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| == User:Finister2 ==
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| | =2017= |
| | == Backstory == |
| | The backstory presented from ''Trial of the Valeyard'' is blatantly stated to be almost entirely false. It should almost certainly not be placed anywhere near the section describing his origins. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|Talk]]) 00:31, June 22, 2017 (UTC) |
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| I think, whoever plays the Twelfth Doctor will play the Valeyard during the Thirteenth Doctor's adventures.
| | :Agreed. Many premices in ''Trial of the Valeyard'' ignore the TV episodes ''Five Doctors'' (where the Master was offered more regenerations), the ''Ultimate Foe'' itself (where the Valeyard is offered the Doctor's remaining regenerations), and ''The Brain of Morbius'' (where the Doctors explains why the Time Lords have a limited number of regenerations: "Death is the price we pay for progress, you know." |
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| | :Here is the actual dialogue provided from a transcript of the show: |
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| == Dream Lord ==
| | :DOCTOR: Oh, I wouldn't think they're beyond a decent spectrograph, Maren. One could probably synthesise that stuff by the gallon, though the consequences would be appalling. |
| Since the [[Dream Lord]] has been compared to the Valeyard, it seems reasonable to speculate that maybe he's ''created'' as a result of the incident in [[Amy's Choice]], but remains a subconscious part of the Doctor and doesn't ''manifest as an entity'' until sometime between the Doctor's 12th and final incarnations. Just a thought, as it would seem to fit quite nicely at both ends, as it were. Then again, I know next to nothing of the Valeyard, so I could be way off :P -- [[User:Sorceror Nobody|Sorceror Nobody]] 18:23, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
| | :OHICA: What do you mean? |
| | :DOCTOR: What? Everyone trying to live forever? No. Death is the price we pay for progress, you know. |
| | :MAREN: You speak in riddles, Doctor. The Time Lords were glad enough of the Elixir. |
| | :DOCTOR: Only in rare cases. When, for instance, there's some difficulty in regenerating a body. '''We don't take it regularly like you, otherwise we'd fall into the same trap'''. |
| | :MAREN: And what trap are we in? |
| | :DOCTOR: Immortality. You must have been old when the Elixir was discovered. How many centuries have passed while you have remained unchanged. How long since anything here changed? |
| | :MAREN: '''Nothing here ever changes.''' |
| | :DOCTOR: '''Exactly my point. No progress.''' Please, stand back. |
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| I new of the character but not alot, I suppose the [[Dream Lord]] could be the [[The Valeyard]] as to have to dark sides that are so addament on defeating you does strike me as slightly odd. [[User:Danisfunny|Danisfunny]] 18:28, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
| | :These three episodes make the whole plot of ''Trial of the Valeyard'' nonsensical in the extreme.--[[User:BruceGrubb|BruceGrubb]] [[User talk:BruceGrubb|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:34, July 2, 2017 (UTC) |
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| | :: Why should a story that predates ''The Trial of a Time Lord'' dictate how ''Trial of the Valeyard'' be perceived. After all, with each new content into the ''Whoniverse'', something gets retconed in one way or the other. |
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| | In any even, after all is said and done in ''Trial of the Valeyard'', both the Doctor and Darkel agree that the Valeyard's story could have some truth to it. Indeed, the only confirmation to his origins in ''The Brink of Death'' is boiled down to "the Time Lords did it", leaving only his statement about the Thirteenth Doctor (or Eleventh Doctor) creating in doubt, but not eliminating the Shadow Houses from his origin.[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:59, July 5, 2017 (UTC) |
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| as much as I would like the Dream Lord to be the Valeyard, we have to face facts; they come from different backgrounds. The Valeyard was specifically stated to have come between the Doctor's 12th and 13th Incarnations whereas the Dream Lord is the essence of the Doctor's darker side in a dream state, so cannot exist in reality. Everyone is basically wanting it to happen as we want to see the Valeyard back for continuity, as do I, but the Dream Lord isn't The Valeyard [[User:Ooiue|Ooiue]] 07:16, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
| | =2020= |
| | ==12th and final== |
| | :"between his twelfth and final incarnations" |
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| :Solar Dragon added a discussion of this to the article, which I think belongs there.
| | Do we have some idea of which these could refer to? |
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| :Then anon IP 86.26.174.123 reverted it.
| | Final perhaps referring to [[ The Doctor (Alien Bodies)]] who came some time after [[Curator]] and [[Merlin]]... |
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| :Then Mini-mitch re-added it.
| | I'm guessing TWELFTH isn't necessarily meant to refer to Capaldi's [[Twelfth Doctor]] for example. These numbers we use just basically refer to numbering on the basis of "who has starred in a BBC TV show" rather than ALL incarnations... |
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| :Then anon IP 83.131.105.211 reverted it again. | | For example [[First Doctor]] not being true first, we could estimate what number (minimum) he would be on the basis of prior inferences: |
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| :I added it back. However, I think it might be better to just remove the line "The Valeyard and the Dream Lord may be the same person" than to leave it and explain why it's unlikely.
| | *1. [[The Other]] |
| | *2-9 [[ The Doctor (The Brain of Morbius)]] |
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| :Hopefully no one will change it again without some discussion here. | | With (at least) ten come before, I think this means the First Doctor is at LEAST the Eleventh, so "Twelfth" might actually refer to [[Second Doctor]] ? Meaning only the first of the 'numbered doctors' is possible excluded from the Valeyard amalgamation? [[User:Tycio|Tycio]] [[User talk:Tycio|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:13, November 5, 2020 (UTC) |
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| :Anyway, here's what the article says right now:
| | == Split == |
| | | Given that we have different pages for [[Yana]], [[Ruth Clayton]], [[John Smith (Seventh Doctor)]] and [[John Smith (Tenth Doctor)]], should we also have one for [[War Valeyard]]/[[The Doctor (The War Valeyard)]]? [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:22, 2 June 2022 (UTC) |
| *The Valeyard shares similarities with the [[Dream Lord]], who is also the dark side of the Doctor. The Valeyard and the Dream Lord may be the same person. ''This is unlikely as the Eleventh Doctor says the Psychic Pollen which created the Dream Lord is a mind parasite, and therefore is simply a microscopic alien using the Doctor's mind to create a mental form.''
| | : Particularly given that Jayston is credited as playing "The War Valeyard / The Trial Valeyard". [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 09:52, 31 January 2023 (UTC) |
| | | I mean… if we know of more than one incarnation of the Valeyard and we know their places in the time stream, as per "The Master Split" precedent, I fully support splitting the Valeyard. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:22, 31 January 2023 (UTC) |
| :--[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 13:07, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
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| ::Of course that didn't settle it. In fact, we ended up with two different and conflicting discussions of the Dream Lord, one under Notes and one under Behind the Scenes. At one point, one paragraph almost blatantly asserted that the Valeyard was a future form of the Dream Lord while the other dismissed it completely. That was fun.
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| ::I tried to merge the two of them together, and to leave in enough of the argument that the Valeyard might actually develop out of the Dream Lord that hopefully people won't see the need to keep adding it back in.
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| ::But really, it would be nice if people would discuss contentious things on the Talk page rather than keep changing the article back and forth.... --[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 00:56, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
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| ==A conundrum==
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| I've just thought of something....if the Valeyard really is the dark side of the Doctor between 12 and 13, then why is it he went back to Trial of a Time Lord to try and put his earlier half-self on trial if he had all the memories of that event? i say half-self because he partly is the Doctor and partly isnt. If he possessed all the memories of the Doctor which is likely, why did he go to the trouble of going to Trial of a Time Lord in the first place if he knew he would lose?[[User:Ooiue|Ooiue]] 07:24, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
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| :History can be changed. --[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 13:08, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
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| :[[User:Finister2]] - Perhabs the regeneration that created the Valeyard cause short term amniseia, preventing the Valeyard of remebering most of his life as the Doctor.
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| :The Valeyard changed history. In the original time line, Trial of a Timelord didn't happen, so the Valeyard didn't remember it. He went back in his own timeline, changing history during the events of Trial of a Timelord.Icecreamdif 01:05, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
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| ==So, wait, um...==
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| How does this work with the events of Impossible Astronaut? --[[User:Jakezing2|Mikalosa209]] 03:47, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
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| :WOAH! WOAH! WAIT STOP! You didn't actually believe for one single second that he was actually dead did you? I mean, it's wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that THEY PULLED THIS TRICK ON US BEFORE! ([[TV]]: [[The Stolen Earth]]/[[Journey's End]], [[COMIC]]: ''[[The Final Chapter (comic story)|The Final Chapter]]'', ''[[Wormwood]]) [[User:OttselSpy25|OttselSpy25]] <sup>[[User talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me]]</sup> 23:22, October 18, 2011 (UTC)''
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| ::A better point to make might be: How does this work with the Big Bang Two? I'm pretty sure we haven't seen the end of the continuity that the Moff pulled out from under us (and, looking at the Daleks, to slide something interesting right back in there) with that one.--[[User:ComicBookGoddess|ComicBookGoddess]] [[User talk:ComicBookGoddess|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:57, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
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| ==unrelated topic.==
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| Hi, this is my first discussion, so please go easy on me haha!
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| I thought I would start a discussion on something I felt might not have been discussed before. We all know the amazing 11 actors who have portrayed the Doctor since its inception in 1963. But of course, there are much lesser known characterisations and I was wondering if we could compile a list between us of these unsung actors.
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| Firstly, there is of course the wonderful Peter Cushing, who played the Doctor (another version of William Hartnell's character, as the Doctor hadn't 'renewed/regenerated' at this point) in the 2 Dalek films from the 1960's).
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| Then, I've heard that Trevor Howard (who I know best from the classic Brief Encounter) played the Doctor in a stage play - and apparently regenerated at the beginning! Of course, this isn't 'canon,' so I won't get excited about how this effects continuity ;-)
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| There's people like Rowan Atkinson, who played him in a spoof in the '90's, and various evil 'strains' of the Doctor that have been presented, such as the Dreamlord in the recent series and the Valeyard from the time of the 6th Doctor.
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| Any more obscure characterisations?
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| Thanks for a great page!
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| Tim
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| :This seemed to be more of something for a blog. --OS24 01:49, November 28, 2011 (UTC) | |
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| ==Valeyard Chronology==
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| This is my first talk as well, so, if I've screwed something up, that's why.
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| What I wonder is if the Valeyard is a) an *actual* incarnation of the Doctor, meaning we'll see him again, and/or b) will the Valeyard occur no matter what?
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| Is the Valeyard one of the Doctor's 13 forms? Every description of him begins with 'a manifestation of his dark side between his 12th and 13th incarnations,' but doesn't explain whether this is simply a bit of his dark side that gained semi-concrete form (like the Dream Lord [though, in the case of the Valeyard, there was no explanation as to how he came to be]) or his *actual* final incarnation. I personally do hope so, if only because that would be one heck of an interesting episode (say the 12th Doctor had to stop something the 13th Doctor [Valeyard] does in his own timeline).
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| With regards to b) in my first blurb, it doesn't seem right: yes, the Doctor has some inner darkness (a bit of taunting as Lord President as the 4th Doctor, ready to murder the Space Whale as the 11th, beyond loathing of the Daleks as the 11th) and once in a while loses control ("A Good Man Goes to War"), but he is willing to sacrifice himself for a friend (9th and at least twice as the 10th) or the entire universe (the 11th); although quirks and idiosyncrasies change after regenerations, core elements of a Time Lord's personality remain the same (or at least so claims Wikipedia). Why then would someone perfectly willing to sacrifice himself become so evil in the face of death? He hasn't before.
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| Note: the 9th Doctor does claim to be able to see all possible futures when Rose has the Time Vortex in her head during his final episode, so it's possible he always did know he *might* survive, and, as the Valeyard, realizes death is unavoidable as it's his final incarnation.
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| With regards to the 'Is the Dream Lord the Valeyard?' discussion above, the Valeyard is repeatedly said to be a manifestation of the Doctor's dark side. Whether or not he is also an incarnation, he is the Doctor's dark side, just like the Dream Lord; they both come from the same place. While I doubt they are the same person (e.g., that the Valeyard would retain the Dream Lord's personality/memories), they have the same source.
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| Regards,
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| Daniel
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| == Novelization vs TV ==
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| Another wrinkle in figuring out the Valeyard is the novelization of Ultimate Foe has the the Master state "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation... Somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration". This is where part of where the whole Valeyard = 13th incarnation of Doctor theory comes from.--[[Special:Contributions/216.31.124.190|216.31.124.190]]<sup>[[User talk:216.31.124.190#top|talk to me]]</sup> 04:43, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
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| In the televised version, the line is "Twelfth and Final" and not Thirteenth. A technical matter, but whatever. The question is whether the novelization takes precedence over the televised story.[[Special:Contributions/75.191.239.179|75.191.239.179]]<sup>[[User talk:75.191.239.179#top|talk to me]]</sup> 00:26, May 7, 2013 (UTC)
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| :If they contradict each other, the television story takes precedence over the novelization. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:36, May 7, 2013 (UTC)
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| And of course, in the episode what the Master says is that "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you. The Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation."
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| The "theory" that the Valeyard is an actual future incarnation and not merely the Doctor's evil given form, albeit the evil of a future version, is something only hinted at in the novelization. Not the actual broadcast of The Ultimate Foe.[[Special:Contributions/75.191.239.179|75.191.239.179]]<sup>[[User talk:75.191.239.179#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:29, May 9, 2013 (UTC)
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| Ok so this Valeyard can be the doctor and not necessarily an incarnation of the doctor at the same time. Does anyone remember the hand of the doctor that was cut off??? it regenerated into a copy of the Tennant doctor ravaged by war, this doctor could easily end up as the older and volatile john hurt doctor. just because he was left in a parallel universe does not mean that he didn't create himself another Tardis and sidestep back into ours as this Valeyard, meaning all of the doctors are true and also gives way to this nemesis being made manifest now that is the more likely answer as although he is in the doctors history he technically isn't one of the doctor previous regenerations only a copy of one and by all theories not the doctor at all. (looks like this is 2.97.69.63)
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| I agree with Shambala--any reason not to make that change? Apparently the use of the quote from the novelization ("somewhere between your twelfth and final ''regeneration''"), rather than that of the TV episode ("somewhere between your twelfth and final ''incarnation''") is a source of confusion. See this conversation in the Howling and the post by Draconim [http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Howling:John_Hurt_is_the_Valeyard_theory?t=20130614021826]. For clarification, seems better to use the quote from the TV episode on this page, rather than the novelization. Especially since we're getting close to Twelve and theories will be all over the place.
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| [[User:Andbeonetraveler|Andbeonetraveler]] [[User talk:Andbeonetraveler|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:40, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
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| == New information from the Name of the Doctor ==
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| With the revelation of John Hurt at the end of TNOTD , this could mean that matt smith is the twelfth incarnation of the doctor. Furthermore, it was announced that he will be leaving at christmas. I believe that the dream lord will gain physical form by using the eleventh doctors regeneration energy, or something along thos lines. The dream lord is still lying dormant in the doctors mind, and was created during 11's tenure, who is now 12, so he would manifest himself in between his 12th and 13th incarnations, as stated before. I think it would fit in well and would make sense, and also the fact that the GI mentioned the valeyard in TNOTD. {{unsigned-anon|109.77.113.49}}
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| The idea of John Hurt as the ninth Doctor, making Chris the tenth, David the eleventh and Matt the twelfth, is only a theory. Please don't see it as a canon. [[User:Puchplimmirdeyslithin|Puchplimmirdeyslithin]] [[User talk:Puchplimmirdeyslithin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:42, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
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The backstory presented from Trial of the Valeyard is blatantly stated to be almost entirely false. It should almost certainly not be placed anywhere near the section describing his origins. OS25 (Talk) 00:31, June 22, 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed. Many premices in Trial of the Valeyard ignore the TV episodes Five Doctors (where the Master was offered more regenerations), the Ultimate Foe itself (where the Valeyard is offered the Doctor's remaining regenerations), and The Brain of Morbius (where the Doctors explains why the Time Lords have a limited number of regenerations: "Death is the price we pay for progress, you know."
- Here is the actual dialogue provided from a transcript of the show:
- DOCTOR: Oh, I wouldn't think they're beyond a decent spectrograph, Maren. One could probably synthesise that stuff by the gallon, though the consequences would be appalling.
- OHICA: What do you mean?
- DOCTOR: What? Everyone trying to live forever? No. Death is the price we pay for progress, you know.
- MAREN: You speak in riddles, Doctor. The Time Lords were glad enough of the Elixir.
- DOCTOR: Only in rare cases. When, for instance, there's some difficulty in regenerating a body. We don't take it regularly like you, otherwise we'd fall into the same trap.
- MAREN: And what trap are we in?
- DOCTOR: Immortality. You must have been old when the Elixir was discovered. How many centuries have passed while you have remained unchanged. How long since anything here changed?
- MAREN: Nothing here ever changes.
- DOCTOR: Exactly my point. No progress. Please, stand back.
- These three episodes make the whole plot of Trial of the Valeyard nonsensical in the extreme.--BruceGrubb ☎ 15:34, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
- Why should a story that predates The Trial of a Time Lord dictate how Trial of the Valeyard be perceived. After all, with each new content into the Whoniverse, something gets retconed in one way or the other.
In any even, after all is said and done in Trial of the Valeyard, both the Doctor and Darkel agree that the Valeyard's story could have some truth to it. Indeed, the only confirmation to his origins in The Brink of Death is boiled down to "the Time Lords did it", leaving only his statement about the Thirteenth Doctor (or Eleventh Doctor) creating in doubt, but not eliminating the Shadow Houses from his origin.BananaClownMan ☎ 13:59, July 5, 2017 (UTC)
- "between his twelfth and final incarnations"
Do we have some idea of which these could refer to?
Final perhaps referring to The Doctor (Alien Bodies) who came some time after Curator and Merlin...
I'm guessing TWELFTH isn't necessarily meant to refer to Capaldi's Twelfth Doctor for example. These numbers we use just basically refer to numbering on the basis of "who has starred in a BBC TV show" rather than ALL incarnations...
For example First Doctor not being true first, we could estimate what number (minimum) he would be on the basis of prior inferences:
With (at least) ten come before, I think this means the First Doctor is at LEAST the Eleventh, so "Twelfth" might actually refer to Second Doctor ? Meaning only the first of the 'numbered doctors' is possible excluded from the Valeyard amalgamation? Tycio ☎ 23:13, November 5, 2020 (UTC)
Given that we have different pages for Yana, Ruth Clayton, John Smith (Seventh Doctor) and John Smith (Tenth Doctor), should we also have one for War Valeyard/The Doctor (The War Valeyard)? Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 12:22, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Particularly given that Jayston is credited as playing "The War Valeyard / The Trial Valeyard". Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 09:52, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
I mean… if we know of more than one incarnation of the Valeyard and we know their places in the time stream, as per "The Master Split" precedent, I fully support splitting the Valeyard. Danniesen ☎ 10:22, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
