Talk:Bernice Summerfield: Difference between revisions

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Where's this idea...
{{ArchiveList}}
:''This section alludes to a timeline in which Bernice Summerfield travelled with the Doctor. Due to the intervention of Irving Braxiatel, who she met later, this timeline may no longer exist.''
...from?


Bernice alludes explictly to her time with the Doctor in her most recent novella collection and both of her two most recent audios refer frankly to the events of that time.
== Tabbed Infobox ==


Whatever changes have been made to Benny's life, this doesn't seem to be one of them.
{{Infobox Individual
--[[User:Richard Jones|Richard Jones]] 20:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
|image            = <gallery>
Bernice Tab 2.jpg|Young
Bernice Tab 1.jpg|Older
</gallery>
|alias            = '''''[[Bernice Summerfield's aliases|see list]]'''''
|species          = Human
|job              = Archaeologist}}
So, following the consensus at [[Tardis:Temporary_forums/Archive/Overhauling_image_policies|Temporary forum:Overhaling image policies]], and the added clarification at [[Tardis_talk:Temporary_forums/Archive/Overhauling_image_policies|the forum's talk page]], reopening this discussion is now approved.


:No idea (have removed it anyways). She also refers to the Doctor by name and Heaven in [[Death and the Daleks]] (and there's plenty of references back and forth throughout all the novels and audios). --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 06:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Now, we've had this debate many times and overwhelmingly I've felt that we've never left with anyone happy. The main strife has always been the disagreement about which Benny should be in the infobox: The Lee Sullivan 'Novel' Benny, or the Lisa Bowerman 'audio' Bernice. In the past, we've settled on using comic images which are occasionally off-model or poorly suited for either. As of this moment, the infobox image is a weird "compromise," where it's an illustration of the "Novel" Benny clearly intended to look like Lisa Bowerman. I feel this just gives a confused vibe, and doesn't help.


:: Thanks so much! A case could be made that references like the [[Death and the Daleks]] one happened before Brax's time-tweaks '''but''' that fact that she still remembers the Doctor in [[The Wake]], which is for now the end of the EvilBrax arc, is absolute proof that Benny's time with the Doctor is still intact. --[[User:Richard Jones|Richard Jones]] 21:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
BUT! Due to the aforementioned debate covering tabbed infobox images, I think I now have a solution. We have a tabbed gallery in the main box, which will include one image each of the two main "Benny" incarnations. I've selected two images, one from [[GRAPHIC]]: ''[[Untitled (We Are Time's Champions illustration)|Untitled]]'' by [[Lee Sullivan]] and the other from the inner illustrations of [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Blood & Steel (audio anthology)|Blood & Steel]]'', and used these for a conceptual tabbed gallery. I even tracked down [[DWM 267]] to scan the former myself.


'''Benny's age when her dad disappeared / when her mother died'''
The only controversial part here is that I've made the tabbed gallery "chronological," so the original Lee design appears first. But this helps display the two main incarnations of Miss Summerfield, and I feel is also really fun to switch back-and-forth between. Obviously, we could also get into the argument of if each of these images are '''''perfect'''''... But I think these are ultimately the right picks.
Impossible to pin down, is my thesis. Benny's always maintained that Isaac disappeared when she was 7. We know that Claire was alive at the time (''[[The Evacuation of Bernice Summerfield Considered as a Short Film by Terry Gilliam|The Evacuation of...]]'', in which Isaac has been gone for not more than six months, and Claire has just died; ''[[Return of the Living Dad]]'', in which Isaac is unaware of Claire's fate). Benny has sometimes said that she was '''orphaned''' at seven (in ''[[Return of the Living Dad]]'' and ''[[Love and War (novel)|Love and War]]''), but in ''[[The Extinction Event]]'' she states that she was eight when her mother died.


I think that the best reconciliation is that Claire Summerfield's death ocurred after Benny's eighth birthday, but not long afterwards. From grown-up Benny's point of view, there's not much difference between being (say) 7.9 years old versus being (say) 8.0 years old; Benny may not have really started thinking of herself as an eight-year-old yet.
Showing a more recent image of [[Lisa Bowerman]] lets us use tab terms that are in-universe. I think it would look a lot worse if it said "Illustrated" and "Live-action." I also just think we're not going to find a better illustration of Lee Sullivan's Benny design.
[[User:Nightsky|Nightsky]] 20:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


== What are YOU doing this weekend? ==
Please tell me what you all think! [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 03:09, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
Benny married Jason in the village of [[Cheldon Bonniface]], [[England]], on [[24th April]] [[2010]]. The wedding was attended by a host of guests from all space and time. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Happy Endings]]''). ''Anyone up for a party this weekend?[[User:ReTardis|ReTardis]] 17:10, April 22, 2010 (UTC)ReTardis''


: Would prefer Lisa Bowerman to be first, but it's not a battle I'm going to win here. Likewise, I actually think I would prefer "Illustrated" and Live-action", but the images here are ''perfect''. I bemoan the fact that the highest quality unobscured shot of Bowerman that fits our rules isn't in her traditional costume, but I'm sure that'll EVENTUALLY rectify itself. As it stands, I'm okay with this. [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)


==Dead and Buried?==
:: I support this change, and in particular I really appreciate the way the two proposed images overlap in head angle and eye placement. Like Memes I'm not sure if "Young" and "Older" are the best names for the tabs, but whatever we end up going with, this will be a big improvement to the page! – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 13:17, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
Shouldn't we have a page for the upcoming animation and add some info on this page?


==Image==
: I agree with these images, including the order, but I would label the tabs "Novel" and "Audio" (or perhaps "Prose" and "Audio"). The adaptation from one medium to the next is the real reason these two Bernices are distinct enough to be worth presenting side by side, so labelling them as if the reason were that she got older just feels a bit confusing. It would also open the door to adding tabs whenever a character naturally and visibly ages to some degree, which doesn't seem viable or quantifiable. And there are probably other characters who were first illustrated and were later cast - for example, Jason Kane. We'll want to be able to give them tabbed galleries that follow a consistent format, but it won't always be possible to fudge one medium's iteration as having aged into the other, so making it explicit that we're arranging them by medium seems important. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)


Since [[Irving Braxiatel]]'s profile picture is taken from ''[[Dead and Buried (webcast)|Dead and Buried]]'', I propose the same be done for Benny's picture. It's the closest either character has ever come to being onscreen. [[User:Slughorn42|Slughorn42]] [[User talk:Slughorn42|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:31, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
: I think a tabbed infobox is a wonderful idea, and those two images are really well picked. They actually offer a really good general view as to what Benny actually looks like, which is something the previous view infobox images failed to do in my opinion. As Benny is first and foremost a prose character, I think this order is the best possible one. I am not entirely sure "young" and "older" are the best titles, and maybe something more akin to which medium the images cover would be good (maybe something like "prose" or "audio" though both of these don't seem quite right either). That is, however, a small details, and the only flaw I can find in this proposal. Benny is a character that is dearest to my heart than just about any other fictional character, and I believe this would be a huge improvement to her page and coverage on this wiki. [[User:Liria10|Liria10]] [[User talk:Liria10|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
:The image you uploaded before was deleted for not having a license, but even so, it violates [[Tardis:Guide to images]]. We prefer infobox images to be closeups of the character's face. If you can find a closeup, you can post it here for consideration. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:18, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 
::: Okay, a full month since the last reply. I think a lot of people are burnt out on these discussions, and there's a lot of other ongoing threads elsewhere, of course; so it's only to be expected that this wouldn't get vast outpourings of support. But we've had a nice selection of people chiming in positively under the circumstances, with thoughtful commentary rather than just "yes that's nice", so I think the time has come to close this. It's just a very, very good idea. Such nicely-matched images are an occasion to be seized, and policy-wise, the major updates to our image policy were reason enough to revisit this.
 
::: So yes, '''we're implementing this''', and in accordance with suggestion, I'm going to go ahead and authorise the "Prose"/"Audio" tabs. This can be used in other analogous cases, but obviously, let's not carried away — for the time being stick with illustration-first, much-later-cast characters; let's not be adding images in every medium for every Doctor, or anything like ''that''. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 17:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 
== Dead link ==
 
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* http://www.sorddin.com/broadsword-old/issue4/twd4.html ([http://web.archive.org/web/20161002072458/http://www.sorddin.com/broadsword-old/issue4/twd4.html archive])
** In [[Bernice Summerfield]] on 2023-04-17 17:41:53, Not Found
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--[[User:Botgo50|Botgo50]] ([[User talk:Botgo50|my talk]], [[User talk:Bongolium500|operator's talk]]) 18:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:25, 6 June 2023

Archive.png
 Archives: #1

Tabbed Infobox[[edit source]]

So, following the consensus at Temporary forum:Overhaling image policies, and the added clarification at the forum's talk page, reopening this discussion is now approved.

Now, we've had this debate many times and overwhelmingly I've felt that we've never left with anyone happy. The main strife has always been the disagreement about which Benny should be in the infobox: The Lee Sullivan 'Novel' Benny, or the Lisa Bowerman 'audio' Bernice. In the past, we've settled on using comic images which are occasionally off-model or poorly suited for either. As of this moment, the infobox image is a weird "compromise," where it's an illustration of the "Novel" Benny clearly intended to look like Lisa Bowerman. I feel this just gives a confused vibe, and doesn't help.

BUT! Due to the aforementioned debate covering tabbed infobox images, I think I now have a solution. We have a tabbed gallery in the main box, which will include one image each of the two main "Benny" incarnations. I've selected two images, one from GRAPHIC: Untitled by Lee Sullivan and the other from the inner illustrations of AUDIO: Blood & Steel, and used these for a conceptual tabbed gallery. I even tracked down DWM 267 to scan the former myself.

The only controversial part here is that I've made the tabbed gallery "chronological," so the original Lee design appears first. But this helps display the two main incarnations of Miss Summerfield, and I feel is also really fun to switch back-and-forth between. Obviously, we could also get into the argument of if each of these images are perfect... But I think these are ultimately the right picks.

Showing a more recent image of Lisa Bowerman lets us use tab terms that are in-universe. I think it would look a lot worse if it said "Illustrated" and "Live-action." I also just think we're not going to find a better illustration of Lee Sullivan's Benny design.

Please tell me what you all think! OS25🤙☎️ 03:09, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Would prefer Lisa Bowerman to be first, but it's not a battle I'm going to win here. Likewise, I actually think I would prefer "Illustrated" and Live-action", but the images here are perfect. I bemoan the fact that the highest quality unobscured shot of Bowerman that fits our rules isn't in her traditional costume, but I'm sure that'll EVENTUALLY rectify itself. As it stands, I'm okay with this. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 02:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
I support this change, and in particular I really appreciate the way the two proposed images overlap in head angle and eye placement. Like Memes I'm not sure if "Young" and "Older" are the best names for the tabs, but whatever we end up going with, this will be a big improvement to the page! – n8 (☎) 13:17, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
I agree with these images, including the order, but I would label the tabs "Novel" and "Audio" (or perhaps "Prose" and "Audio"). The adaptation from one medium to the next is the real reason these two Bernices are distinct enough to be worth presenting side by side, so labelling them as if the reason were that she got older just feels a bit confusing. It would also open the door to adding tabs whenever a character naturally and visibly ages to some degree, which doesn't seem viable or quantifiable. And there are probably other characters who were first illustrated and were later cast - for example, Jason Kane. We'll want to be able to give them tabbed galleries that follow a consistent format, but it won't always be possible to fudge one medium's iteration as having aged into the other, so making it explicit that we're arranging them by medium seems important. PintlessMan ☎ 13:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
I think a tabbed infobox is a wonderful idea, and those two images are really well picked. They actually offer a really good general view as to what Benny actually looks like, which is something the previous view infobox images failed to do in my opinion. As Benny is first and foremost a prose character, I think this order is the best possible one. I am not entirely sure "young" and "older" are the best titles, and maybe something more akin to which medium the images cover would be good (maybe something like "prose" or "audio" though both of these don't seem quite right either). That is, however, a small details, and the only flaw I can find in this proposal. Benny is a character that is dearest to my heart than just about any other fictional character, and I believe this would be a huge improvement to her page and coverage on this wiki. Liria10 ☎ 22:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Okay, a full month since the last reply. I think a lot of people are burnt out on these discussions, and there's a lot of other ongoing threads elsewhere, of course; so it's only to be expected that this wouldn't get vast outpourings of support. But we've had a nice selection of people chiming in positively under the circumstances, with thoughtful commentary rather than just "yes that's nice", so I think the time has come to close this. It's just a very, very good idea. Such nicely-matched images are an occasion to be seized, and policy-wise, the major updates to our image policy were reason enough to revisit this.
So yes, we're implementing this, and in accordance with suggestion, I'm going to go ahead and authorise the "Prose"/"Audio" tabs. This can be used in other analogous cases, but obviously, let's not carried away — for the time being stick with illustration-first, much-later-cast characters; let's not be adding images in every medium for every Doctor, or anything like that. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 17:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Dead link[[edit source]]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

The web page has been saved by the Internet Archive. Please consider linking to an appropriate archived version: [1]. --Botgo50 (my talk, operator's talk) 18:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

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