Forum:Artifacts or Artefacts of Rassilon?: Difference between revisions

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Forum:Artifacts or Artefacts of Rassilon? (edit)

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+{{archive|Panopticon archives}}[[category:spelling debates]]
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 ::::Because it's also the UK spelling. At least according to the Oxford English Dictionary, going back at least as far as the copy I have from the 70s (which is older than Shada). Oddly, although my OED says "artefact" is obsolete in British English and chiefly Australian in modern usage, my Random House American says "artefact" is chiefly UK. I'll bet in Australia they call it a South African spelling. :) --[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 12:28, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 :::::Um, we have a variety of category names with the spelling "artefact".  Can we have a policy ruling on which way the word is to be spelled so those category names can be changed?   [[:Category:Gallifreyan artefacts]], [[:Category:Human artefacts]] and probably a couple more.  '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]'''  [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 18:50, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
+::::::On the other hand, at least one article ([[Rod of Rassilon]]) is in the non-existent Artifacts category.
+::::::Doesn't [[The Invasion of Time]] specifically refer to Gallifreyan art(i|e)facts? If so, maybe we could look for the official subtitles for that and/or the novelization. If it agrees with Shada, we're set. If not... someadmin can make a judgment call and we make them all consistent, I guess? Either way, we probably need add redirects for the other spelling. --[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 21:01, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
+:::::::Here was I thinking this was an easy fix.
+:::::::Artefact is an Australian usage, according to my 'The Australian Concise English Dictionary', it does list 'artifact' but just says 'see artefact'.
+:::::::I would p<script type="text/javascript" src="/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Functions.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript"></script>refer to go with text based sources for this one ''and'' have the subtitles to back it up (after all the subtitles spell TARDIS 'Tardis'). --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 12:27, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
+::::::::OK, I searched through as much as I could (I don't have everything) for all instances of either spelling. The only mentions of the Artifacts of Rassilon I found were the Shada script book and the fan club novelization of Shada. I could have sworn that term first appeared in The Deadly Assassin, but it's in neither the subtitles nor the novelization, nor is it in the novelization for The Invasion of Time.... But the word in general is used many times. Unfortunately, the results aren't very illuminating.
+::::::::*Early Virgin books used the "i" spelling almost exclusively. There are only two exceptions before [[The Also People]]. From that point on, the two were used interchangeably, sometimes even in the same book. Official synopses (and therefore presumably press releases and the like) always used only the "i" spelling.
+::::::::*BBC Books used the "e" spelling almost exclusively in the EDAs and PDAs, and most of the exceptions are on covers. I didn't find either spelling in any official synopses. None of the NSAs I have use the word at all.
+::::::::*Target Books used both spellings interchangeably--never within the same book, but you can find back-to-back books that alternate, and books by the same author with both spellings.
+::::::::*Subtitles use the "i" spelling, but the word is only in 2 episodes that I have, 1 being unofficial subtitles for the Shada VHS reconstruction (which also contains the typo "arifact").
+::::::::*The New Zealand Doctor Who Fan Club uses the "i" spelling (for whatever that's worth).
+::::::::*Overall, counting the whole corpus, "artefact" appears in more sources, but "artifact" appears more times (largely because of a few early NAs).
+::::::::It looks like, contrary to what the OED or any other dictionary says, both spellings are alive and well in the UK, and both are plentiful in Doctor Who texts. (Also, I should mention that the OED and their usage guide have been accused of having a bit of a prescriptivist bent, and refer to various things as "preferred" even though actual usage is closer to 50/50.) So, now what? --[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 02:52, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
+:::::::::Well...(excellent research by the way).
+:::::::::On the Virgin NAs I seem to recall reading somewhere (either ''Bernice Summerfield: The Inside Story'' or on the now defunct Outpost Gallifrey forums) that the Virgin novels sometimes had an editorial lean towards American spellings of words / usage.
+:::::::::We can't really use how many 'artifact' appears as a ruling, because as you say in those early NAs it could be used dozens of times in a small group of novels. So what makes more sense is to go with 'artefact' which appears over a greater number of sources, which should indicate it's in greater use rather than the use of 'artifact' in a few source which could be editorial bias towards that spelling. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:53, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
+::::::::::Skimming over the [http://nitro9.earth.uni.edu/doctor/guide.html Virgin writers' guide], it looks like they were (at least officially) thoroughly UK, but also very definitely OED. Even though all they say is to pick a dictionary and stick to it, without saying which one, some of their spelling rules are unique to the OED (most obviously "-ize" words, which every other major British dictionary calls chiefly American). So, that may be why they went with "artifact", at least early on.
+::::::::::And you're right that a small number of books make up most of the uses of the word, in both spellings.
+::::::::::Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, there's really no good answer other than "make one of the admins pick one even if they have to flip a coin, use it consistently, and add redirects for the other", and you're an admin, so I'm happy. --[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 19:39, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
+::When you have a ruling, lemme know.  The actual changeover is easy.  (FWIW, I'd plump for "artifact", simply because if it's half-used by the Brits and 100% used by the Americans, the majority of people will actually know that spelling.  No sense in being ''so'' correct that we introduce spellings that a lot of our users just won't see as "right".  Another way of putting it is that "artifact" will create far fewer edit wars, really.  You can win the point on ''-our'', and ''-ise'', and maybe even ''-yse'', but you'll never convince the majority of users that ''artefact'' is correct, especially when some source material uses ''artifact''.) '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]'''  [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 19:43, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
+Just received Kamelion Tales in the post... and guess what's on the back cover of Planet of Fire - "Among her possessions is an '''artefact''' bearing...". I vouch for "artefact". '''[http://doctor-who-collectors.wikia.com/wiki/User:Tardis1963 <span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]''' 07:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
+:Just added the cover blurb from [[Dreamland]] to the DWCW, and checking it I noticed they too use 'artefact' - "When the Doctor examines an extraterrestrial '''artefact''', he draws the attention...". '''[http://doctor-who-collectors.wikia.com/wiki/User:Tardis1963 <span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]''' 01:55, July 11, 2010 (UTC)
+==It's artefact==
+Just thought I'd better make my 'ruling' clear in amongst all this. As '''artefact''' appears in more sources, both in and out of universe it's the one we'll be using. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 14:01, July 12, 2010 (UTC)