line 332: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|[[User: | |[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 332: | Line 338: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|{{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} | |{{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 346: | Line 355: | ||
|{{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} | |{{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 351: | Line 364: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 360: | Line 372: | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 372: | Line 387: | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 377: | Line 395: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|[[User: | |[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 385: | Line 403: | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|[[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 398: | Line 419: | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 403: | Line 426: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|[[User: | |[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 411: | Line 434: | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 416: | Line 442: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 424: | Line 449: | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 429: | Line 456: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|[[User: | |[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 437: | Line 464: | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 442: | Line 472: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
Line 450: | Line 479: | ||
|[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] [[User talk:Cookieboy 2005|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | |{{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} | ||
|[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
|[[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
}} | }} | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
Line 455: | Line 486: | ||
|{{PS | |{{PS | ||
|[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |[[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
|[[User: | |[[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | ||
}} | }} | ||
|} | |} | ||
I think that covers all our bases. The results of the above shouldn't be taken as ''absolutely binding'' for the closing admin, but should at the very least be taken into consideration. We've had a lot of arguments back and forth, a lot of hypotheticals — this is one of those rare cases where it'd be useful to know who, actually, supports what. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | I think that covers all our bases. The results of the above shouldn't be taken as ''absolutely binding'' for the closing admin, but should at the very least be taken into consideration. We've had a lot of arguments back and forth, a lot of hypotheticals — this is one of those rare cases where it'd be useful to know who, actually, supports what. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | ||
====Post table page break==== | ====Post table page break==== | ||
: If someone(s) is willing to put in the effort to cover these stories, I do support their coverage. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 15:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | : If someone(s) is willing to put in the effort to cover these stories, I do support their coverage. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 15:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | ||
Line 471: | Line 503: | ||
:: I'm also unsure what you mean about "massive implications for an in-universe Wiki". The ''Dirk Gently'' stories are small-scale science fiction which don't do anything more radical to the fabric of the universe than the average episode of SJA at most. I can see how one would balk at covering all of ''Hitchhiker's'' or the like, but ''Gently'' — with the possible exception of Barnett, but then I still hesitate to support coverage of ''that'' — ''Gently'' as Adams envisioned and wrote it is pretty painless. (Not that I agree that should be taken into consideration in an inclusion debate; we are here to cover faithfully and unflinchingly, not ever to editorialise.) --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | :: I'm also unsure what you mean about "massive implications for an in-universe Wiki". The ''Dirk Gently'' stories are small-scale science fiction which don't do anything more radical to the fabric of the universe than the average episode of SJA at most. I can see how one would balk at covering all of ''Hitchhiker's'' or the like, but ''Gently'' — with the possible exception of Barnett, but then I still hesitate to support coverage of ''that'' — ''Gently'' as Adams envisioned and wrote it is pretty painless. (Not that I agree that should be taken into consideration in an inclusion debate; we are here to cover faithfully and unflinchingly, not ever to editorialise.) --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | ||
::: I disagree with covering the two television series but ''sighs'' current policy seems to me to say that they should be covered and valid, and it'd be a bit of a pain if we didn't, what with the comics, which we can't really avoid covering, if we are to consider Chronotis a DWU element, which we would be silly not to. I don't think this example should be really used as precedent except in certain cases, which should be discussed on a case-by-case basis, with long forum threads such as this one. | ::: I disagree with covering the two television series but ''sighs'' current policy seems to me to say that they should be covered and valid, and it'd be a bit of a pain if we didn't, what with the comics, which we can't really avoid covering, if we are to consider Chronotis a DWU element, which we would be silly not to. I don't think this example should be really used as precedent except in certain cases, which should be discussed on a case-by-case basis, with long forum threads such as this one. | ||
::: @[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] The stage play can't be valid under current policy, no, I think the option is only there so that the option can be shown in the rest of the table. {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 16:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | ::: @[[User:Cookieboy 2005|Cookieboy 2005]] The stage play can't be valid under current policy, no, I think the option is only there so that the option can be shown in the rest of the table. {{User:Aquanafrahudy/Sig}} 16:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | ||
::: (The Doctor is to the Surgeon is to Dirk Gently as the Cybermen is to the Time Lords is to Chronotis's species) The massive implications is that if we cover the first novel, what really is keeping us from covering the rest? Our current policy (the skeleton of which was established before we sought to include any and all franchises that we could) would establish Dirk as the lead of a Doctor Who spin-off, a la Captain Jack or Bernice Summerfield, and thus would justify coverage of the whole franchise on the Wiki because he's a licensed character that has splintered off. That's 2.5 books, two distinct television series, the radioplays, a stageplay, and a Douglas Adams documentary(?), all of which have characters and settings and whatnot -- and that leaves alone the inevitability of "Well, Hitchhiker's Guide is already pretty connected to the DWU, and we've already got Dirk Gently, which is connected to Hitchhiker's Guide, so we should really cover Hitchhiker's Guide too." I am comfortable covering ''Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency'' if it stopped there, but the truth is I don't trust that it would. As for the use of St. Cedd's in ''The Five Doctors'', it wasn't named, it is merely the backdrop of Emmanuel College. I'm not inclined to say the existence of a real building in the background is a sufficient use for the purposes of coverage. In fact, it's that kind of spurious connection to promote coverage that makes me skeptical about letting in ''Dirk Gently'' at all. [[User:Dewinter|Dewinter]] [[User talk:Dewinter|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
: @Aquanafrahudy, just to be sure, where would you stand on 'Episode 2' even if you were to otherwise come down on the side of not covering the TV series? | : @Aquanafrahudy, just to be sure, where would you stand on 'Episode 2' even if you were to otherwise come down on the side of not covering the TV series? | ||
Line 493: | Line 525: | ||
: But secondly, and more importantly, it ''isn't'' a one-of-a-kind black-swan event. ''[[Lytton (series)|Lytton]]'' exists. I just don't see why we should assume sketchiness-by-default with Chronotis, but ''not'' with Lytton. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | : But secondly, and more importantly, it ''isn't'' a one-of-a-kind black-swan event. ''[[Lytton (series)|Lytton]]'' exists. I just don't see why we should assume sketchiness-by-default with Chronotis, but ''not'' with Lytton. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | ||
::"Sketchy" in this case for me is more Milesian than Baggsian. I think there's enough that's different that he could reasonably get away with it, especially given the nature of ''Shada''. (And let's be honest, the BBC wouldn't have remembered ''The Legacy of Gallifrey''.) Which is why he had to get rid of the Jagaroth reference more definitively. | |||
::As for Lytton, well, don't threaten me with a good time. (I note that the forums were closed the month the first one was published. :P) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:43, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::@Najawin: Trying to pass Professor Chronotis and Professor Chronotis as legally different characters seems to me more akin to ''The Killing Stone'' than to anything Miles has ever done. If the names weren't the same, perhaps… But a made-up name like Chronotis (and make no mistake, it ''is'' an original coinage, even if it obviously has Greek roots), with the exact same gimmick of being a forgetful old English professor whose apartments are secretly a half-busted time machine? Really now; that seems every bit as sketchy as saying "well, yes, my story does feature a time-travelling supervillain with a goatee called the Master, but it's okay, it's ''my version'' of the Master". | |||
:::And I scarcely know how to express to you how ludicrous the idea sounds to me that ''Lytton'' might be fanfic. Cutaway is as prestige and profesh as the non-BBC EU gets. They don't joke about. They've taken pains with ''[[Sutekh (series)|Sutekh]]'' to communicate how they're ''not'' infringing on the BBC license, for example. We also know they dropped a whole plotline because they couldn't make the licensing work, namely the idea of throwing in the War Chief and the Aliens from ''The War Games'' into the opening storyline of ''[[Omega (series)|Omega]]''. Were I a betting sort I would, in a heartbeat, stake significant money on Lytton being above-board. But they have a contact email on their website; this seems like a dispute easily resolved, if it must come to that… (Regretfully I can't find anything like so direct a line to the Douglas Adams Estate.) | |||
:::@Dewinter: I'd missed your post — remember to always write messages chronologically, even if you're responding to an earlier message! Yes, I realised that Cybermen="Chronotis's species", but it seemed to me that "some cyborgs" seemed vague in a way that Chronotis distinctly isn't. If the story featured a specific Cyberman ''character'', a Kroton or Mr Clever, and that characte appeared in creator-owned material that neither relied upon nor contradicted them being a Cyberman, then I think the analogy would hold. | |||
:::With regards to "if we cover the first novel, what really is keeping us from covering the rest": a binding ''ad hoc'' decision in this thread, that's what. A popular suggestion throughout this discussion has been to assert that all uses of DWU things in ''Dirk Gently'' media are "crossovers" rather than "spin-offs", perhaps by relying upon the (debatable, but defensible) extent to which ''Dirk Gently'' is an extension of the wider ''Hitchhikers''verse. We might thus say that we cover every Dirk Gently story that has Chronotis or St Cedd's in it, without concerning ourselves with further uses of whatever concepts debut therein. Depending on whether we look at individual stories or subseries, this might mean covering as little as four ''Dirk Gently'' stories (discounting the direct stage play and radio adaptations of the original, but I think those would be a given even if we covered "only the original" as in your hypothetical). Even a more generous reading of that proposal would still save us the trouble of covering the Barnett TV show. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Lytton was their first work, is my comment there, and it was simply something we never litigated at the time, due to circumstances. Again, my position on this sort of thing is "guilty until proven innocent", but Cutaway's subsequent work would move my needle were we to actually have an inclusion debate on Lytton ''now''. (I don't deny the ''possibility'' that Dirk Gently was licensed in the relevant manner, I just think it implausible, and the burden of proof is well and truly on the other side.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
: Perhaps of some note, [https://www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-features/time-after-time-a-history-of-shada-from-the-essential-doctor-who here] we have a page on the official doctorwho.tv website acknowledging Chronotis's appearance in ''Dirk Gently''. The phrasing seems extremely hard to reconcile with any theory that the BBC understand Book!Chronotis to be a distinct character for legal purposes, merely speaking of the way his status as a Time Lord is dropped: | |||
:: ''Shada’s next reappearance came in an even more unexpected form, when Douglas Adams cannibalised parts of his script – including Professor Chronotis, no longer a Time Lord but still a Cambridge academic with a time machine in his study – for his 1987 novel ''Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency''. Two decades later, the book would be adapted for BBC Radio 4, starring Henry Enfield as Gently and Andrew Sachs as Chronotis.'' | |||
: This doesn't ''strictly speaking'' constitute confirmation that Adams was within his rights to reuse the same Chronotis used in ''Shada'', but come on. This is not how a BBC source would address what they understood to be an infringement on their property; nor would they so casually equate the two if they subscribed to the sort of tortured "Prof. Chronotis (DG) is legally not at all the same character as Prof. Chronotis (''Shada'')" reading you've outlined. I think to any reasonable analysis, for your theory to be correct, the author of that BBC article would have to be wrong. It would be another thing if you had opposing topic-specific circumstantial evidence, but in fact, you only have a simplified, outsider understanding of ''general policies about script editors' copyrights'' to point to. In a world where no one's even really sure how the rights to the Daleks work these days, I just don't think that sort of received wisdom about How Things Work should warrant disregarding an actual article on www.doctorwho.tv and insisting on seeing a copyright dispute where decades' worth of BBC and franchise lawyers have evidently seen none that they saw fit to comment on publicly or take action about. | |||
: Besides, the idea that licensing cases are "guilty until proven innocent" is one which does not align with Wiki policy as I understand it, in the first place. In most cases, loosely proportional to the reputability of the publishers, we accept claims by publishers at face value, without trying to "double-check" them — and prominently ''using'' a DWU character in-story has typically been treated as a ''de facto'' claim on the part of the publisher. Indeed, despite [[User:CzechOut]]'s initial prejudice against (but then — he's CzechOut), the book was not closed on ''The Killing Stone'' at [[Forum:BBV and canon policy]] until comments were found from Franklin's own mouth which supported the idea that the BBV version was copyright-infringing. Something stressed for both ''Concept of War'' and ''Do You Have A License…'' is that we shouldn't bandy claim of unlicensedness about without a hard source; at best, when there is strong but inconclusive circumstantial evidence, we can elect to treat a work ''as if it were'' unlicensed ''but with clear public disclaimers that we aren't actively claiming it is''. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I wasn't considering it to be unlicensed in the same sense as ''Killing Stone''. I'm really not sure how many times I need to repeat that. The website does move the needle though. I'll rethink coverage based on it. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::: NGL I do not feel comfortable with a "guilty until proven innocent" approach in regards to to licensing. While we occasionally have bad actors (see Baggs) there is a strong track record of publishers doing their due-dilligence, and, frankly, I feel that such practices could lead to harmful disinformation that could actually damage the livelihood of smaller publishers. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 20:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
(@Najawin, well, I know ''you'' don't, I just don't think the average human person who is ''not'' you would align with that "he's not the BBC Chronotis but it's okay" reading, such that to an outside view — very much including the kind of outside view that might have legal consequences for the Wiki if we were seen to be making a libelous claim) — describing your account of things would ''come across'' as an accusation of ill doing.) --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:38, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Epsilon. It was "guilty until proven innocent ''once we're in the situation where a script editor is using IP from their time as a script editor''". Which is a particularly niche situation and we do have ''some'' reason to adopt that perspective. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::What does a writers status as script editor have anything to do with it. Rob Holmes was script editor when he wrote all the serials that introduced his most famous concepts which were later independently licensed. Such as Sutekh and even Mr Sin from Talons of Weng-Chiang. If we do not assume innocence for Adams then we had might as well just throw out FP audios then. Maybe script editors in New Who have different rules but I do not see why we would expect them to apply to Classic. [[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:27, 19 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Don't know the situation on ''Talons'' in particular, but ''Pyramids'' is not at all similar. It was originally written by someone else, [[Lewis Greifer]]. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Well we do know that material created by script editors in the Classic era ''typically'' followed different copyright rules than work-for-hire, hence, for example, the BBC retaining ownership of most TV companions, or the Master, or the Time Lords. There are, I agree, prominent counter-examples, with ''Lytton'' only the most recent; but equally there ''is'' a long history of the pendulum swinging the other way. | |||
::(As for Sutekh, he's really his own kettle of dogfish. Not only was Holmes rewriting somebody else's script, but also, if you take away the BBC-designed mask, he's fundamentally a public domain character. You ''can'' cast Gabriel Woolfe as the Egyptian God Sutekh without anybody's permission, much as several people did Christopher Lee Dracula films without Hammer Productions; and indeed we know that's what Cutaway have officially done with ''[[Sutekh the Heretic (webcast)|Sutekh the Heretic]]''. It may well be what ''True History'' did as well; it might be notable that ''True History'' has Osirians instead of Osirans, and Servitors instead of Servicers. Then again it may not. Who knows? Magic Bullet's website offers no clarification; I don't think its coverage is in doubt either way.) --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Fine. In that case the [[Wirrn]] is another example then. There seems to be a difference between things an author introduces "as script editor" such as companions. Vs things they introduce "as a writer" like RTD with the Ood or Moffat with the Paternoster gang. In the end I think the whole thing is sufficiently vague that it is a waste of time to speculate on this stuff. [[User:WarDocFan12|WarDocFan12]] [[User talk:WarDocFan12|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:20, 19 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::So that's not ''quite'' true. Contracts changed between the old show and the new, we know that very definitively. The Ood and the Paternoster gang were written by the Showrunners as Writers, which means that they get to have their name attached when the BBC uses them (and they might get some royalties, idk), but the BBC retains full control over them. Again, ''Ark'' was originally written by someone else, [[John Lucarotti]]. It's also not really relevant to this thread, given Scrooge has provided enough evidence to compel me here. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I have some information about the rights of Shada that comes from the gallifrey guardian in DWM #176. The passage reads "Douglas Adams’ three serials The Pirate Planet, City of Death and the unfinished Shada - also have problems both financial and personal in nature. ... Following the abandonment of the strike-hit Shada project as a television story, Adams subsequently reused some of its concepts in his book Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency. '''Since the script remained his copyright, he was fully entitled to do this.''' Adams says he was not happy with the final script for Shada, describing it as “a patch-work quilt of a story” and it was not the story he wanted to write." (emphasis my own) [[User:Neverlast999|Neverlast999]] [[User talk:Neverlast999|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:54, 2 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Were the above not already compelling, this certainly would be. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:10, 2 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
=== Hitchhiker's === | === Hitchhiker's === |