Howling:The Daleks in "Day of the Daleks"

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The Daleks in "Day of the Daleks" evidently come from a time many centuries in the future, as they recognise the First and Second Doctors, but not the Third. So if they conquered Earth sometime in the late 20th/early 21st century, they must have travelled back in time from their home era......but surely that would cause a massive paradox in their history, likely eradicating the future they came from? 82.2.136.93 19:25, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

The Daleks in Day of the Daleks come from the 22nd century but it's not clear from the broadcast story when they conquered Earth. The freedom fighters wanted to kill Sir Reginald Styles because they believed he'd blown up the peace conference and that resulted in a series of wars whose eventual effect was to leave Earth vulnerable to conquest. As the Doctor figured out, the explosion hadn't been caused by Styles -- he was an obnoxious, pompous ass but not a villain. It had been caused by the freedom fighters who were trying to kill him; they had brought about the very event they'd set out to prevent. As the Doctor told them, they'd set out to change history but had instead become part of it. The Doctor didn't stop the explosion from happening but did get UNIT to evacuate the delegates from the house (giving the Brigadier the chance to shout at Styles and order him about, which the Brigadier seemed to enjoy doing). Shura, one of the freedom fighters, waited until the Daleks were in the house, then blew them (and himself) up, instead of the delegates. The result was that history was changed -- redirected on to an alternate track in which the Dalek conquest didn't happen.

The whole story was an example of a "bootstrap" paradox being broken by the Doctor's intervention.

I'm not really sure what question(s) you're raising but I hope this helps. --89.242.67.85 02:07, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

If you watch the episodes, it looks like Letts and Marks intended us to see the Daleks and the human freedom fighters as being from the middle of The Dalek Invasion of Earth. The Daleks came back to try to prevent the humans from changing history, not to change history. They didn't have to worry about causing a paradox. Of course the humans did; maybe they were risking changing the past so much that they would cease to exist. But all they were risking was an existence under the thumb of the Daleks, which probably isn't much of a loss.

However, if you believe Terry Nation, there was a lot more going on. (And, even though Nation had no involvement with this story, and never wrote the followup story he was thinking about, John Peel later used it in the novel War of the Daleks. Besides, if the creator of the Daleks isn't allowed to fanwank Dalek continuity, who is?)

In the original timeline, the Daleks invaded Earth in 2142 (in The Dalek Invasion of Earth—yes, everyone but Terry knows 2142 is contradicted on-screen, and his whole reason for insisting on that date was that he doesn't know what years the London Blitz happened, but humor him), and were kicked off in 2152. They couldn't abide losing to the pathetic low-tech humans like that, so they decided to go back in time and change history. And they were fully aware that everyone involved in the plan might cease to exist, but ask any Dalek whether he'd trade his own existence away to make the Dalek Empire as a whole stronger, and what do you think he'd say?

Unfortunately for them, all they accomplished was to create an alternate timeline. In that alternate timeline, the invasion was a success, and humanity never recovered from the 2142 invasion. But the original timeline still existed, unchanged, and that's where the Daleks who'd created the plan (and the Daleks in all later stories, and possibly even some of the earlier ones) live. So as far as they know, the plan failed. (That's why they never tried to change history again, at least until the Last Great Time War.)

Anyway, at least the alternate-timeline Daleks were happy. Until the freedom fighters accidentally accomplished their mission (as described by 89 above), which wiped out that alternate timeline. --173.228.85.35 05:19, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

Well the Daleks in this story were intended by the writers to be from sometime after the events seen in "The Evil of the Daleks." There was a scene scripted and filmed for the story where the Daleks explain to the Third Doctor how they survived the war with the humanised Daleks at the end of the earlier story, but this scene was left on the cutting room floor for reasons of length. The Daleks in TEOTD seem to come from a time many hundreds, if not thousands of years in Earth's future. So if they invaded Earth sometime between the late 20th/early 22nd century, they must have gone back in time to do so. As I said, in DOTD, they recognise both the First and Second Doctors, but not the Third. Furthermore, prior to the Last Great Time War, the Daleks never went around causing time paradoxes that could disrupt their own timeline; that's what the Seventh Doctor seemed to think at the time of "Remembrance of the Daleks" anyway.

I feel it's also worth noting that the authors of "The Dalek Handbook" believe that the Daleks in "Frontier in Space" and "Planet of the Daleks" were time travellers from around the 41st century that had gone back to the 26th. I'm not sure what to make of this personally, it seems a bit doubtful somehow. 194.168.208.42 10:44, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

The Controller says that his family have served the Daleks for three generations as of the 22nd century; that would narrow the time of the Dalek invasion down to the 21st century. But by that time, the Daleks didn't know about the Doctor. They didn't recognise him in the year 2164, in "The Dalek Invasion of Earth." So how do they know who he is here, if they're from an alternate future? 82.2.136.93 20:39, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

"Furthermore, prior to the Last Great Time War, the Daleks never went around causing time paradoxes that could disrupt their own timeline." Actually, this is exactly what convinced John Peel of the necessity for the Terry Nation backstory. The Daleks had time travel, and yet they weren't changing history left and right. This can't be because they were concerned about the Time Lords' Laws of Time, or worried about collateral damage to the continuum, or bothered by the possibility of sacrificing their own existence for the greater good of the Dalek race, because none of those are things the Daleks would care about. So, it must be because at some point, they went to great lengths to change history, and as far as they could tell (not being able to detect the alternate timeline) it had no effect at all.

I never bought that, myself. The Daleks don't seem to have any fear of repeating their mistakes. ("Hey, let's bring Davros back again. I'm sure this time we can control him, despite what happened the last five times." "I obey!" And while you're fetching Davros, those humans keep beating us, so I'll try to find a way to incorporate some important part of humanity into our makeup. I'm sure this time it won't destroy our essential Dalekness, despite what happened the last five times." "What if I encounter the Doctor?" "Well, we could exterminate him, but I think we'll be perfectly safe just capturing him instead, despite what happened the last five times." "I obey!") Plus, even if you accep hat there must be one total failure to change history at some point early in Dalek history, there's still no reason to specifically connect it with either The Dalek Invasion of Earth or Day of the Daleks, much less both of them. But still, when you're talking about Dalek history, you have to at least consider what Terry Nation has to say, even if you ultimately disagree. --173.228.85.35 02:26, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's what the Seventh Doctor says in "Remembrance", so it must have been true up until then. 82.2.136.93 19:24, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

Did he say why the Daleks didn't go around changing history, or did he just say _that_ that don't go around trying to change history, and that's the part John Peel was trying to explain? --12.249.226.210 22:26, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

The Doctor, in Remembrance of the Daleks, was telling Ace off for having wandered around in 1963 with a 1980s tape deck (which a Dalek destroyed) and pointing out that, had a 1963 scientist got hold of the tape deck, the microprocessor revolution might have happened 20 years early. He said that the Daleks "ruthless as they are" would hesitate to make so drastic a change to the timeline. It needs to be remembered, however, that the Doctor was continually telling Ace off for one thing or another, while assuming she'd take no notice and, indeed, he frequently relied on her not taking any notice of what he said. In Silver Nemesis, there's a conversation between them in which the Doctor asks Ace if she has (as repeatedly instructed) stopped making nitro-9, she assures him she has done as he told her, he seeks further assurance that, even if she'd made the stuff, she'd not "do anything so insanely dangerous as to carry it around", she says she wouldn't and he concludes: "Excellent! Go and blow up that vehicle!" In that same story, he presents Ace with a replacement tape deck, made by himself, which is of a far more advanced technology than the original and which he happily lets her carry around. It's simply not safe to rely on the Doctor really meaning what he says, if what he's doing is chiding Ace. --89.242.72.177 22:53, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

As 89 implies, I don't think "Remembrance" was what John Peel was trying to explain; it was more the general fact that the Daleks never went around changing history in the classic series that he thought needed an explanation. --173.228.85.35 07:17, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I think "Day of the Daleks" would work a lot better if the Daleks there had never heard of the Doctor before, seeing as how they're supposed to originate from an entirely different timeline where none of the earlier Dalek stories happened. It's worth keeping in mind though, that this particular story originally didn't even have the Daleks in it; they were added more or less at the last minute, and some people have remarked on how it shows. 82.2.136.93 09:39, September 10, 2011 (UTC)